Genesis vs. SMS Games

[j_factor]

Isn't Zillion II (J) only?

No, it certainly is not.

[Lastcallhall]

No, it certainly is not.

My mistake.

[kool kitty89]

I preferred the SMS version of Ghouls 'n' Ghosts.

Bram Stoker's Dracula is a completely different game, and the SMS version is much better (the Genesis version is utter shite). Also Sonic and Sonic 2, while better on Genesis, are still worth checking out on SMS. I also thought the SMS version of Shadow of the Beast was interesting; not a completely different game, but has a different feel.

There's also the western vs Japanese Genesis release of SOTB, the JP version is a lot nicer: same ROM size, but they managed to fit more/better animation, most/all digitized sfx, modified the music slightly (seems less distorted), and modified the graphics including better color optimization and redrawing some sprites. (especially the main character, which got a similar makeover as the PCE/FMTowns ports)

It also seems a bit easier, though that may also be due to it being corrected for NTSC vs the too fast EA version. (not sure if the Amiga game was corrected for NTSC)

The SMS version might be the best 8-bit console port of the game, but of the best 8-bit version in general, I think that goes to the Lynx... unless you don't consider the Lynx 8-bit. (then again I suppose you could list the PCE CD version in that context too, and that would be the best by far other than having the wrong music like the FM Towns version)




How about Ecco or Cool Spot on the SMS vs MD?

[Defolto]

I never really liked Double Dragon on Master System it was slow and flickery :/

Not as bad as the NES version.

[retrospiel]

Personally I'd avoid 16-bit ports in general and focus on the original games the machine has to offer.

[kool kitty89]

Not as bad as the NES version.

Yeah, the NES version avoids excessive flicker by cutting the game WAY back compared to the SMS version, including no 2 player more.

However, I've heard the NES version controls better.

People seem to not really like the MD port either, but I'm not really sure why.

[retrospiel]

^ The only thing that's good about it are the graphics. The music and gameplay are absolutely unbearable IIRC.


EDIT: List of SMS games I'd recommend:

Alex Kidd in Miracle World + Alex Kidd in Shinobi World
Castle of Illusion + Land of Illusion + Legend of Illusion (all three are totally different to their MD equivalents)
Lucky Dime Caper + Deep Duck Trouble
Asterix + Asterix and the Secret Mission (totally different to what's available for MD, avoid: Asterix and the Great Rescue)
Sonic 1 + Sonic 2 + Sonic Chaos (again: totally different to their MD counterparts)
Golden Axe Warrior
Golvellius: Valley of Doom
Phantasy Star
Psychic World
Ninja Gaiden
Psycho Fox
Wonderboy in Monsterland + Dragon's Trap
Power Strike + Power Strike II
Fantasy Zone + Fantasy Zone II + Fantasy Zone: The Maze
Vampire: Master of Darkness
Bubble Bobble
Solomon no Kagi
Penguin Land
Teddy Boy Blues
S.D.I. (Global Defense)
Bomber Raid
Scramble Spirits
Submarine Attack
Double Target (Quartet)
Zillion + Zillion II: Tri Formation

Alex Kidd in Miracle World and Alex Kidd in Shinobi World are both better than Alex Kidd in the Enchanted Castle
Sonic 1 on SMS is a really great game, sometimes I think it's even better than the Mega Drive / Genesis version.
Castle of Illusion isn't really better than its MD counterpart but it's pretty good, and then there's also Land of Illusion and Legend of Illusion.
Lucky Dime Caper and Deep Duck Trouble... again, maybe not better than Quackshot, but pretty damn good games.
Asterix and Asterix: The Secret Mission both are MUCH better than any of the Asterix games for Mega Drive / Genesis (The Great Rescue and The Power of the Gods)
Ninja Gaiden on SMS definitely is better than that unfinished beta that's available for Mega Drive / Genesis.

[WaverBoy]

I think Double Dragon is superior on the SMS. It's more fun, and that's what matters.

I think the SMS Double Dragon is horrible; the controls and collision detection are among the absolute worst I've ever played. The NES version, while a lousy arcade port, is at least a decent game on its own terms, and the controls and collision detection are pretty good, much better than the mindbogglingly terrible SMS version.

[kool kitty89]

^ The only thing that's good about it are the graphics. The music and gameplay are absolutely unbearable IIRC.

In general, or compared to the NES?
The SMS version is WAY closer to the arcade (including the 2-player mode), the NES version hacks it up a ton, although one could argue that the SMS version would be a bit more playable if they HAD actually cut it down a little more. (namely in terms of sprites on-screen)


As for Music...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTRMjnlBS4c




OK I know you meant the PSG, but still that's not all that bad either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2oz8c1lj_Q


Albeit this reviewer seems to be emulating and not realize the FM wasn't standard ans STILL criticized it against the NES versions sound.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np4EABbttZE (3:45)


Oh, and of course there's the 7800 version too, which actually also includes the co-op mode, but is otherwise fairly primitive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omNFlCVbfTc

The primary advantage there is the 7800's sprite capabilities. (no flicker, even with many on-screen) Still, it definitely could have been done better, but that's what you get with limited budgets. (for development and ROM sizes -and sticking with onboard sound only) I think the sound is a bit off in that video too, it shouldn't be distorted like that.

