One quarter of "Humble Indie Bundle"-downloads was pirated

[Phantar]

reprinted from Joystiq:

Perhaps you've heard of (or purchased!) the Humble Indie Bundle -- a set of five DRM-free indie games, which you can choose your own price for, the entirety of which goes to two completely deserving charities. Despite the bundle's altruism and affordability, Wolfire Games reports that over one quarter of the total downloads of the package were pirated. You read that right -- a grip of people have stolen the choose-your-own-price indie-bundle-for-charity. Talk about sticking it to The Man.

This fraction of creeps shouldn't cheapen the fact that the bundle's already brought in $716,944 for Child's Play and the Electronic Frontier Foundation, but it's still pretty disheartening. If you'll excuse us, we need to go watch Happy-Go-Lucky or perhaps a few episodes of Extreme Makeover: Home Edition until we regain our faith in humanity.

So let me get this straight: You could have five games for whatever you were willing to pay, you could LEGITIMATELY BUY THEM FOR ONE CENT... One cent that went to charity, no less... DRM-free games from Indie developers even, so there was nothing for big label producers to gain from it, even...

And still, a quarter of all people who downloaded the package didn't even pay that cent, but decided to grab it from shared links... and this is not even counting in bittorrent downloads, as stated by independent label Wolfire games:

After some simple math, I estimate that over 25% of Humble Indie Bundle downloads are 'pirated' -- that is, users download from shared links from forums and other places without actually contributing anything. Note: that is not including BitTorrent and other sources.

There's no justification for pirating this bundle of games! This is just outright stealing - from charity, no less! Reading this, I can honestly see no other future for PC gaming than to die a slow death... if gamers aren't even willing to pay ANYTHING for a game, why should they receive quality games at all?

[17daysolderthannes]

This may be blown out of proportion, though. There are lots of people that simply download anything and everything for archival purposes. Others may be kids without credit cards or other payment methods. People never consider how many pirated games are probably downloaded by kids below working age that have no way to buy them if their parents won't fork over the cash. You can bet that the number of people that knew it was a charitable bundle and still chose to download it without paying anything to be cheap or sneaky were very small. Or what about international people, isn't it possible they couldn't access the site in certain countries, etc? I know I've read info on the App Store before about developers making their game temporarily free so that someone in country X could download it. Others still may not trust using their credit cards/paypal and won't purchase it out of fear of scam or identity theft. Like you said, you could offer a cent, and given that fact, I think anyone would choose that option if it was viable for them.

[retrospiel]

I agree with 17days.

[Diosoth]

Ah, nice. As always, the game industry isn't applauding the money they did make but whining about what they didn't make. It also uses the bogus assumption that those who pirated would have paid for it to start with(they would not). Most people who pirate would not spend the money either way, they'd choose to go without.

And what has the PC industry done to stop piracy? They've really encouraged it through DRM, forced online connections to play single player and other such nonsense. DRM gets cracked which means it's nothing but an inconvenience and a "middle finger" to the people who did pay money. Now it's too late, the damage is done and dropping DRM now isn't helping the perception. If they want to stab themselves, fine, but don't blame the wound on the end users.

[Elusive]

My heart weeps for the poor people who needed video games more than childrens' charities needed donations. Truly, it does.

I mean, honestly. 'International people'? 'Archivists'? You're really, really grasping for an excuse here.

[edit] these are indie developers donating the entire profit of the sale to charity, not GIGANTIC EVIL CORPORATIONS dude. Read the fucking article.

[retrospiel]

I am aware of what this is about, and I considered donating but I can also understand people that just download the games by clicking on some link on a forum.

Also:

http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Savi...e-Indie-Bundle

As of this writing, 79,000 people have contributed to the bundle.

When someone contributes to the Humble Indie Bundle, they get the 5 games, plus the Samorost 2 gift. This adds up to about 746.5 MB per platform. I think it is reasonable to assume that not everyone will download every single game for their platform.

[...] So we can divide the 49.3 TB by 490.01 MB and we get 105,497 average downloaders.

Okay... !?


Oh, and what about this:

Some users may live in countries where none of our three processors (PayPal, Google Checkout, and Amazon) are accepted. These users might pay if they could, but they feel that they have no choice but to search for shared copies.

I heard China and Russia are big countries without PayPal.

[Elusive]

I heard China and Russia are big countries without PayPal.

There's definitely a Chinese PayPal site, but that's irrelevant. Presumably, if these alleged Chinese and Russian users were capable of downloading and spreading the games amongst themselves, they are also capable of understanding that all profits from the game sales was to be donated directly to childrens' charities.

