Saturn or Dreamcast?

[Aaron]

To the original poster: Just get both systems.

If you shop around you can find a good deal on a Saturn and a DC. It's inevitable that your going to want both of them anyways at some point, so just get them both now.
I paid $10 and $20 for both of my Saturns, and they both came with a game and controller. For both of my DC's I paid around $20 each, and they both came with two games and a controller. The deals are out there, you may have to be patient to score a good bargain though.

[Hiarcs]

Dreamcast first as a rule, actually it is an stupid mistery why this truly GREAT system faded away, another "enigma" of gaming, but Sega lives, and with more energy and originality than MANY developers.

[Da_Shocker]

Dreamcast first as a rule, actually it is an stupid mistery why this truly GREAT system faded away, another "enigma" of gaming, but Sega lives, and with more energy and originality than MANY developers.

That's not exactly a compliment to other developers lol.

[gamevet]

Dreamcast first as a rule, actually it is an stupid mistery why this truly GREAT system faded away, another "enigma" of gaming, but Sega lives, and with more energy and originality than MANY developers.

[E.J.]

Dreamcast by far. Why? The homebrew is why.

The price of a DC currently can get you full-speed ports of Doom (by Chilly Willy no less), Wolfenstein 3D, Quake, and half the graphic adventure titles from the 90's available through ScummVM (yes, they are individual source ports packaged with a GUI frontend).

On the old school emulator end, you have full-speed emulation of Gameboy, NES, Famicom Disk System, Game Gear, Master System, and while not perfect on all games about 75-80% of the Sega Genesis & Neo Geo Cd game libraries run full-speed as well.

[retrospiel]

Piracy killed Dreamcast

Well, no, they (Peter Moore) canceled it: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10067

Regarding Saturn vs. Dreamcast, I remember this thread: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7827

[17daysolderthannes]

You should be banned for being an ironic troll first and foremost, but I'm sure people will take whatever excuse gets results.

I didn't contradict myself, I said having an opinion=/=fact, then I gave my opinion. Is my opinion law? no, but just like a court case gives victory to the most justifiable side of a trial, I am providing justification for my approval of the DC and dislike of the Saturn.

This site is called SEGA-16 not IPHONE. This is a SEGA SITE. We all know you have a hard on for Apple products and you love to push it on here but this isn't an Apple site. Again I say if 17days can be allowed to troll then why can't TheEdge be on here anymore?

Sega 16, not Sega 32. Segasaturn.co.uk is where you need to be if you want to sackride the Saturn and shit on the iPhone (and oh boy did they shit on the iPhone when I mentioned it had a port of Pandemonium, holy christ!). Sega produces games for the iPhone and it's a current gen video game platform. If we can discuss PSP, DS, XBOX 360, PS3, and Wii, we can sure as hell discuss the iPhone. If you DON'T want to discuss the iPhone...don't.

Edge was pretty cool too TBH
Despite certain downsides.

He was fine when discussing games for the most part and I agreed with him on many points (particularly about the Wii blowing chunks and piracy of old games being completely acceptable). It was his ridiculous off-topic posts about water fluoridation and other The View-esque nonsense topics that got everyone aggrivated. Whether the Saturn or DC is best is always going to be an opinion, whether or not water fluoridation is acceptable is a scientifically studied and correlated concept. The kind of stuff The Edge would say might as well have been "putting a sliced lemon on your forehead will cure cancer, and because I say so, it is fact".

I'm sorry, but the Saturn has so many more and better exclusive than the DC does IMO. Just look at:


NiGHTS into Dreams...
Guardian Heroes
Shinobi Legends
Panzer Dragoon
Panzer Dragoon II: Zwei
Panzer Dragoon Saga
Sega Rally Championship
Shining the Holy Ark
Shining Force III
Burning Rangers
Dragon Force
Die Hard Arcade
Magical Knight Rayearth
Virtual On
Virtua Fighter 2
Fighters Megamix
Fighting Vipers
Daytona USA

The sheer greatness that is NiGHTS into Dreams...., Burning Rangers, and Sega Rally Championship is just....great.

Most of that list is pretty awful, and WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK SEGA RALLY IS A GOOD GAME!?!?!? Sega Rally (Saturn and DC versions) are obscenely short, the physics fail as both an arcade and simulation racer, there's just nothing good about it. The Sega Rally games are some of the worst racing games since the advent of 3D. The original Ridge Racer was better for crying out loud.

