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Found these specs. This prototype not only added CDs but was also supposed to be a 32-bit enhancement too. This was rumored to be released in 1994. I wonder if this had any influence on the 32x's development and release.
I never realized before that it had to use the SNES cartridge slot. I also find it interesting that the CDs were in plastic cases with a Nintendo piracy/lockout chip.
http://i49.tinypic.com/2up8vog.jpg
Nintendo seemed to take more risks than Sega, but they are still around, the had much more money and popularity than Sega, sadly. Actually no, I wouldn't have it any other way, RIP, into the ages.
So, the SNES CD, I wonder if it would have done well, maybe Nintendo wasn't ready for CDs though, they kept using cartridges for the N64 and even the N64DD. I think Sega's problem was that they were always trying to be hip and ahead of the game, only to fall behind in their last console, jumping the gun and releasing a console without DVD capabilities, the Gamecube released after the Dreamcast did well because it was nintendo I think...and good games!
-I was going to delete all that rant I just typed but I guess there's no harm in posting anyways. ;)
N64DD used magnetic disks, not ROM cartridges.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick16
Well yes. They weren't using CDs like the rest of the competition, I didn't mean to word it that the 64DDs were like the cartridges, just that they weren't CD-roms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guntz
It seemed like it would've been a very powerful add-on.
They had to use a cart because the expansion port is a separate bus. The SNES had two address buses. The smaller one is not enough to hold enough cart ram (which emulates cart rom). So there has to be a physical cart for the temporary ram.
Funny you should mention this, read this thread: http://board.byuu.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=422
The BSNES author created a CD type addon for the SNES - but changed the medium to flash instead of CDROM - for practical reasons in this day an age. Since it's a cart pass through, you can run any existing game cart with whatever addon co-processor as well. There are already some hacks for streaming audio upgrades and FMV on existing games.
http://board.byuu.org/viewforum.php?...52b8c17657f7f1 <- the base forum.
Its just not a Snes CD topic without someone pointing that out again.Quote:
Originally Posted by sega fan
I thought the Nintendo Playstation was the first CD prototype, and was only 16-bit. This 32-bit one would be the 3rd publicly known prototype.Quote:
Originally Posted by sega fan
1. 16-bit Nintendo/Sony Play Station (standalone console and add-on), 1988-1991
Then Nintendo read the contract with Sony and went with Philips instead.
2. 16-bit Nintendo/Philips CD-ROM, 1991
3. 32-bit Nintendo/Phillips/Sony 'Nintendo Disk' / Philips CD-ROM XA, 1992-93
I've always wondered what an SNES CD could do.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
Wow, So that's basically just the SNES with whatever cartridge co-processor, no additional processors beyond that. But the SNES CD wouldn't have been 4GB though. That's still amazing.
I don't think Nintendo planned on adding any hardware peripherals for the SNES. All of these were R&D for the next console.
These juicy declarations of new hardware helped promote Nintendo as working on something super cool (ala Blast Processing), and helped scare competitors into racing too many other peripherals to market to compete with a ghost. It worked (except the Playstation bit).
Microsoft is doing the same thing right now with Natal.
NOA maybe, but not NOJ. They already had a history of addons. The disk system for the famicom, the satellite card for the SFC. Sega wasn't much of a concern in Japan, which is where this hardware upgrade originated from and was destined for. It was NEC and their CD base system competing even with the SFC, that Nintendo was targeting. And of course, the CD base games for the PC that were gaining popularity. Japanese computers were still a big competitor to the console market, unlike in the US where they were two completely different target audiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunzio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick16
Are you joking? Nintendo was last to abandon cartridges, they scrapped the CD (which would've been a risk), they skipped on the Famicom disk system in America b/c of piracy fears, etc. etc. The only chance Nintendo took was the Virtual Boy, and it sucked.
On the other hand, there wasn't a market Sega didn't try to get into.
Typo, I meant less.Quote:
Originally Posted by 17daysolderthannes
I think it was mainly because of the inibility to control the medium, unless they could have pretty strong security (as with GC) they didn't want to do it. added cost of the base unit and loading times were most likely secondary. (and both are tempered by much lower cost, higher production flexibility, and added storage capacity of discs -attractive to developers and facilitating cutting hardware prices as well -more than making up with added profit margins)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick16
I'm not sure why they couldn't have just gone with a custom form factor, like sligtly smaller than CDs, but far large than mini-CDs, so almost full capacity, and not practical to fit games on miniCDs. (and have the player just barely too small to fit full-sized CDs)
Only a physical barrier, but a fairly significant one. (no reweitable discs of the size would be available, so only substancial bootleg operations -and unlicended developers- would work, plus Nintendo could possible patent, or at least popyright the custom form factor, creating more legal barriers)
Had Nintendo thought losing Square could have been the result of that decision, I think they may have reconsidered. The RPG library was a HUGE selling point in Japan and losing Square was a pretty big hit (and a massive boon to Sony). And with FFVII, the genre bame expanded in the US, and finally popularized the genre in the generally RPG unfreindly European market. (many previous titles never even making it there outside imports, Sega's being notable exceptions)
And they hardly jumped the gun with GC, I think that has more to do with costs and maybe security as well. (using mini discs made for a smaller unit and necessitated a less powerful drive motor, no need for MPEG-2 decoder) But I think the licencing fees for a certified DVD player is probably the licencing fees Nintendo would have had to pay.
