Ghost Stories: The Paranormal Thread

[Obviously]

I'm only going to say it one last time. Nobody...

NOBODY.

Has ever...

EVER.

Returned from a state of brain death.

It is irreversible. It is the end. A hospital declaring clinical death is not the same as brain death. We have no way of restoring activity to the brain after the clinical definition of brain death which is essentially "all electrical activity has stopped in the brain." It's never happened throughout all of human history. If you've heard differently it's simply wrong. Sometimes BS is perpetuated by religious groups against pulling the plug on vegetables because they confuse brain death with persistent vegetative state which is not the same even though people often use the same term incorrectly.

If it ever really happens you'll know about it because it will be the medical miracle of the millennium. Bigger than the discovery of penicillin. I have read stories where they've claimed patients were brain dead or doctors who said their patients have recovered from brain death but what those stories, at least the part about brain death, have in common is that they're lying or else they'd be beyond famous. The brain is dying during a near death experience, but it has never completely died.

And on the other topic:

What research on the supernatural is being slowed down? Nobody's stopping you from looking into it. Go ahead and try to publish a scientific journal on the subject if you think there's any actual scientific merit. I'm willing to bet there's not.

Don't blame atheists that you've got zero evidence and your claims don't have a leg to stand on. Go out and prove yourself right. We'll be waiting.

Anyway I've said all I can. I can't change anybody's world-view nor am I trying to so I will gracefully bow out of this thread now.

[driftwood]

the only problem i have with NDE stories are the similarities between them and their much more scientific GLOC (Gravitational loss of consciousness) experiments conducted by NIDS (natl institute for discovery science)

James Whinnery GLOC experiments

Common experience described by NDE proponents:
Tunnel vision / bright light
Feelings of Floating
Autoscopy (Out-of-body experience)
Conscious but affected by paralysis
Vivid dreamlets / beautiful places
a. Euphoria
b. Dissociation
Visions of dead or unborn friends &/or family Prior memories / thoughts inclusion

which are EXACTLY the same as the effects described by pilots in over 700 recorded instances of GLOC (during the study).

Also strange is how similar reports of the old world (pre-european enlightenment) "demonic possessions" are to modern day "Alien abduction" accounts.

Until we have a more resolute understanding of the internal working of the brain (and by extension the understanding of consciousness and reality) we must be very careful how much credence we give to personal accounts. Remember people, Life is a subjective experience. We can only believe what our senses tell us. to believe without question is to take a plunge into the realm of faith. (that last time we collectively did this as a people it was called the DARK AGES)

Nothing wrong with faith... Im very spiritual myself, we just have to analyze these scenarios with much skepticism and allow the blade of science peel away the layers of untruth.

DEATH TO VOODOO SCIENCE!

[Glisp]

Who the hell says hardcore atheist anyway? your the kind of person who turned me off religion in the the first place Lets face it everything has a reason, just because it goes over are heads (especially yours) at the moment doesn't mean we should consider it "paranormal" at all, make sure to collect your money when you prove ghosts exist. While your worshipping the devil and sacrificing goats im educating myself on how thing actually work in the universe. and would explain your experience as bullshit (most likely) or you missed that someone so much it and since you seem to be mentally unstable there was a high chance of you experiencing something, you see i have seen and heard things but i thought about them rationally and on reflection i was both stressed and tired at the time. One last thing believing what you do is more crazy than believing that god makes the sun rise every day.

FYI, Wiccans don't worship the devil or sacrifice animals. Obviously some nitwit didn't do his research. There were witnesses too asshole. And no, this was a seaunce (or however you spell it. Just shut up. I'm not the only one who believes in this stuff and you are obviously a stupid ass twit who knows nothing about the occult. so just fucking shut up or I'll take your posts as personal attacks. I seem to be the only one you are attacking. I don't see you going after anyone else right now besides me. Ecco believes in this as much as me too. If you're trying to start something with me then get the fuck out. This is what I believe. You don't like it? Well that's just too fucking bad. I actually didn't believe in a god either once. Then I shifted between being agnostic and trying to decide if I wanted a faith or not. I only became a wiccan because my dad was a paganist. (which is like one step into darker territory from Wicca.)

