Genesis vs. SMS Games

[kool kitty89]

The classic gameroom review admits straight off that the NES game was played first, so the SMS game was automatically the "runner-up" comparison. This happens quite a bit, and the review comments that multi-platform games back then were almost always completely unique.

He also hasn't done a back to back comparison and it had been a long time since he'd played the NES version. However, note that it was directly compared with the control/hit detection in the context of Streets of Rage.

But seriously, that's an extreme case for CGR, the only other game in that show I remember him ever panning like that (aside from some really terrible VCS games like Firefly) was Heavy Nova. (Galaxy Force II didn't get a shining review either though)

One other thing, of course, is that home ports of arcade games tend to normally drop the difficulty a bit to facilitate the different context. (ie at home and NOT a quarter cruncher) Of course, one simple option there is to treat the game like the arcade but with infinite credits (which the SMS version does), so you're like a rich kid at the arcade.
The better case is to have general difficulty options to ramp it up to arcade level (or further) or select much easier settings. That's not really the case here in general, though the Genesis port has options for lives+continues, but not difficulty, so that's sort of moot compared to the SMS with infinite continues.

If I were to have played NES Double Dragon first and then played the Arcade game I would have run into similar trouble. It's the "bad collision detection" thing that I take issue with. The SMS game does a fair job of porting the Arcade gameplay, including AI stepping above and below your attacks constantly. If that is bad collision, it certainly isn't the fault of the gameplay engine. Shouldn't opponents try to avoid getting hit? Then again, we're talking about games, and for some reason people expect fighting games to be easy nowadays.

I don't think that's what they're talking about: it's the fast that it looks like you should be landing hits, but there's no contact: if they wanted to make the enemies dodge like that, the sprites should move/animate accordingly. (and with animation limited, movement is more the key)

I'm not particularly good at beat em' ups regardless, but playing both, I found the SMS version more fun than the NES one once I got used to it. The fact that there were infinite continued made it a lot more forgiving too.

As for the FM in the one Youtube clip, it just sounds like an approximation. I'd have to do a comparison to be sure, but I'd say the highs are too high and the lows are the wrong pitch just listening to it. I enjoy playing my US Double Dragon with or without the YM 2413 enabled on real hardware. If it sounded like that with the FM chip I'd never play it again. I hate shrill sound effects.

Other than the distortion it seems fine, rather like it does on real hardware and in fusion, but yes, it's a bit distorted. (try playing it in fusion and see how that compares, of course, with the filter disabled, some stuff is a bit sharp -it's up to personal preference if you like the low pass filtering)

[kool kitty89]

Hmm, taking a closer look at Double dragon: the SMS version's collision really does fit the arcade, but it's the lack of dodging/blocking animation for enemies that makes it confusing.

The other thing is that all enemies attack you at once and gang up on you in the SMS version (and Arcade), but several other versions don't do that: I'm not sure about all the home conversions, but the Genesis version seems to have enemies wait to attack you if you're currently engaged with another (or at least more reluctant to attack you) and I think the NES is like that too.

The SMS port definitely seems a lot closer to the arcade in several respects (namely control and difficulty) than the Genesis port or the NES conversion. (Genesis graphics are much closer to the arcade unsurprisingly)

[WaverBoy]

The classic gameroom review admits straight off that the NES game was played first, so the SMS game was automatically the "runner-up" comparison. This happens quite a bit, and the review comments that multi-platform games back then were almost always completely unique.

If I were to have played NES Double Dragon first and then played the Arcade game I would have run into similar trouble. It's the "bad collision detection" thing that I take issue with. The SMS game does a fair job of porting the Arcade gameplay, including AI stepping above and below your attacks constantly. If that is bad collision, it certainly isn't the fault of the gameplay engine. Shouldn't opponents try to avoid getting hit? Then again, we're talking about games, and for some reason people expect fighting games to be easy nowadays.

No, we just expect the enemy to get hit when we visibly hit him, and that doesn't happen much in the good-looking but rotten-playing SMS port of Double Dragon. The collision detection is extremely sloppy; if that's the way it was in the arcade version, I'm glad the NES version is an inaccurate port. In the NES version, when you hit the enemy, he gets hit.