And the 2600 version... is of course extremely primitive and rather ambitious, but it is what is is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGdPe1gq4TY

Actually it's fairly impressive and the music is surprisingly decent. (especially the boss music)


Not getting into the home computer ports, but the C64 has some nice remixes at least. (only the music OR SFX option though like a lot of European computer games... I mean the option is nice and there's a lot of games that could have benefited from it, but for the SFX option it really shouldn't disable music altogether but simply toggle one of the channels for sfx -ie "music" mode is all music with no cuts, but "SFX" mode cuts a channel while sfx are playing -particularly still for some later games on the Amiga or even one or 2 MD games)

[WaverBoy]

Not as bad as the NES version.

The NES version is at least playable, unlike the SMS version, which has abominable controls and hit detection.

Wow, I had no idea DD was ported to the Atari VCS. Crazy.

And the 7800...I stopped with the 5200, but the 7800 doesn't look like too much of a graphical improvement, and the sound is actually worse than the 5200, reverting back to the VCS sound chip for some crazy reason. There's no way that could compete against the NES. Poor Atari. They made some seriously bad decisions.

[Alianger]

The first two Mickey games are great on the SMS, faster paced and with more interesting mechanics. I also prefer Jurassic Park and Road Rash to the 16-bit versions.
Sonic 2 I'd avoid though, very unsmooth and frustrating gameplay in that one.

Exclusive game recommendations shouldn't be hard to find.

[sheath]

I completely disagree on the comments about SMS Double Dragon having bad hit detection or bad music. I played the Arcade game when it was new, and between the NES and SMS versions, the SMS wins hands down. The NES game isn't even close to being the same game, even the way the hits are pulled off is different if I recall. I prefer the SMS game to the Genesis port by Tengen even. I'm not sure I can claim this as a legitimate reason, but the Genesis port should have been on par with other arcade conversions (faux pixel perfect) by the time it came out.

I hope nobody is judging any of these games after playing them briefly over emulation with a non-standard controller, but I should know better.

Also, at Kool Kitty 89, that Youtube video of the SMS game's FM was really off in the sound department.

[mick_aka]

I actually find the 2600 version pretty impressive.

[kool kitty89]

And the 7800...I stopped with the 5200, but the 7800 doesn't look like too much of a graphical improvement, and the sound is actually worse than the 5200, reverting back to the VCS sound chip for some crazy reason. There's no way that could compete against the NES. Poor Atari. They made some seriously bad decisions.

The 7800 is a totally different animal than the 5200, but the onboard sound is unarguably weaker. They stuck with the TIA (2600) sound generation onboard to save cost for the 1984 release with provisions for external enhancement (initial plans to use POKEY in select games but also a small, low-cost optimized sound chip -initially "GUMBY" but later "MINI"), but all that changed after the mess Warner made selling atari in mid 1984, but that's another story altogether. (in the context of when the 7800 was finally launched in 1986, they definitely could have made other design choices -more RAM, added sound hardware -ie an onboard POKEY, etc but the design had been long set by that point and the "MINI" chip had been dropped -the main reason POKEY wasn't added initially was simply due to board space on the early models produced in 1984, there was simply no room and they could have used a riser board but further add to cost and low-cost was a significant design goal for the 7800)

In terms of graphics, they're very different than the 5200/8-bit computers in general using the custom MARIA chip and there are a lot of trade-offs using it vs the GTIA+ANTIC chipset of the 5200/A8, but in general it's significantly more powerful, especially in the context of sprites. (up to 12 color sprites in 160 wide mode and no hard limit on sprites displayed but the practical limit is close to 100 -no flicker ever)
It has the same 6502 CPU at the same speed as the A8/5200 and NES (pretty much) and like the 5200/A8 (but unlike the NES) the RAM/ROM bus is shared between graphics and CPU.