You don't believe such stuff exists? Well, that's your fucking problem, not mine. That doesn't give you a right to criticize and attack me for believing it. I was skeptic too until that incident. Believe it or not, I'm still somewhat receptive now that its happened. I don't know if what happened that day was real or not. I do know that the device they were using asked intelligent questions about me. Questions that only I would know.

So yeah you say I'm fucking crazy but I guess a large portion of the population is crazy too. Get some fucking research on Wicca before attacking me for practicing it or, better yet, just shut up because you're starting to piss me off. You have no concept of energy, nor will you ever try to research it. Hell, you probably don't even believe in hypnosis which is not what it is stereotypically believed to be.

FYI, even though I believe in the above doesn't mean I don't believe in things like evolution and the Big Bang. I believe in that stuff. But the truth be told, there is something out there in this dimension that not everyone can see. Weather you believe it or not is your problem, not mine. So stop the fucking personal attacks now.

If you ask me, you're just as crazy as I am for arguing on a subject that neither of us will budge on.

[Ecco]

the only problem i have with NDE stories are the similarities between them and their much more scientific GLOC (Gravitational loss of consciousness) experiments conducted by NIDS (natl institute for discovery science)

James Whinnery GLOC experiments

Common experience described by NDE proponents:
Tunnel vision / bright light
Feelings of Floating
Autoscopy (Out-of-body experience)
Conscious but affected by paralysis
Vivid dreamlets / beautiful places
a. Euphoria
b. Dissociation
Visions of dead or unborn friends &/or family Prior memories / thoughts inclusion

which are EXACTLY the same as the effects described by pilots in over 700 recorded instances of GLOC (during the study).

Also strange is how similar reports of the old world (pre-european enlightenment) "demonic possessions" are to modern day "Alien abduction" accounts.

Until we have a more resolute understanding of the internal working of the brain (and by extension the understanding of consciousness and reality) we must be very careful how much credence we give to personal accounts. Remember people, Life is a subjective experience. We can only believe what our senses tell us. to believe without question is to take a plunge into the realm of faith. (that last time we collectively did this as a people it was called the DARK AGES)

Nothing wrong with faith... Im very spiritual myself, we just have to analyze these scenarios with much skepticism and allow the blade of science peel away the layers of untruth.

DEATH TO VOODOO SCIENCE!

Wow, great link for James Whinnery's G-LOC research; It was the first I've read about him and his experiments.

Just a specific link to what I just read about his torture, I mean research:

The Trigger of Gravity

Dr. James Winnery's NDE research
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers06.html


^ The centrifuge experiment sounds like torture. lol They spin and the participants' blood gets pooled in their abdomens so their brains stop getting oxygen, and they have convulsions and pass out and have NDE's apparently. Ugh so awful. I feel like puking just reading the research. lol

Glad to read real scientific research on the matter, but I wouldn't consider anything from his G-LOC experiments to be EXACTLY the same as anything from naturally-occuring NDE's...

Also yes it's interesting to compare stories of demon possession and to compare them with modern-day alien stories... BUT there are obvious differences between these 2 kinds of stories! Also, stories of demons did NOT stop with the European Enlightenment. Stories of literal demons and possession have continued to this day!

I read an article about a month ago (I think it was on MSNBC.com) that described (IIRC) how in the U.S., Catholic priests are undergoing an increased level of personal training for the sake of CASTING OUT DEMONS from individuals who think they're possessed. The increased training is in response to an increased demand for priests to cast out demons! Presumably the increased demand is linked to the proliferation of TV shows involving ghosts, demons, exorcisms, etc.

[Ecco]

I'm only going to say it one last time. Nobody...

NOBODY.

Has ever...

EVER.

Returned from a state of brain death.

It is irreversible. It is the end. A hospital declaring clinical death is not the same as brain death. We have no way of restoring activity to the brain after the clinical definition of brain death which is essentially "all electrical activity has stopped in the brain." It's never happened throughout all of human history. If you've heard differently it's simply wrong. Sometimes BS is perpetuated by religious groups against pulling the plug on vegetables because they confuse brain death with persistent vegetative state which is not the same even though people often use the same term incorrectly.