[kool kitty89]

No, we just expect the enemy to get hit when we visibly hit him, and that doesn't happen much in the good-looking but rotten-playing SMS port of Double Dragon. The collision detection is extremely sloppy; if that's the way it was in the arcade version, I'm glad the NES version is an inaccurate port. In the NES version, when you hit the enemy, he gets hit.

No, sheath makes a good point: after closely examining the arcade original: the SMS game plays much more closely to the arcade (in general mechanics) than most other ports including the Genesis one.

The enemies are supposed to gang up on you and are supposed to not be easy to hit (you miss more than 50% of the time unless you really know the timing and tricks to land hits), but the problem is the SMS game cut back too much on animation and thus you don't see the enemies dodging your punches as the arcade shows.
So all it did was NOT cut back the difficulty like many other home arcade conversions tend to do, but it did offer infinite continues instead.

Trying it myself, it seems perfectly playable for what it is, and the best 8-bit conversion of the arcade game. (the NES game can be judged differently for its own merits, but it falls flat on its face in terms of doing justice to the arcade compared to the SMS game)

[Thenewguy]

Double Dragon on the SMS is utter trash, it plays nothing like the arcade version at all, even with the level alterations and experience system the NES version at least retains the feel of the original game.

Double Dragon on SMS has

Crap hit detection
Crap difficulty curve
Crap combos
Crap music
Crap animation
Flickery Sprites
Simplified gameplay missing ladders and conveyer belts.

[kool kitty89]

I really don't see the hit detection issue, jut the lack of dodging animation compared to the arcade.

Difficulty curve seems similar to the arcade, but I'm not really experience with the arcade machine (I've played it once or twice I think, but years ago and I didn't get very far) and I haven't compared them side by side in emulation.

Combos are not the same as the arcade but seem fine generally, though the jump mechanics are a little off.

Music is perfectly fine, better than the genesis music IMO, though in terms of the PSG it's really a toss-up. If you have the Fm sound, it's an easy win for the SMS over pretty much any other home console port prior to later re-releases and compilations.

Animation is limited, but fundamentally so... the cart space is small and remember SMS graphics use higher color depth and thus take up a lot more space than NES graphics. (and still the animation isn't really worse than the NES) Remember the SMS and NES versions use the exact same mount of ROM at 256 kB, so different trade-offs had to be made for the SMS game. (especially due to the graphics taking more space) That's opposed to the 8-bit computer versions which had to work within the RAM limits of those platforms as well as the 7800 version's smaller cart. (albeit still 128 kB, so not as limited as computers that had to work with less RAM)

Sprite flicker is absolutely necessary and the only option. The only reason the NES doesn't do it as bad is because they limit the number of enemies on-screen more. (albeit the game could have been modified to have enemies try to stay parallel to eachother and not line up horizontally -thus not exceeding the sprite/scanline limit as often -the 2600 version actually does that, but it really has to or it would be nothing but tons of flicker or single enemies on-screen)


Sheath definitely seems to make a better comparison though with actual experience across both versions, and while many of these metrics are totally subjective (especially things like music or graphical/art design), the issue of arcade authenticity in general is another issue.

[Thenewguy]

Difficulty curve seems similar to the arcade

The difficulty curve is completely ridiculous, you get on the spot respawn and unlimited continues until the final level, my 2 year old cousin could get to the end of that game

In fact you can't really even say that it has a difficulty curve at all, it has a difficulty line which crawls along the floor until a huge step up on the final level.

Combos are not the same as the arcade but seem fine generally, though the jump mechanics are a little off.

The hair pull and throw don't work at all 50% of the time which for the most part leaves you with pushing forwards, pressing punch, and doing flying kicks along flat ground for the entire game, not that tactics matter anyway seeing as you effectively can't die until the last level.

Music is perfectly fine, better than the genesis music IMO

On the music front I was talking from personal experience on real hardware back in the day, I've never heard the added Japanese hardware music before, which sounds completely different.

and still the animation isn't really worse than the NES

Yes it is.