And that's ignoring that there's no way of knowing how many, if any, of these downloads came from countries without Paypal, GoogleCheckout or Amazon representation anyway. Again, sounds like grasping for a reason, ANY reason to explain this away.

Fucking scroungers. Owt for nowt.

[17daysolderthannes]

My heart weeps for the poor people who needed video games more than childrens' charities needed donations. Truly, it does.

I mean, honestly. 'International people'? 'Archivists'? You're really, really grasping for an excuse here.

oh shut up, there's nothing I hate more than super lefty liberals pretending they care about everything with their whole heart. You didn't even know this existed until it was posted on this forum, so don't act like it's your lifelong pursuit to help the cause. Besides, do you know what these charities are for? buying games for kids in the hospital. I'm sorry, but if I'm going to donate money, I'm donating money to go to doctors and medical supplies, not a fucking XBOX for a kid with a toothache. Dumbest charities ever. That said, if I wanted these games, I would still buy them since ~$10 for a DRM free download is acceptable IMO.

oh...and KIDS! Do you know how bananas I used to be for downloads? Even in the 28.8 days I would download EVERY game demo that came out because I didn't have money and thus I had no choice. It's possible people don't even know about the charity because the games just popped up on their favorite torrent/MegaUpload site and they said "OK, neato!" Do not underestimate the number of kids that use torrent sites, kids are people with no money and tons of time and thus they're willing to jump through hoops to get stuff free. To think anyone with a PayPal account and knowledge of the "name your own price" model would even go through the trouble of searching for torrents or megaupload links is just ridiculous. For the record, I'm calling kids up till college graduation since college students eating Ramen don't have bankrolls to shell out for entertainment.

[Phantar]

So I take it if you went by the Salvation Army, and saw a used Video Game for sale, and you don't happen to have a wallet with you, it would be okay to swipe it; either because you don't have money with you right now, or for "archival" purposes.

Okay, this again touches the "stealing vs copying"-discussion, but in this special case I'm miffed about the "Taking from charity"-aspect. This is just about as low as you can get. Just because you can doesn't justify blindly grabbing whatever you can.

as for

I am aware of what this is about, and I considered donating but I can also understand people that just download the games by clicking on some link on a forum.

Why can you understand them? Because they didn't know that they could have gotten the games just as well without pirating them? Just because you don't know the source or the background of something doesn't mean it's okay to take it.

And even if they are from a place where they weren't able to participate in this event, either for lack of credit card of lack of paypal access: Then why the compulsive need for getting these games? You want to tell me these folks were so pathologically bored that they needed to download this pack, thinking "oh, I can download five games at once, I HAVE to get these"?

If you can't afford it, then go look for something you CAN afford! Don't blindly grab anything, because - in some cases - you might actually cause harm that way.

[chrisbid]

if you simply look at the numbers, piracy rates are a progressive tax on media. the songs/movies/programs/games that are pirated the most tend to be the ones that also sell the best.


i dont see why this is an issue, 25% isnt that bad. if the number was north of 70% i can see the argument. if there was a method where you could drop a quarter into a computer to get the games, the piracy rate would be even lower.

[retrospiel]

I am not saying people should steal them, I just don't think it's that much of a big deal.

[17daysolderthannes]

So I take it if you went by the Salvation Army, and saw a used Video Game for sale, and you don't happen to have a wallet with you, it would be okay to swipe it; either because you don't have money with you right now, or for "archival" purposes.

You can't be serious, no one could be this dumb.

Physical Theft=/=Piracy/Copying. As I've said 1.2 trillion times before, physical items take actual effort on the behalf of real people to make the product and is a finite supply. Pirated/Copied media takes NO effort except on the behalf of the volunteer providing it and can be copied infinitely. Now, yes, someone worked to make the media, but in the instance you wouldn't buy it anyway, it's impossible to count that as a "loss".

Okay, this again touches the "stealing vs copying"-discussion, but in this special case I'm miffed about the "Taking from charity"-aspect. This is just about as low as you can get. Just because you can doesn't justify blindly grabbing whatever you can.

And, once again, has the thought occurred that people didn't even know about the charity (not to mention what a fucking retarded charity it is)? Not only that, but how is it "taking from charity" if they wouldn't buy it anyway? If there's a charity auction for a car and I test drive it and don't bid, am I taking from charity (lets pretend I paid for the gas I used just so the finances equal zero)? Taking from charity is sticking your hand in the Salvation Army collection jar, not not donating to a cause you may not even know exists.