^OK these are all excellent points on the science / biology that suggests it's impossible for anyone to come back to life after genuine brain death! Although this is claimed in many NDE's, you've made a good argument for the physical reasons it should NOT be possible.

If it ever really happens you'll know about it because it will be the medical miracle of the millennium. Bigger than the discovery of penicillin. I have read stories where they've claimed patients were brain dead or doctors who said their patients have recovered from brain death but what those stories, at least the part about brain death, have in common is that they're lying or else they'd be beyond famous. The brain is dying during a near death experience, but it has never completely died.

^Well that is the conundrum. There are accounts of NDE's that claim people came back from complete death. On the other hand, science & biology can only provide reasons that such a thing is impossible. The more fantastic NDE stories are thus automatically ruled as lies. There is really no solution here.

The only way for NDE's to be taken more seriously would be thru more extensive scientific studies... But there won't be serious study of the more fantastic accounts, because they're just labeled as physically impossible, hence untrue... hence they won't be studied!

And on the other topic:

What research on the supernatural is being slowed down? Nobody's stopping you from looking into it. Go ahead and try to publish a scientific journal on the subject if you think there's any actual scientific merit. I'm willing to bet there's not.

Is this directed at me? Or the guy who said he would try his hand at ghost-hunting with technology? Well if it was for me, I certainly never expressed an interest in personally researching it and publishing a scientific journal about it. I'd like to see scientists do that, not me.

Don't blame atheists that you've got zero evidence and your claims don't have a leg to stand on. Go out and prove yourself right. We'll be waiting.

And I don't blame atheists for anything. Also it doesn't bother me at all what other people believe or disbelieve. I am in this thread just for interesting conversation, not to convince anyone of anything. Forums can be misinterpreted but I hope it's clear that I'm not arguing with anyone, about anything.

Anyway I've said all I can. I can't change anybody's world-view nor am I trying to so I will gracefully bow out of this thread now.

Well peace, stop back in the thread if u want. I've enjoyed the conversation, and I hope that's what the thread is seen as, just peaceful conversations man.

[doomguy]

FYI, Wiccans don't worship the devil or sacrifice animals. Obviously some nitwit didn't do his research. There were witnesses too asshole. And no, this was a seaunce (or however you spell it. Just shut up. I'm not the only one who believes in this stuff and you are obviously a stupid ass twit who knows nothing about the occult. so just fucking shut up or I'll take your posts as personal attacks. I seem to be the only one you are attacking. I don't see you going after anyone else right now besides me. Ecco believes in this as much as me too. If you're trying to start something with me then get the fuck out. This is what I believe. You don't like it? Well that's just too fucking bad. I actually didn't believe in a god either once. Then I shifted between being agnostic and trying to decide if I wanted a faith or not. I only became a wiccan because my dad was a paganist. (which is like one step into darker territory from Wicca.)

You don't believe such stuff exists? Well, that's your fucking problem, not mine. That doesn't give you a right to criticize and attack me for believing it. I was skeptic too until that incident. Believe it or not, I'm still somewhat receptive now that its happened. I don't know if what happened that day was real or not. I do know that the device they were using asked intelligent questions about me. Questions that only I would know.

So yeah you say I'm fucking crazy but I guess a large portion of the population is crazy too. Get some fucking research on Wicca before attacking me for practicing it or, better yet, just shut up because you're starting to piss me off. You have no concept of energy, nor will you ever try to research it. Hell, you probably don't even believe in hypnosis which is not what it is stereotypically believed to be.

FYI, even though I believe in the above doesn't mean I don't believe in things like evolution and the Big Bang. I believe in that stuff. But the truth be told, there is something out there in this dimension that not everyone can see. Weather you believe it or not is your problem, not mine. So stop the fucking personal attacks now.

If you ask me, you're just as crazy as I am for arguing on a subject that neither of us will budge on.