But then again none of this really takes into account the fact that the extra sections in the NES game are actually quite playable and add variety anyway, as opposed to the broken moveset, and lack of most ladders/Conveyer Belts/Holes in the Master System version which subtract from the variety.

The worst thing about the NES version is the lack of 2-player mode, which is a damn shame, however, the SMS version is so painfully dull that back in the day my friend could never persuade any of us to play it with him on co-op anyway.

Double Dragon is one of those weird games that's always getting brought up as championing the Master System for some reason, in actual fact its an unpolished, rushed, bore-a-thon.

Its weird because the SMS actually has tons of better versions of multi-formats, so why people fixate on Double Dragon I have no idea.

[kool kitty89]

The difficulty curve is completely ridiculous, you get on the spot respawn and unlimited continues until the final level, my 2 year old cousin could get to the end of that game

I meant in terms of combat, not continues...

IMO there's nothing wrong with setting the continues system like that: is it any different than an unlimited supply of quarters at the arcade?
Though I would say that it would have been preferable to allow the user to select the difficulty in options, but making it easy is better than making it too hard.

I mean Soul Star has infinite continues and that's still crushingly difficult. Sometimes the real challenge is simply progressing in the game, not running out of lives.
Anyway, I personally love games that don't force you to end the game like that or go back to the beginning ever, regardless of length (assuming you're talking more complex games with endings vs simpler score only based arcade type games). I like Pitfall II's continue/save point system too, there's a point penalty of course though.

The save/infinite continue thing is also a big part of what makes Yoshi's Island and Sonic 3/3&K as good as they are. That's also what made Return of the Jedi the most fun of the Super Star Wars games.
To some extent it's similar to adventure/action adventure games in general where you die and go back to the last save point and thus can work your way up with trial and error and NOT have to re-do the entire game.

Granted, that's more important for longer/more complex games, and varies in other ways. (but that's one thing I like about certain genres I really like as well as modern games)

And some shorter games still limit lives/continues and it works OK, especially with more forgiving difficulty options and especially a reasonable amount of save points+continues/extra lives to collect on the way. (Star Fox on the SNES manages that well)

The hair pull and throw don't work at all 50% of the time which for the most part leaves you with pushing forwards, pressing punch, and doing flying kicks along flat ground for the entire game, not that tactics matter anyway seeing as you effectively can't die until the last level.

Umm, couldn't enemies doge special moves in the arcade? (so the 50% thing would be similar to that, but missing the corresponding animation)

On the music front I was talking from personal experience on real hardware back in the day, I've never heard the added Japanese hardware music before, which sounds completely different.

Yes, as I said I personally like the PSG music a lot too, perhaps not as good as the NES remix, but hardly bad by SN76489 standards.

Yes it is.

But then again none of this really takes into account the fact that the extra sections in the NES game are actually quite playable and add variety anyway, as opposed to the broken moveset, and lack of most ladders/Conveyer Belts/Holes in the Master System version which subtract from the variety.

Yes, again a TOTALLY different context from comparing to the arcade:
there's too things: comparing it in terms of being a conversion of the Arcade original and in the context of the games themselves. Thus the NES additions would only apply in the latter cases.

And again, the animation was limited by the SMS's graphics taking more space than the NES, that's what you get for more color. (taking up roughly double the space of NES graphics) Unless you think they should have used a 4 Mbit cart and made the game unreasonably expensive, or cut down the graphics to the point of making it look no better (if not generally worse) than the NES.

The worst thing about the NES version is the lack of 2-player mode, which is a damn shame, however, the SMS version is so painfully dull that back in the day my friend could never persuade any of us to play it with him on co-op anyway.

2 player mode would have, like the SMS version, made for lots of flicker, and of course flicker is a bit worse in PAL than NTSC due to the lower refersh rate of the TV (ie 50/25 Hz vs 30/60 Hz).
Perhaps a little less due to the more limited enemy count, but that's a trade-off that comes with the territory.

Its weird because the SMS actually has tons of better versions of multi-formats, so why people fixate on Double Dragon I have no idea.