Is that why he was banned though? I mean that was one of the funniest things I read that day.

see above.

Yea, he pissed off Joe so Joe banned him cause he hurt his feelings, gave him a booboo or something like that.

And why you haven't been banned has been a total mystery. I might be abrasive at times, but I make mostly on-topic and relevant posts. You have made exactly 1 on-topic video game related post since I've been on these forums, ONE. If you just want to troll, this isn't the forum, it's called /b/ on 4-Chan.

You praise crap like Cosmic Smash and Cannon spike, yet you call Burning Rangers shit.

You're taste is games suck!

I like how listing it as one of the games I have=loving it and praising it as the best game ever. Cosmic Smash isn't even a WiiWare title in size/scope/length and Cannon Spike, while fun, feels more like a demo in length than a full game. I would never pay the going price for Cannon Spike (didn't I already say that in this thread!?) as it is far too short and easy, but for someone just playing CD-R backups, it's totally worth a playthrough. I mean, come on, you can play as Mega Man!

Burning Rangers looks like a crappy, clunkier version of Jet Force Gemini for N64. How you can claim that's better than anything on DC is absurd.

TheEdge was an absolute delusional idiot, and if you ever dared to disagree w/ any of his nonsensical arguments he'd add you to his shit list start insulting you constantly, TheEdge being banned is definitely a good thing.

pretty much this.

This thread tangent summarized:

"Saturn rules!"
"Nah DC is better!"
"No, Saturn is better because of Game X, Y & Z"
"No DREAMCAST is better because you can steal shit,... and your games are all gay."
"WAT?! WHY AREN'T YOU BANNED YET!"
"BECAUSE I LIKE THE COLOR PINK AND PEOPLE SHIT ON IT, THAT MEANS I'M ALLOWED TO PISS IN YOUR CORNFLAKES!"
"RAWR! I STILL DON'T SEE HOW YOU CAN STICK AROUND WHILE THE SOCIOPATH FROM LAST YEAR GOT PUNTED INTO OBLIVION!"
(We are here.)

I didn't say DC was better because of backup capabilities, though IMO that should be treated as a plus for the system, even if it was impossible to pirate on the DC I would still like it better.

That is a pretty good summary of the "OMGWTFBBQ" direction much of this thread has taken. Has the OP even shown up in the past 3-4 pages?

[17daysolderthannes]

(double post, I know, but I didn't want it to get lost in all of the rebuttles)

What would anyone recommend for a good ScummVM game to show to friends, etc. when demonstrating the DC? I also want just a fun game to play through to try out the old LucasArts games as well.

[Guntz]

Most of that list is pretty awful, and WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK SEGA RALLY IS A GOOD GAME!?!?!? Sega Rally (Saturn and DC versions) are obscenely short, the physics fail as both an arcade and simulation racer, there's just nothing good about it. The Sega Rally games are some of the worst racing games since the advent of 3D. The original Ridge Racer was better for crying out loud.

Burning Rangers looks like a crappy, clunkier version of Jet Force Gemini for N64. How you can claim that's better than anything on DC is absurd.

You think Sega Rally is bad and JFG is good?! I'm with Gamevet here, you DO have bad taste in games. Sega Rally, while short, is an amazing racing game. I wish more handled like it did.

Jet Force Gemini is just plain awful. I played through it for a few worlds and gave up. There are too many small things that annoy the crap out of me. The music is awful and they hid the co-op mode deep in the game's bowels. Why have it if you can't even use it from the start? Total waste of opportunity.

[gamevet]

Well, no, they (Peter Moore) canceled it: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10067

Regarding Saturn vs. Dreamcast, I remember this thread: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7827

If you look at the top selling games, the list has 2 sports titles, RE:CV, Sonic Adventure, Shenmue and Crazy Taxi. Three of the titles came out the first year the console existed.

So, either everyone stopped buying DC games, or most of the North American console sales were for sports titles until the PS2 came along. Where did everyone else go? Did they stop playing the Dreamcast, or start playing free games?

[gamevet]

I like how listing it as one of the games I have=loving it and praising it as the best game ever. Cosmic Smash isn't even a WiiWare title in size/scope/length and Cannon Spike, while fun, feels more like a demo in length than a full game. I would never pay the going price for Cannon Spike (didn't I already say that in this thread!?) as it is far too short and easy, but for someone just playing CD-R backups, it's totally worth a playthrough. I mean, come on, you can play as Mega Man!