MARIA's graphics don't work like the common tile+sprite based hardware of contemporaries though, which was one disadvantage: had it been released in 1984 (even with limited support due to the crash), programmers switching over from the 2600 likely would have had a much easier time of it. (the 2600 is significantly harder to work with in several areas)
It was pretty impressive for 1984 (as was the Famicom in 1983 -albeit it really didn't show that until a bit later), but limited in some areas due to low-cost emphasis and backwards compatibility. (of course the A400/800 chipset was far more impressive given it was from 1979)
Then there's the Atari 3200 planned before the 5200 in development 1980/81 (more or less a hybrid 2600/A8 design), but that was dropped due to time constraints and mounting competition in favor of the "quick fix" 5200. (which was rather flawed by comparison, and it's a bit odd that they didn't just go with the 3200 concept but smack both TIA+GTIA onboard instead of the Super-TIA, other than obvious cost disadvantages, but the 5200 didn't seem really aimed at cost cutting either overall -the other option would be to push the 400 as a gaming machine instead -it was already price competitive with the 5200 in 1982)

Commando is one of the best looking and sound games published for the 7800, though that still doesn't fully demonstrate its capabilities. (one of the 2 games to use a POKEY on-cart and the onyl game to use TIA sound as well as POKEY)
The sprite pushing capabilities were the real strength, and even Double Dragon showed that to some extent with the lack of flicker, but it could really have shown off in certain genres, and more so in general if it had had a more dedicated software development base. (SHMUPS might be a strong genre in general, though one it got few of -like Xevious- and the single board arcade games also show the sprite pushing capabilities compared to the NES: like with the properly animated and fully dynamic enemies in Galaga vs the BG tile based enemies on the NES with choppy movements and switch to flickering sprites in more detailed movement, Robotron could be done like that on the NES -the 5200 managed a lesser port using software rendering in the bitmap mode but even that wouldn't be practical on the NES- Joust wasn't nearly as good on the NES either)


Again, ROM size was a huge limit (kept low due to costs), plus general developer support limited by Nintendo's licensing policies and, of course Atari Corp's limited budget for software development. (and lack of the internal developers of the former Atari Inc)

I actually find the 2600 version pretty impressive.

Yeah, it's not really a good port, but considering what was managed, it's pretty impressive.

I completely disagree on the comments about SMS Double Dragon having bad hit detection or bad music. I played the Arcade game when it was new, and between the NES and SMS versions, the SMS wins hands down. The NES game isn't even close to being the same game, even the way the hits are pulled off is different if I recall. I prefer the SMS game to the Genesis port by Tengen even. I'm not sure I can claim this as a legitimate reason, but the Genesis port should have been on par with other arcade conversions (faux pixel perfect) by the time it came out.

Yeah, one context is in terms of arcade authenticity, and the SMS version wins easily there (graphics, co-op, level design, content, etc), but the other area is as games in general, and that's where the NES conversion can contend on its own merits (not really a port given the significant amount of altered and added content).
The latter issue is definitely up to personal preference, but for me, even with the flicker and hit detection issues, the SMS version is fine, especially with the infinite continues offered.

[quote]I hope nobody is judging any of these games after playing them briefly over emulation with a non-standard controller, but I should know better.[quote]
Nothign wrong with using emulation for comparison... in fact you might be a good deal more forgiving in emulation than using an SMS gamepad (especially with flicker disabled).
But the majority of complaints are from users on real hardware and the biggest issue is the hit detection for sure.
Even Mark Busler (who tends to be exceedingly forgiving in his reviews) shared that view over the flicker and hit detection problems:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgrQY08zToc

Also, at Kool Kitty 89, that Youtube video of the SMS game's FM was really off in the sound department.

How so, you mean a bit distorted? I like the FM in general, one of the better uses of the YM2413 IMO. (it certainly sounds cleaner than that in fusion)

I still think the PSG soundtrack is pretty decent in any case, but the FM is great, better than the Genesis version too. (and pretty faithful at approximating the arcade within the limits of the YM2413)

I remember some past criticism of the Genesis port though, but not specifics. The music is arguably better on the SMS (the FM certainly, the PSG is far more arguable), though for a 512 kB (4 Mbit) cart, it's not a bad conversion, obviously not a super high-priority release though. (hence only a 512 kB cart in 1992 and the late release in general of a rather old game)
I'm not sure of any Tengen version though, just the Ballistic published one. (clearly noted as being reprogrammed by Accolade -which wasn't known for their amazing audio quality )

[sheath]

The classic gameroom review admits straight off that the NES game was played first, so the SMS game was automatically the "runner-up" comparison. This happens quite a bit, and the review comments that multi-platform games back then were almost always completely unique.

If I were to have played NES Double Dragon first and then played the Arcade game I would have run into similar trouble. It's the "bad collision detection" thing that I take issue with. The SMS game does a fair job of porting the Arcade gameplay, including AI stepping above and below your attacks constantly. If that is bad collision, it certainly isn't the fault of the gameplay engine. Shouldn't opponents try to avoid getting hit? Then again, we're talking about games, and for some reason people expect fighting games to be easy nowadays.

As for the FM in the one Youtube clip, it just sounds like an approximation. I'd have to do a comparison to be sure, but I'd say the highs are too high and the lows are the wrong pitch just listening to it. I enjoy playing my US Double Dragon with or without the YM 2413 enabled on real hardware. If it sounded like that with the FM chip I'd never play it again. I hate shrill sound effects.