Genesis vs. SMS Games

[WoodyXP]

I actually find the 2600 version pretty impressive.

Oh man that game is hard as hell. Anybody who can make it through the first level is legendary, IMO.

But yeah it's sweet seeing the 2600 pull of a DD port.

[BrianC]

I totally disagree. There's a lot of games that I like but gave up on due to the sheer difficulty, albeit in a handful of cases that was actually due to sheer difficulty even with infinite continues. (Super Empire Strikes Back comes to mind)
It's not about hating a game, it's about simply finding the difficulty level unplayable no matter how much you practice. (I personally suck at most 2D platformers and find some of the "easy" ones to be the most fun by far, it's just not in my skill set as a gamer, but in general I also hate losing progress and having to totally restart a game as that gets tedious, especially if you've already maxed out your skill on the earlier stages and just need to practice on the area you died at -saves/passwords are preferable though)

I guess I should have said can suck the fun out of it. Anyway, the point is that continues, especially instant respawn continues, are not a real indicator of difficulty. Also, with Super Empire Strikes back, if I remember correctly, it puts you back at start or a checkpoint when using a continue. Even with constant continues, the stage or part of one still needs to be played through. With instant respawn continues, you can basically keep getting killed and still get through a stage.

If you don't have such options by default: going back later using cheats can really make it fun. (be it using later password saves, in-game cheat codes, or cheating/hacking devices)
Sometimes the challenge is just getting through the game, not getting through with limited lives.

My point is that using cheats (and I don't mean continues in general, just the constant use of instant respawn continues, especially to the extreme Thenewguy described) won't give someone the ability to play the game without them. That only comes from practice.

Albeit, instant respawning really is more the issue specifically, and that's a bit different from what I was mentioning above... though in some examples, that makes it all the more fun too: like playing FPSs in co-op that add respawning: makes for really fun party gaming. (and sometimes there's a bit of added strategy) Plus there's saves on top of that.

The type of instant respawning for FPS games in multiplayer and what they are designed around compared to beat 'em ups or action games is a bit different. I was specifically referring to the instant respawning combined with continues, and mainly for more arcade like games. I don't have a problem with the instant respawn after a life, rather than a continue, or the way it works in FPS multiplayer games.

In that respect though: maybe they could have given infinite continues but forced you to re-start a level (or go back to a mid point) after you used up all the lives in one continue. (as it is, the game is more or less like having infinite quarters at the arcade)

My point wasn't about what they should or shouldn't have done. My point was that continues are optional and that Double Dragon SMS was misjudged because someone credit fed the game and labelled it as the real difficulty.

[Thenewguy]

My point wasn't about what they should or shouldn't have done. My point was that continues are optional and that Double Dragon SMS was misjudged because someone credit fed the game and labelled it as the real difficulty.

Bollocks, I'm sorry, but I have no interest in creating self imposed rules just to make a game challenging, I'm not a daminmancejin2 with his constant "complete Shadow Dancer only using the dog and 5 shurikens for the whole game" kind of person.

I will use all resources that have been made available to me by the programmers, the idea that I as a player who's primary goal is to beat the game should be expected to purposefully turn the console off and start again every time I use a continue is retarded and is just an excuse for their lack of foresight.

There's a reason why virtually every arcade port from that period usually automatically allocates you ~3 credits, its to draw a line in the sand and show you where you stand in regards to the rules of the game.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I only have a problem with infinite continues and on the spot respawns, many games work excellently with infinite continues when they use checkpoints.

[kool kitty89]

My point wasn't about what they should or shouldn't have done. My point was that continues are optional and that Double Dragon SMS was misjudged because someone credit fed the game and labelled it as the real difficulty.

Yeah, but self-imposed limitations/challenges are a bit different from hard gameplay configurations. Granted, putting on your own restrictions and selecting the difficulty in a menu are rather similar other than the game keeping track of the restrictions rather than you.

Of course, you have lots of people who take up such challenges and self-imposed restrictions among other things... though some newer games actually add a bunch of ridiculous custom difficulty/challenge modes. (like what Mega Man 9 and 10 do)

EDIT: Just to clarify, I only have a problem with infinite continues and on the spot respawns, many games work excellently with infinite continues when they use checkpoints.

I can agree on that, and there's certainly cases of that being poorly managed as well. Like SHMUPs that force you to re-start a level after one death (not per continue, but after one death) with a single hit kill type game especially. (and especially with no chepoints other than level starts)

Vapor Trail isn't one hit kill, but you only get a few hits and you have to re-start the level from the beginning... but oddly enough the 2-player mode has continuous respawns and continues up until you run out completely. (and in such a fast paced and fluid game, that the case where infinite continues plus checkpoints would not be preferred over limited continues and respawning)
Actually, I suppose that's a little like the mechanics of FPSs with respawning in 2 player mode, to some extent at least.
Regardless, VT is much more fun 2 player.

And in Double Dragon, if they did create a checkpoint system for continues, it would be preferable to not force both players (in 2p mode) to re-start when one dies, but wait until both run out of lives... or maybe better to have the lives shared.

[sheath]

Well, since this topic has derailed, I also have an opinion! I have traded every Arcade compilation disk from the PS2-Xbox-GC era that I have bought for several reasons.