You called Cannon Spike a fun game in short doses. The game is pretty much Smash TV, with just boss battles. Smash TV is a much better game, while Cannon Spike is a huge step back for the genre. Mega-man does't change the quality of the game and his annoying girly voice doesn't help either.

Burning Rangers looks like a crappy, clunkier version of Jet Force Gemini for N64. How you can claim that's better than anything on DC is absurd.

This is why I question if you've really played any Saturn games at all.

Burning Rangers is nothing like Jet Force Gemini. One game is a platformer (with 3rd person shooter elements) where you put out fires and rescue people, while the other one is your run-of-the-mill 3rd person shooter.

Most of that list is pretty awful, and WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK SEGA RALLY IS A GOOD GAME!?!?!? Sega Rally (Saturn and DC versions) are obscenely short, the physics fail as both an arcade and simulation racer, there's just nothing good about it. The Sega Rally games are some of the worst racing games since the advent of 3D. The original Ridge Racer was better for crying out loud.

Sega Rally is 10 times better than the first Ridge Racer. I didn't think much of Ridge Racer (those power-slides suck) until R4 came about. Sega Rally is the most precise racer I've played on any console. The power-slides were realisic, the brakes slides around corners were perfection and the graphics were pretty stunning at the time; the game looked near identical to the arcade game.

Sega Rally 2, on the other hand, lost the feel the first game had. SR2 is still a fun game, but the clipping issues on the hair-pin corners kind of ruins the flow of the game. It's still a great game on the DC though.

[17daysolderthannes]

You think Sega Rally is bad and JFG is good?! I'm with Gamevet here, you DO have bad taste in games. Sega Rally, while short, is an amazing racing game. I wish more handled like it did.

Jet Force Gemini is just plain awful. I played through it for a few worlds and gave up. There are too many small things that annoy the crap out of me. The music is awful and they hid the co-op mode deep in the game's bowels. Why have it if you can't even use it from the start? Total waste of opportunity.

Yes, Sega Rally is bland, ugly, boring, short, and heavily mediocre. It's not a good game in any sense of the word. Just about any rally racing game from that era is as good or better. I'm not speculating either, I own a complete copy of it. Speaking Sega racers, Outrun and Outrun 2 blow it away in terms of fun and Ferrari F355 Challenge blows it away with realism (the arcade version anyway, clutch+6 speed manual? yes please). Daytona USA is much better as well. If there's one genre I claim to really know through and through, it's racing games, and Sega Rally is as forgettable as they come. And don't tell me I have a bias against rally racing games either, the WRC is my favorite racing organization. Test Drive V-Rally smokes Sega Rally IMO.

I didn't say Jet Force Gemini was great, in fact I had quite a few complaints playing through it myself back in the day, mostly with the RPG-like level progression vs. stage by stage with level select (which I prefer). I was just saying Burning Rangers looks like a shitty version of that.

aside: can you all stop putting words in my mouth? I post a list of DC games I have while CLEARLY stating it is just the games I own, and suddenly every game on the list has to be better than every game ever made? All of you need to go to reading comprehension classes or something. Also, I say Burning Rangers looks like a shittier Jet Force Gemini and suddenly JFG is my favorite game? huh?

[retrospiel]

Did they stop playing the Dreamcast, or start playing free games?

I'd say gamers focused on buying PS2 as it was new and everyone with[out DVD or] a PS1 wanted one, so Dreamcast sales might have went down for quite a while but I am sure it would have recovered sooner or later. More sooner than later actually.

What you are talking about is software sales though, but again: I'd say the impact of PS2's release was MUCH higher than a few kids trying to leech fifty RAR files a 20Mbytes from Usenet - for each single game. The PS2 was the equivalent of what? 16 Dreamcast games ? and you still needed a second Dual Shock 2 controller or DVD remote sooner or later. And that's assuming you only played the PS1 games you already had and rented your DVDs.

Sega Rally is the most precise racer I've played on any console. The power-slides were realisic, the brakes slides around corners were perfection and the graphics were pretty stunning at the time; the game looked near identical to the arcade game.

Sega Rally 2, on the other hand, lost the feel the first game had. SR2 is still a fun game, but the clipping issues on the hair-pin corners kind of ruins the flow of the game. It's still a great game on the DC though.

I fucking love Sega Rally! Easily among my favorite games of all time, and the best racer I have ever played, aside of maybe F-Zero X and Mario Kart 64/DD/etc. but those are totally different games. There is no other racing game that controls as good. Especially via the 3D analog controller!


