Daytona USA (Saturn)

[Zz Badnusty]

It's not the control method that is the issue, it's the car physics. The control method will obviously be different, and the game can be adapted to take that into account, but the car should still behave in essentially the same way when the equivalent inputs are used. If you are saying that Daytona cannot be an accurate facsimile of the arcade game with digital input then logically you must also concede that it can't be with a little thumbstick as the controller instead of a force feedback steering wheel.

Of course. But then again the car physics in CE are closer to the arcade than any of the other versions.

[Zz Badnusty]

Yes.

Or at least I do. What's wrong with that? It shows you have some dexterity.

Sure, that was fine for Super Monaco GP in 1990. But for true 3D polygon generated racing environments it's analogue or bust.

[Guntz]

Was Virtua Racing analog?

[A Black Falcon]

The Saturn versions were not designed for analogue control. The wheel merely simulates analogue steering.
Daytona CE, and Outrun were coded for analogue control.
However Daytona CE does not play well with the wheel, because, as already mentioned, there in no analogue acceleration nor brake on the wheel.

The analogue pad and Daytona CE is the closest replication of Daytona USA on a home console.

That is absolutely false. It is very easy to tell Saturn racing games that don't have actual analog support from ones that do, on the Mission Stick at least. With the ones that don't have real analog, you don't get proportional control, just digital control with the stick. With the ones that do, you get proportional control. The difference is huge and instantly apparent.

And as I said in my other post in this thread, the first version of Saturn Daytona DEFINITELY has analog. Play the game with the Mission Stick, it's got great, smooth analog control, a huge improvement over either digital control or the jerky analog you get with the 3D Controller or Dreamcast pad and any version of Daytona designed for those controllers (CE, DC Daytona...). I'm sure it is also analog with the Arcade Racer, but not having one I don't know how well it plays.

It's quite easy to tell racing games that do have analog on the Mission Stick, like Daytona USA, Cyber Speedway, or Sega Rally, from ones that do not and are digital-on-the-stick, like Wipeout or Virtua Racing. No problem at all -- controls are much better in the former group because they are proportional. I really wish that Daytona USA CE worked with the Mission Stick, sure it's got solid 3D Controller controls but Mission Stick controls would be better...

[kool kitty89]

Was Virtua Racing analog?

In the arcade? Yes, as were pretty much all arcade racers back to the early 70s I believe. (actually you even had that at home with paddles, driving controllers, and racing wheels)

But I think you mean Time Warner's Saturn port, in which case, I'm not sure.


One interesting thing about digitally controlled racing games is that you could design a peripheral with analog control and an ADC that converted the analog signals into button taps at varying speeds (basically PWM or like a turbo controller but with the D-pad as well and with analog inputs controlling the turbo speed, which the NES Advantage already does iirc; and do that for both d-pad and button controlls). Some atari homebrew guys actually did that for the Jaguar to some extent: a "button tapper" to correct the problems with Checkered flag.

[A Black Falcon]

In the arcade? Yes, as were pretty much all arcade racers back to the early 70s I believe. (actually you even had that at home with paddles, driving controllers, and racing wheels)

Of course, yes.

But I think you mean Time Warner's Saturn port, in which case, I'm not sure.

With the 3D Controller, it's definitely not -- d-pad only, even in analog mode.

With the Mission Stick joystick, it's also not -- control is not proportional, as I said.

I don't know about the Arcade Racer wheel, though. It could potentially be, there is an Arcade Racer ad on the back cover of the manual, and games could be programmed to support only one of the analog controllers if designers wished... the 3D Controller wasn't out yet when that game came out of course, but the Arcade Racer and Mission Stick were both out, and while most games support both, or identify the Mission Stick as the wheel, some do only support one controller -- in Midway Presents Arcade's Greatest Hits: The Atari Collection 1 for instance, the analog only works with a Mission Stick, NOT the 3D Controller. It's got proportional controls in Centipede, Missile Command, and Super Breakout, but not in Asteroids, Tempest, or Battlezone, which always were digital-only I believe.