Why can you understand them? Because they didn't know that they could have gotten the games just as well without pirating them? Just because you don't know the source or the background of something doesn't mean it's okay to take it.

no, but it removes the "OMGZ, you won't even donate to a charity!" aspect, making it no different than any other scenario.

And even if they are from a place where they weren't able to participate in this event, either for lack of credit card of lack of paypal access: Then why the compulsive need for getting these games? You want to tell me these folks were so pathologically bored that they needed to download this pack, thinking "oh, I can download five games at once, I HAVE to get these"?

Well, if they wanted them and they can't get them through legitimate means...yeah. And still, it's not like they were downloading them through the official servers and costing the foundations money, they were downloaded through other methods. It's zero money if they do, zero money if they don't, so what's the difference? What, you expect them to fly to a country with PayPal to buy a pack of 5 indie games? Seriously, you can't be this stupid.

If you can't afford it, then go look for something you CAN afford! Don't blindly grab anything, because - in some cases - you might actually cause harm that way.

HOW ARE THEY CAUSING HARM!? BY NOT DONATING TO SOMETHING THEY WOULDN'T DONATE TO? I guess I'm causing Burger King harm every day when I eat at McDonald's even though I wouldn't eat at Burger King even if there was no McDonald's. Kids can't afford ANYTHING because they have NO MONEY because they can't get a job.



This whole discussion is boiling down to this:

1) OMGZ! they won't donate teh moneyz!

rationalization: there are lots of people that can't donate for various reasons and still others that weren't aware it was a charitable bundle. Neither group would buy the games otherwise, so it's a moot point. When something is offered for free, many will jump on the opportunity, you can't account for pirate downloads as lost sales, it just doesn't work that way.

2) I WANT A JOB IN SOME SORT OF HIPPY SHIT LIBERAL ARTS FIELD AND THUS EVERYONE SHOULD PAY ME MONEY FOR MY CRAP!

rationalization: shut the fuck up, people will pay for what they feel deserves being paid for. If a restaurant serves you a shitty meal, you don't pay for it, if a game company serves you a shitty game, you're already out $60. I don't blame people for evaluation piracy in the least, nor do I blame kids that can't work and can't afford to buy it anyway. Don't like it? don't pander to kids, they don't have money, make something for adults with jobs and they might just feel like supporting your efforts. Most adults I know won't waste their time on torrents, etc. because they have the disposable income to plop down on whatever entertainment they want. On the other hand, college kids in dorms pirate everything because they're already living off of Ramen as it is.

[Phantar]

ah, another mental meltdown by 17days that just encourages a civil discussion. Lovely.

I'll let this thing rest, since discussing this properly will be pointless beyond this ^ point. I'd just like to add one last thing:

- if there won't be any more events of this kind ("pay what you feel like"), the end user who was willing to pay is the one who gets the short end
- if no more games will be sold with the earnings going to charity, the latter will get the short end
- if independent gaming studios offering DRM-free games will get their games pirated, which in return justifies anti-piracy-methods as conducted by EA or Ubisoft, the independent studios will get the short end

I'd consider that as "harm done". If you don't, then so be it.

I have nothing more to add.

[17daysolderthannes]

First of all, let me just say this should've been your argument to begin with as these actually make some sense.

I'd just like to add one last thing:

- if there won't be any more events of this kind ("pay what you feel like"), the end user who was willing to pay is the one who gets the short end

Doubtful. Fundraisers are fundraisers and this one has already made ONE MILLION DOLLARS+. Saying it was a failure when it made that much just because some people pirated makes zero sense.

- if no more games will be sold with the earnings going to charity, the latter will get the short end

Why would that happen? that makes no sense at all. And, once again, are you aware of how stupid that charity is? "lets buy XBOXes for kids in hospitals, nevermind if a kid is in the hospital they're probably hardly able to watch TV much less effectively play a video game."

- if independent gaming studios offering DRM-free games will get their games pirated, which in return justifies anti-piracy-methods as conducted by EA or Ubisoft, the independent studios will get the short end

People come up with cracks, etc. just the same. I know I'm not alone in protest of DRM and when they see overall sales flounder with DRM vs. DRM free games, they'll understand. A million sales+half a million pirated copies is still better than 250,000 sales and no pirated copies. Also, what if 450,000 of those pirated copies ended up buying the game at retail? how could you track that? you can't.

if you don't consider this as harm done, so be it.

I have nothing more to add

It isn't harm done as long as the companies putting on the event are smart enough to look at the people that did donate rather than piss and moan about those that didn't. It seems all media companies do is bitch about what they didn't get rather than what they did.