First, the music was always too subdued and did not sound like it was even attempting to "emulate" the original. Second, all of the games, especially the beat-em ups, had unlimited continues and no penalties. Third, apart from the Dreamcast controller, the other three control pads for that generation are terrible for fast action games.

Now, why do I not hate Double Dragon on SMS because of reason number two above? Simple, I played Double Dragon on SMS in 1988, and nothing better came along until Golden Axe on Genesis in 1989. At least, nothing better that allowed 2-player coop like God intended came out until 1989.

Also, the original Arcade Shinobi and the PC-Engine version do_not allow continues in the last level. I find this frustrating and would use a level select code to play the last level alone as a result.

[kool kitty89]

Well, since this topic has derailed, I also have an opinion! I have traded every Arcade compilation disk from the PS2-Xbox-GC era that I have bought for several reasons.

First, the music was always too subdued and did not sound like it was even attempting to "emulate" the original. Second, all of the games, especially the beat-em ups, had unlimited continues and no penalties. Third, apart from the Dreamcast controller, the other three control pads for that generation are terrible for fast action games.

That's true: all direct compilations/emulation of arcade versions basically give you infinite quarters to pop into the machine -albeit some arcade games had additional limits to end the game regardless of money spent. (like time limits on many racing games)
And there's some arcade games that put a cap on credits as well, or only allowed 1 credit. (I think some of the early 80s/late 70s games did that, but I'm not sure how frequent it was -I certainly recall most Atari Inc Arcade games I've played being that way)

So it's a matter of a direct arcade "port" vs modifications made to make it a home game: among those is often reducing the difficulty curve for many arcade games but also modifying the lives/continue system to cater more to common console game "standards."

I mean look at things like Contra... well there's integral cheats (albeit not quite infinite lives) to address that too and the NES version did keep the 2p mode.

[BrianC]

Yeah, but self-imposed limitations/challenges are a bit different from hard gameplay configurations. Granted, putting on your own restrictions and selecting the difficulty in a menu are rather similar other than the game keeping track of the restrictions rather than you.

But continues and the option to cancel them, are something put in by the programmers, as are the options (though the options have defaults for a reason). Personally, I don't see how continues are something that is a requirement to be used (and I didn't say they shouldn't be used at all, though instant respawn continues...), especially since the games have lives for a reason and give the option to not use the continues.

Please go back and read my previous posts. I know it's a hassle, but I said some things in those posts that contradict the assumptions made in the replies.

Of course, you have lots of people who take up such challenges and self-imposed restrictions among other things... though some newer games actually add a bunch of ridiculous custom difficulty/challenge modes. (like what Mega Man 9 and 10 do)

I don't see how limiting continues is equated with self imposed restrictions like using only a certain weapon in the game. As I said, the game doesn't make you use the continues. It's just as self imposed, IMO, to keep using continues. And regardless on your opinions of credit feeding in games with instant respawn continues, the instant respawn continues do hide the real challenge of the games. I wasn't saying not to use any continues at all, but playing through those instant respawn continue games all the way using tons of continues can suck the fun out of the game and can even give a mistaken impression of how the game really plays.

I played some of those extra modes in Mega Man 9 and 10 and I didn't find the extra modes to be ridiculous (the thing about them being DLC is another separate issue, though), just something extra on offer that is separate from the main game. Not to mention that the games seemed to have a decent challenge on their own. That's one thing that confuses me. Some of these games known to be hard aren't nearly as insane as they are claimed to be (and I don't consider myself to be very good at games), but now it seems that often letting the game show its real challenge and sometimes being challenged by a game is considered insane.

kool kitty89, what I get from your posts is that you're saying that things put in by the programmer to make a game easier are ok, but things put in by the programmer to make a game harder are self imposed and insane? That makes no sense to me.

[PHANTOM2040]

Jesus Christ, this turned into a Double Dragon thread.

[KnightWarrior]

Wow, this thread got derailed

[sheath]

That is what should happen when a good game gets blasted for false reasons.

[kool kitty89]

I played some of those extra modes in Mega Man 9 and 10 and I didn't find the extra modes to be ridiculous (the thing about them being DLC is another separate issue, though), just something extra on offer that is separate from the main game. Not to mention that the games seemed to have a decent challenge on their own. That's one thing that confuses me. Some of these games known to be hard aren't nearly as insane as they are claimed to be (and I don't consider myself to be very good at games), but now it seems that often letting the game show its real challenge and sometimes being challenged by a game is considered insane.

I meant things like completing MM9 without taking any damage.

[BrianC]

I meant things like completing MM9 without taking any damage.

oh yeah, some of those achievements are pretty insane.

I like the SMS quite a bit, myself. It didn't get much third party support, but it got plenty of sweet games. I like how it has some more obscure titles like Ghost House and Rescue Mission. Shooting Gallery is surprisingly good too. Not to mention the big names like Wonder Boy III and Phantasy Star. It even got some nice licensed titles like Asterix and Land of Illusion. I like how the JP SMS/Mark III can play SG-1000 games (though the colors are off). I like the SG-1000 Orguss, Monaco GP, and Zaxxon.