The Dreamcast's format would have been fine (DVD was in no way a practical possibility for SEGA, especially as early as the wanted the DC released), the big flaw was the CD-R problem. (and reacting far too slow afterward) They should have limited the feature to Dev units only (with consumer units not allowing games to play from CD), supporting video CDs (and SVCDs) is another kind of no-brainer Sega blew (shoudl have been possible in Software, for VCDs at least), mostly for the Asian market of course, but still. (could have improved popularity in Japan) Especially given the Saturn's VCD module, the DC should have supported VCDs out of the box. (and wouldn't have needed added hardware, just the necessary software built-in)
Nope. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by sega fan
Yeah, pretty much. I think at some point they were planning on a CD-i compatible system, but it obviously developed into much more before finally being abandoned entirely. (and the CD-i uses a 68000 derivative as its CPU, so not initially a 32-bit design -let alone RISC) That is assuming it was ever to be related to CD-i at all, with that just being a rumor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric83
I wonder if they were planning on using the same CPU as the Virtual boy ended up with.
Also, I'm not sure Sony even had a working prototype of the SNES CD or their Play Station counterpart by the time Nintendo broke from that perilous agreement. (lucky for N they got out when they did)
Sony continued to develop the SNES derived system independently, a complex relationship, and Nintendo was bound by their souny sound system as well, but a court case ruled that Sony would have to include a compatible cartridge slot on any SFC derived hardware product released. (of course, they eventualy scrapped that and went for an all-new design)
I hadn't realized how much Nintendo had hyped the CD add-on in media or pissed off some nintendo fans were with being strung along with CD vaporware, only to be followed by the N64 being cartridge only. (I read one farily well writen article recently expressing such frustration, feeling personally insulted by Nintendo's actions, not a new article though, just a ecent discovery on my part)
Edit: here's that article: http://www.gamersgraveyard.com/repos...snescdrom.html
With NEC being a major driving force behind Sega's release of an add-on.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
I'm not entirely sure why NoJ didn't just opt for a simpler, more PC-Engine like CD system, even if it ended up Japan only like FDC.
Maybe there were some legal constraints resulting from the Sony contract. (I've seen some comments of that in the context of the N64 as well, not sure how true that was though)
Oh, and some more pictures:
Edit: hey, the separate system cart idea might have been a better approach for Sega as well given the limitations of the expansion port. (with the CD-ROM drive attached to the expansion port, but most of the added hardware on the cartridge) The PC Engine went that route with system cards. (albeit those were RAM only afik)
Hell, going that route would have not only facilitated the 32x as a further upgrade (meshing better with the CD), but could have meant the system cart could have been more like the 32x in general, supporting video overlay with an added VDP and such. Hell, they could have allowed cart games to use it as well (with the system cart/module having a cartridge slot as well -which would also avoid having to remove the cart to play games). They could have even made the system module available separate from the CD (much cheaper obviously), so more like a 32x much earlier, but directly complementing the CD. (with the CD unit available separately as well, allowing users to later upgrade to that as well)
I looked at those sample SNES roms again. The Chrono Trigger opening and the Lunar opening video are over 100MB and 64MB respectively. Those videos are only about 2-3 minutes long. I'm pretty sure that exceeds the transfer rate of CDROM drives of the early 90s.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
The videos would most likely have to be compressed, reduced in screen size, have the framerate reduced, or all three to meet the constraints of early 90s technology.
But what it does show really well, is how much better the SNES color palette is for FMV.
Yes going through the cartridge slot has some definite advantages.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
But, Sega really should have designed the Sega CD to increase the colors, even if it needed an extra wire.
Yup. But not just the master palette. Those videos are using direct 256 color tile mode (with only one 256 palette per frame). No restricting multiple subpalettes to deal with and cause visual artifacting.Quote:
But what it does show really well, is how much better the SNES color palette is for FMV.