Sometimes you have to look at the dates the games were designed and the amount of ROM used too. There's fundamental limitations in that context, and if you limit both games to similar ROM sizes, there's always going to be trade-offs: in particular the NES might have more levels, more varied graphics, or more animation due to the smaller space they take up. (or for that matter, might fit in voice/sound samples or more of them -especially with the hardware DPCM playback vs the SMS's limited software playback)

If the SMS game came later and/or used more memory, that's a given for superiority (unless they really screwed up), but otherwise you could see a ton of trade-offs as demonstrated in double dragon to some extent. (for the same ROM you have to cut things back on the SMS version: sure you get more colors per tile, but also 2x the space on-cart for full 15 color tiles/sprites, not to mention VRAM/DMA limitations vs the NES's dedicated video bus on the cart)

[Furnessly]

Umm, couldn't enemies doge special moves in the arcade? (so the 50% thing would be similar to that, but missing the corresponding animation)

The enemies couldn't dodge the elbow move in the arcade version at all and the game was know for that where people just used the elbow move to complete the game.

Yes, as I said I personally like the PSG music a lot too, perhaps not as good as the NES remix, but hardly bad by SN76489 standards.

The music's not too bad by Master System standards and actually listenable but seems a bit too high pitched and could have done a bit better. Then again this isn't my area...

And again, the animation was limited by the SMS's graphics taking more space than the NES, that's what you get for more color. (taking up roughly double the space of NES graphics) Unless you think they should have used a 4 Mbit cart and made the game unreasonably expensive, or cut down the graphics to the point of making it look no better (if not generally worse) than the NES.

Sometimes you have to look at the dates the games were designed and the amount of ROM used too. There's fundamental limitations in that context, and if you limit both games to similar ROM sizes, there's always going to be trade-offs: in particular the NES might have more levels, more varied graphics, or more animation due to the smaller space they take up. (or for that matter, might fit in voice/sound samples or more of them -especially with the hardware DPCM playback vs the SMS's limited software playback)

If the SMS game came later and/or used more memory, that's a given for superiority (unless they really screwed up), but otherwise you could see a ton of trade-offs as demonstrated in double dragon to some extent. (for the same ROM you have to cut things back on the SMS version: sure you get more colors per tile, but also 2x the space on-cart for full 15 color tiles/sprites, not to mention VRAM/DMA limitations vs the NES's dedicated video bus on the cart)

From my experience of looking into the data the SMS Double Dragon port actually wastes a bit of data as parts of the Williams sprite, the text, the little mugshots of Billy and Jimmy that are used in the HUD and the Sega logo gets duplicated throughout the ROM. As for the NES version that duplicates as well with the Billy Lee's sprites and the text but looks tidier than on the SMS port. Also I noticed that apart from Marian, the character sprites seem to look the same except the SMS port has more colour. Hmm... it seems either Technos had more involvement than I thought with SMS version or someone used the NES version as a base for the sprites. Then again the SMS version did come out later too since the NES version was released in May 1988 while the SMS version came out in October of the same year.

The ROM size is identical (both being 256Kb) and for the SMS there were tricks to reduce the space or include more stuff like using compression or using the 3 bits per pixel mode that some games used for the SMS but the cost of using a lower palette (8 colours instead of 16).

Well I thought Double Dragon SMS seemed a bit off from playing it, after playing the original arcade with all its slowdown and the Genesis version. The collision detection is off as in that the enemies hit you but it is harder for you to hit them unless you jump kick and the cheating elbow move is harder to pull off.

Anyway, aren't most Double Dragon ports actually a bit on the rubbish side?

[gamegenie]

Home Alone on Genesis ass rapes the SMS version. Even the Game Gear version which is a down sized port of the Genesis version ass rapes the SMS version.

[sheath]

Alright, I just spent some time playing the SMS version on a Model 1 SMS with an SMS gamepad and the MAME version (US Rev 1) using a Saturn pad. The only difference I could find is that the arcade version has a lot more animation. The basic punches and kicks land exactly the same way in both versions. The Leaping Reverse Kick is a medium-close range attack in both version, and the Elbow is a super long range attack in the MAME version due to the stepping in animation.