One interesting thing about digitally controlled racing games is that you could design a peripheral with analog control and an ADC that converted the analog signals into button taps at varying speeds (basically PWM or like a turbo controller but with the D-pad as well and with analog inputs controlling the turbo speed, which the NES Advantage already does iirc; and do that for both d-pad and button controlls). Some atari homebrew guys actually did that for the Jaguar to some extent: a "button tapper" to correct the problems with Checkered flag.

Even with that though, you'd still be able to tell that the controls actually aren't proportional if you look, I think... I mean, when you press "turn" in a game that isn't proportional, your car turns the degree that it always does when you press the button, turn the stick, whatever. If you turn in a game which is proportional, though, your car or whatever will turn less. As I said in my last post, I can easily tell the difference between proportional and not-proportional Saturn racing games on the Mission Stick. The non-proportional ones control better with a d-pad; the proportional ones control better with a stick of some kind.

Still though, that's a clever idea, and a pretty good one for a system like the Jaguar which has no analog controllers...

[kool kitty89]

Even with that though, you'd still be able to tell that the controls actually aren't proportional if you look, I think... I mean, when you press "turn" in a game that isn't proportional, your car turns the degree that it always does when you press the button, turn the stick, whatever. If you turn in a game which is proportional, though, your car or whatever will turn less. As I said in my last post, I can easily tell the difference between proportional and not-proportional Saturn racing games on the Mission Stick. The non-proportional ones control better with a d-pad; the proportional ones control better with a stick of some kind.

No, I meant button tapping where you DO get variable control, jut like you end up doing for dpad+button games. (tapping/rocking the d-pad and buttons at variable rates to manage such)

Still though, that's a clever idea, and a pretty good one for a system like the Jaguar which has no analog controllers...

Yeah, though that's a home brew thing and the bigger issue is how Checkered Flag controls. (turning accelerates instead of being linear, like the longer you hold the d-pad the more the driver turns, which really doesn't work, though for analog control that wouldn't make any sense at all as you have variable steering by default: for digital, all or nothing makes the most sense, nothing gradual: hence tapping being used -granted annoying and detrimental to the experience, but at least consistent)
For any digital based game, such a PWM/button tapper ADC should accurately simlate what a real analog control would allow. (the further the stick or throttle or brake is pushed the more you turn, open the throttle, or push the brake) Of course, it's not perfect and you would get a bit choppy/granular at lower rates. (probably not that noticeable on-screen though, but enough to induce drifting in games that model it)


Again, even with real analog control it's up to the game to provide a comprehensive range of steps: all such ADCs on modern consoles would be 8-bit resolution at the very least (again what consoles were using in the 70s/80s) if not higher resolution: so a least 256 positions per axis if the full range is used.
A game may limit that to far fewer steps though. (sometimes it seems more like 16 or fewer different positions, though that could also be due to precision or short range of motion of analog inputs -for paddles, steering wheel, or long throw joystick it's much more obvious than a thumbstick)
Going back to the 5200, I've heard that most games that use speed-sensitive analog control (ie faster movment when you push the stick further) if limited to only 5 positions per axis (2 speeds in 8 directions usually), though the full 8-bit range tends to be used for position sensitive games. (like paddle oriented games, Star Wars, centipede, or Missile Command)



Some cheap 3rd party analog gamepads for newer consoles also seem to have severe granularity issues. (some gamecube pads in particular seem like they only have 2 speed positions or 5 positions per axis: though it does seem more than that, it seems the main range tends to twitch toward those values, more often the faster speed too -so in SSB Melee/Brawl you end up running all the time, more like a digital controller)

[Zz Badnusty]

That is absolutely false.

not really.

[A Black Falcon]

not really.

How about proving that statement, then?

[gamevet]

Of course. But then again the car physics in CE are closer to the arcade than any of the other versions.

I prefer the power-slides of the first Saturn Daytona. They kind of suck on CCE.

[kool kitty89]

not really.

Could you elaborate? Do you mean that very granular steps were used for the analog control rather than a wide range that should have been possible? (it's not just digital control -it hard left and hard right only, but it could be much more limited than the ADC allowed -an 8-bit ADC would be 256 positions on the axis if the full range was used)