Sega Rally 2 is almost as good, and it got rumble and VGA support plus you can fix the frame rate issues:

That was just the European version of Sega Rally right? My US version has some framerate issues but its barely noticeable.

The Japanese version is said to slow down even more than the US version as it runs in 60fps while the US version runs at 30fps (not to be confused with the screen's refresh rate which is 60Hz). The EU version which is based on the US version runs at 25fps / 50Hz without having the game's speed adjusted (and still has the slow down).

Of course, playing the EU version in VGA mode will switch the game back into 30fps / 60Hz mode.

Fix frame rate?? HOW!!???

At the title screen press Up, A, Down, Down, Left, Right, B, B, Down. A jingle confirms the cheat. It will switch the game into 60fps mode and deactivates some visual effects.


- There even is another cheat to change the frame rate back to 30fps but keeping visual effects deactivated (Up, A, Down, Down, Left, Right, B, B, Up), but I prefer the 60fps mode.

[doomguy]

I dont see how you can say the saturn hasnt got many good games it has loads spanning lots of genres, and i think you are in a minority in saying sega rally is mediocre most people really like it. Personally it is one of my fav racers of all time just because the gameplay is so good. Much better than the dreamcast sega rally2 where even on tarmac it feels more like a hovercraft than a car lol.

[gamevet]

I'd say gamers focused on buying PS2 as it was new and everyone with[out DVD or] a PS1 wanted one, so Dreamcast sales might have went down for quite a while but I am sure it would have recovered sooner or later. More sooner than later actually.

What you are talking about is software sales though, but again: I'd say the impact of PS2's release was MUCH higher than a few kids trying to leech fifty RAR files a 20Mbytes from Usenet - for each single game. The PS2 was the equivalent of what? 16 Dreamcast games ? and you still needed a second Dual Shock 2 controller or DVD remote sooner or later. And that's assuming you only played the PS1 games you already had and rented your DVDs.

Piracy was by no means the end of the DC, but if you look a little closer at the numbers, it does have some bearing.

If you look at the sales numbers in North America for the DC, it sold around 2.5 million units by the end of 2000. NFL2K and NFL2K1 was sold to 1 out of every 2 owners (North America) that bought a Dreamcast within the first year. I'd guess 70% of those NFL fans didn't wait around for the PS2 and the next Madden, so they bought into the DC and its NFL franchise. Other sports fans made 6 out of the top 10 DC games being sports titles. The following year NFL2K2, and the rest of the 2K sports titles just kind of came and stuck to store shelves.

If you look at the sales of the Saturn in North America, it sold somewhere around 1.5 to 1.8 million units. Sega didn't have a real NFL title for the system, but it had its little core base of diehard Sega gamers that stuck with the Sega console. I have little doubt that without NFL2K and the rest of the 2K sports lineup, the DC would have suffered a simular fate in the US.

Once you strip away the casual sports gamers that moved on to PS2, you're left with a small but dedicated group of users that was probably no bigger than those that stuck with the Saturn, but at least the Saturn had 5 million Japanese systems with a dedicated fanbase, unlike the DC that stumbled everywhere outside of North America. The real question then becomes: "What are they buying?"

Outside of those sports franchises, only a handful of DC titles were selling more than 500K. It was titles like Shenmue, Phantasy Star Online, Resident Evil: CE and Crazy Taxi. Capcom releases titles like Cannon Spike, Street Fighter III and Marvel vs. Capcom 2, but they aren't selling over 100K and neither are other 3rd party titles.

What do those number add up to?

It appears that most of the DC owners were either fans of a few Sega franchises, fans of Sega, Sports fans, or into buying the latest thing. Those that stuck around probably weren't in the sporting segment, since EA was on the other console, the Sonic fans were waiting for the next game in the franchise and the remaining crowd was pretty segmented on what they wanted to play.

Can you imagine now, if 1 in every 7 DC owners (the rest moved to PS2) had the ability to play free DC games and opted not to buy the game instead. If Capcom had a title that could sell 40K, but 5.6K went to piracy, the numbers then drop to a title selling only 34K. The numbers get even more disappointing to a lesser known title. Does a publisher stick around, or do they take their chances on a console with more competition, yet a better chance that 100% of their product was sold to someone, instead of copied?

Even Capcom stuck around with the Saturn, long after it was pronounced dead. I don't recall them doing the same for the DC.