Perhaps to fix the move to make the game more evenly challenging, the Elbow in the SMS game is reduced to a close range attack barely as long as the Leaping Reverse Kick. It is also more difficult to pull off as it requires simultaneously pressing the opposite direction and button 2, whereas the Arcade game only required Jump and Punch to be hit simultaneously. The Elbow does becomes useful when you are above or below an opponent. The AI will stop any forward movement to move up or down to match your line within about the height of the sprite's boots, which is the range give or take where hits will land as well. This is actually fairly generous hit detection for a beat-em up.

In the SMS game the Elbow is very useful when you are standing on an opponent's toes. I believe that video abused this by showing the player trying to use medium-long range Punches and Kicks (button mashing) instead of the close range attacks like the Elbow, Headbutt or Leaping Reverse Kick. With that accounted for, there are no hit detection problems in the SMS game. The AI actually stays on the same line deliberately, just like it does in the MAME version. In fact, I did not find any substantial differences in the AI or hit detection between the SMS port and MAME Double Dragon.

That video reviewer also did not seem to understand the standard 2D beat-em up mechanic of walking above or below the opponents and then blasting them when they walk straight to you. This is the way I play all Double Dragon and Golden Axe games. Only in Final Fight or Streets or Rage do I ever try attacking straight on, but in Final Fight or Sor2-3 I usually jump in with a stun attack and then go for as many hits as possible.

Back to Double Dragon, the Headbutt is a good way to get punched in the face in both versions. Grapples and throws seem to happen automatically only when an opponent is below a certain level of energy, which is difficult to gauge because there aren't energy bars.

I noticed that the SMS game does not seem to have sprite overdraw flicker problems as badly as it has sprite priority problems. For example, the first boss will flicker if his body is over the barrel sprite or over another sprite regardless of whether they are even near the same scanline. The same "flicker" happens when the player sprite stands in the same spot as another sprite regardless of whether there are other sprites on the same line. This should just be a tile priority issue, not a sprite limit issue. When three enemy sprites are walking toward the player sprite, and not overlapping, only parts of one or two sprites will flicker, this seems more how the sprite limit flickering should look.

[Thenewguy]

IMO there's nothing wrong with setting the continues system like that: is it any different than an unlimited supply of quarters at the arcade?

In the arcade it costs you money , there is a cost/risk from dying

The save/infinite continue thing is also a big part of what makes Yoshi's Island and Sonic 3/3&K as good as they are.

Why are you bringing those games up?! neither has on the spot respawns.

When I say my two year old cousin who has trouble holding the joypad, and walks off the screen literally twice a minute can get to the final level, I literally mean that, nothing you do in the first three quarters of the game has any effect on the final level, enemies do not come back after you die, and you reappear in the same place, you can just whittle them down whilst losing lives, its not an "easy" challenge, there is no challenge until the final level, no sense of satifaction at all, nothing

Umm, couldn't enemies dodge special moves in the arcade? (so the 50% thing would be similar to that, but missing the corresponding animation)

NO, you hit them, they clutch their stomach, you grab them 100% of the time, you then hair pull of throw, also I was being forgiving earlier when I said 50%, grabbing virtually never works at all in the SMS version, its not reliable enough to use properly.

Not that it matters much because there's virtually no opportunity to throw people down holes anyway because most of the holes and conveyer belts are missing from the stages.

Yes, again a TOTALLY different context from comparing to the arcade:
there's too things: comparing it in terms of being a conversion of the Arcade original and in the context of the games themselves. Thus the NES additions would only apply in the latter cases.

No, because the NES version may change some of the level designs but the original gameplay is still intact so it plays more like the arcade version anyway, yeah you have to muck about with gaining experience, but at least the hair pull and throw moves are there somewhere in a useable form, the SMS version is like a vaguely similar looking game with half the gameplay elements missing.

The NES version is better than the SMS version as a port of the arcade and better as an original game too.

the animation was limited by the SMS's graphics taking more space than the NES, that's what you get for more color. (taking up roughly double the space of NES graphics) Unless you think they should have used a 4 Mbit cart and made the game unreasonably expensive, or cut down the graphics to the point of making it look no better (if not generally worse) than the NES.