You're right though, being uncompressed at 256x176x30fpsx8bit format would even exceed a 4x CD drive. But I'm sure they would have added some sort of hardware compression. Also, IIRC - the SDD1 chip they based the 21fx chip on has hardware decompression - it's just that coder smkdan wrote the FMV driver for uncompressed video (AFAIK).
For the North American SNES. Was there a Expansion port for at add on.. I dont have my SNES to check at the moment. Maybe if Nintendo did release this unit it would only be in Japan, like the 64dd. I really would like to have a one of those units in the collection.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it had an expansion port on the bottom. The SNES 2 I think removed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxHound
200 dollars is all they were gonig to be charging. Sony must've been subsidizing a lot of the cost.
speaking of the 64dd did that ever come out
In Japan, but it only had...6 games? I know 3-4 of those were Mario Artist, one was a F-Zero add-on and the other was Doshin the Giant, thats all!Quote:
Originally Posted by Markss
EDIT: A Sim City, a Golf Game, and Kyojin no Doshin Kaihō Sensen Chibikko Chikko Daishūgō(God Game) also came out for it.
ah the 64DD was an even bigger add-on failure than 32X and Jaguar CDQuote:
Originally Posted by Markss
Jaguar was a pretty big failure on it's own, I don't think we need to bring in the add-ons.
N64DD was pretty much dead on arrival. It was sad, N64DD was announced in the early days of the N64. Looked very promising. After years of delays, they release it when the N64 was on the way out the door.
It begs the question, why the hell did Nintendo even release it if they weren't even going to support it. Or an ever better question, why release it at all when the system it attaches to is going to be phased out by a newer piece of hardware. I think the decision to release the N64DD was even stupider than the Virtual Boy.
Then again, it did allow the F-Zero X Expansion Kit to exist in the consumer market, however few people would actually be able to PLAY it but still. The Mario Artist games would have been nice to have 2 years before the N64DD came out but things just don't work out I guess.
I wonder if someone here knows exactly why it was delayed so many times...
21fx? Do you mean the Super FX 2 (GSU-2), which ran at 21.48 MHz?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
I didn't know the SDD-1 ASIC was derived from Argonaut's custom RISC core used in the MARIO chip/GSU.
The SA-1 chip also had decompression hardware, right?
That was the "planned" release price, who knows if that was total BS, or anywhere near the real price point. (also, the Sony deal was long gone by then, that was all Phillips)Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Shocker
Reading this I wonder if there has ever been a 'successful' add on. FDS was only big in Japan because of piracy...Quote:
Originally Posted by Guntz
Hmm, I'd say the Sega CD was successful, at least a little bit. It sold about 10 million units, that's not bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunzio
Other than that, no other add-ons come to mind really, besides the FDS but you mentioned it already.
Nope. I read over that topic on Byuu's forum and 21fx is virtual hardware. I don't think it was referring to a specific article. They juggled some ideas over a base "sattelliview" unit or a cart system.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
N64 RAM expansion was fairly popular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunzio
I don't think it's fair to expect an add on to sell well compared to a standalone system. Add ons fill a niche market under the umbrella of the mother system, and therefore I expect them to sell as such.
When Sony released the FFXI and it required the HDD add on it sold 90,000 in a week. The FFX sold 1.4 million in a week while FF XIII did 1.7 mil. That pretty much tells you how bad add ons are. I do wish Nintendo would've bought out all there add ons in the states. It probably would've helped Sega out moreso than hurt them.
PC Engine CD and later standalone Duo consoles far surpassed the success of the card based original from what I understand. (the library was much, much larger, a fet later being converted to turbochip for US releases too I think -due to the virtually nonexistant turbo CD market in the west)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunzio
I think the Sega CD outsold the Saturn in the US, or was very close. The Sega CD might not have even been considdered a failure in general by th egaming media if it hadn't been for the 32x and heavily flawed trasition to Saturn in the west.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guntz
Oh, that makes more sense, particularly re-reading tomaitheous's post, which I seem to have misread originally. (it says 21fx was based on SDD-1, not the other way around)Quote:
Originally Posted by Guntz
So are we considering Wii-motion Plus and Xbox 360 Natal ADDONS? I think motion plus is great! And it really opens up what the Wii can do, more like what I was EXPECTING the Wii to do in the first place! (RED STEEL 2 can't wait!)
Natal??? I dunno... Could be a huge flop! It has to be as good as the commercial shows or it's DOA! But I was reading that the lag might be the downfall!
Xbox 360 HD-DVD addon was a great flop!!! HAHA!
WMP is no more an "add-on" than th erumble pak IMO. (probably more useful than RP, but still not a general hardware expansion in that sense) Add-ons, yes, but to in th esame class. (and HD-DVD was completely unrelated to games, like the MPEG add-on for 3DO)