You getting angry and providing no evidence still really proves your point right? wrong no i know nothing about your delusions i was fucking with you and it obviously worked. And no its not my problem you are clearly the one with a problem by the you complain at me for being single minded while doing the same thing yourself. Face it you fail at logic i put to you this video Make sure to watch all the parts! they show the kind of crap you pedal, i do research and energy is another pathetic rebrand of god did it and you know it is. If i get you angry good it just proves you have nothing to back up what you say and that angers you. Y ou dont deserve an equal side in a debate on this because your ideas clearly don't hold up at all your opinion is less valid than mine because you clearly know jack about what your talking about.

[Ecco]

Who the hell says hardcore atheist anyway? your the kind of person who turned me off religion in the the first place Lets face it everything has a reason, just because it goes over are heads (especially yours) at the moment doesn't mean we should consider it "paranormal" at all, make sure to collect your money when you prove ghosts exist. While your worshipping the devil and sacrificing goats im educating myself on how thing actually work in the universe. and would explain your experience as bullshit (most likely) or you missed that someone so much it and since you seem to be mentally unstable there was a high chance of you experiencing something, you see i have seen and heard things but i thought about them rationally and on reflection i was both stressed and tired at the time. One last thing believing what you do is more crazy than believing that god makes the sun rise every day.

Yeesh, too much personal attacks man

I guess the only other thing I can say is that, if Glisp did a recording and it picked up the faint voice of a deceased loved one, heck that's about as solid as evidence gets for the paranormal. The tech is supposed to bring objectivity and proof to paranormal research. Unfortunately, if REAL LIFE results are immediately discounted as insanity, or straight fake (in the case of explaining away such recordings), then there can be no progress! Disbelievers focus on lack of proof, yet won't consider things that MIGHT be proof of the paranormal! It's also insulting to accuse someone of either lying or being unstable...

[Glisp]

Ecco, Obviously was talking to both of us. Kinda got offended by my argument with Doomguy. This thread probably needs to be locked. It's too controversial of a discussion apparently....
Also, you're arguing with me because I lack evidence? lol. I haven't even started ghost hunting yet and you're telling me you want evidence. I haven't asked the person who was there if the EVPs from that previous session have even been anylized yet. And you're demanding evidence now? Geez. People are so impatient.....

[doomguy]

Yeesh, too much personal attacks man

I guess the only other thing I can say is that, if Glisp did a recording and it picked up the faint voice of a deceased loved one, heck that's about as solid as evidence gets for the paranormal. The tech is supposed to bring objectivity and proof to paranormal research. Unfortunately, if REAL LIFE results are immediately discounted as insanity, or straight fake (in the case of explaining away such recordings), then there can be no progress! Disbelievers focus on lack of proof, yet won't consider things that MIGHT be proof of the paranormal! It's also insulting to accuse someone of either lying or being unstable...

Its the way he arrogantly goes on assuming people don't know what he was talking about and adding a label to me like im some kind of fundamentalist which is ironic to say the least and if he has proof all he has to do is post it and prove it, and he doesn't because he cant because he has nothing. Im sure i can do some spooky static noises in a voice recorder but i bet he wouldn't even go that far and does nothing. I value his opinion less because he has no evidence and so shouldn't be given fair ground, i was being harsh to try and get him to show me evidence of some kind.

[doomguy]

Ecco, Obviously was talking to both of us. Kinda got offended by my argument with Doomguy. This thread probably needs to be locked. It's too controversial of a discussion apparently....

Not really you just don't like you have no proof and started swearing for no reason, i see no reason to lock the thread. I may have gone a little over board but it was to provoke a response i want you to show me evidence.

[Glisp]

I'm easily excitable. Also still doesn't give you the right. I'm sorry I got arrogant. I wasn't actually intentionally trying to be.

[doomguy]

Fair enough i will have to agree to disagree with you on that i think i have the right but whatever it isn't worth fighting about we clearly have different opinions and neither of us is going to change the others mind on this subject, peace

[Ecco]

It's nice to see everyone shake hands and make up.

[Chilly Willy]

Look, everyone has a "right" to criticize... but not to attack. Keep the criticism above the personal level and everyone should be fine. Critical analysis is how we make sure we're not getting off track.

[Ecco]

What's stranger than birds falling from the sky? FRESH MEAT

http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/