Gameplay is what matters, if you have to cut down the graphics then cut down the graphics.

Although to be fair you're all exagerating the graphics of the Master System version anyway, the SMS version's graphics are very rushed, and very inconsistent throughout, sometimes they look excellent, whilst other sections look like crap, the NES game, whilst having worse colours (no fault of the programmers) looks consistently more polished than the SMS version



Also, with all the talk going on about cartridge sizes remember that the NES version has extra levels with completely unique backgrounds

2 player mode would have, like the SMS version, made for lots of flicker, and of course flicker is a bit worse in PAL than NTSC due to the lower refersh rate of the TV (ie 50/25 Hz vs 30/60 Hz).
Perhaps a little less due to the more limited enemy count, but that's a trade-off that comes with the territory.

Some of this is pretty funny, I thought hardware sprites were the be all and end all for you, I'm loving the fact that on 2-player mode on Target Renegade on the Spectrum there are six characters onscreen with no flicker

Couldn't they have used software sprites at all? even just for one enemy at a time?

Sometimes you have to look at the dates the games were designed and the amount of ROM used too. There's fundamental limitations in that context, and if you limit both games to similar ROM sizes, there's always going to be trade-offs: in particular the NES might have more levels, more varied graphics, or more animation due to the smaller space they take up. (or for that matter, might fit in voice/sound samples or more of them -especially with the hardware DPCM playback vs the SMS's limited software playback

Fair enough, but this isn't about fairness, its a straight comparison, giving the reasons why the SMS port is arse does not make it any better.

[BrianC]

When I say my two year old cousin who has trouble holding the joypad, and walks off the screen literally twice a minute can get to the final level, I literally mean that, nothing you do in the first three quarters of the game has any effect on the final level, enemies do not come back after you die, and you reappear in the same place, you can just whittle them down whilst losing lives, its not an "easy" challenge, there is no challenge until the final level, no sense of satifaction at all, nothing

Playing any instant re-spawn continue game like that sucks the fun out of it, and gives zero indication of the true difficulty of the game. Why the heck are you even using the infinite continues if you hate them so much? The game has a limited amount of lives for a reason. The fun and challenge comes from learning and playing the game. Just letting the game coast like that isn't doing either.

[jerry coeurl]

Anyway, aren't most Double Dragon ports actually a bit on the rubbish side?

I think this is an important point, and one that this discussion has missed entirely. Who cares about crappy/incomplete/inaccurate ports of Double Dragon when we got SoR, baby.

[kool kitty89]

Playing any instant re-spawn continue game like that sucks the fun out of it, and gives zero indication of the true difficulty of the game. Why the heck are you even using the infinite continues if you hate them so much? The game has a limited amount of lives for a reason. The fun and challenge comes from learning and playing the game. Just letting the game coast like that isn't doing either.

I totally disagree. There's a lot of games that I like but gave up on due to the sheer difficulty, albeit in a handful of cases that was actually due to sheer difficulty even with infinite continues. (Super Empire Strikes Back comes to mind)
It's not about hating a game, it's about simply finding the difficulty level unplayable no matter how much you practice. (I personally suck at most 2D platformers and find some of the "easy" ones to be the most fun by far, it's just not in my skill set as a gamer, but in general I also hate losing progress and having to totally restart a game as that gets tedious, especially if you've already maxed out your skill on the earlier stages and just need to practice on the area you died at -saves/passwords are preferable though)

If you don't have such options by default: going back later using cheats can really make it fun. (be it using later password saves, in-game cheat codes, or cheating/hacking devices)
Sometimes the challenge is just getting through the game, not getting through with limited lives.

Albeit, instant respawning really is more the issue specifically, and that's a bit different from what I was mentioning above... though in some examples, that makes it all the more fun too: like playing FPSs in co-op that add respawning: makes for really fun party gaming. (and sometimes there's a bit of added strategy) Plus there's saves on top of that.

In that respect though: maybe they could have given infinite continues but forced you to re-start a level (or go back to a mid point) after you used up all the lives in one continue. (as it is, the game is more or less like having infinite quarters at the arcade)