Screen capture testing and comparisons

[sheath]

I could do that with my amp/splitter, but the Ati AiW cards both would not work with Dscaler (for filter removal) and force you to use them as your only AGP/PCIe card. The Hauppage and Avermedia cards already have no lag, but some models screw up with certain systems.

[sheath]

Carried over from the 32X group:

Honestly, if you're giving a US perspective and relative to how we played these games BITD - I think you're probably gonna have to do two sets. At least for the games that benefited for composite output (I personally think almost all the softs look great in RGB with a little filtering and scanlines.. either real scanlines or 25% emulation scanlines). I mean, if it's just games - then filtering wouldn't be that big of a deal - right? If it's specific pixel/color detail, I'd learn towards something sharper than the native composite output. The only problem is; comparing it to another system. And guess that's what this whole off topic discussion is about (or loosely about). I guess it would come down to a specific games (EC for example is usually showed with some sort of more heavy filtering, from sites I've seen)?



You mean the moire effect from the capture taking the pics?

Can we get this cut and merged into that thread? I have something I wanted to share.

It's the wavy line effect, especially to the right of the fellow's screen in these shots:

Component

S-Video


I would consider either of these shots to have unnecessary artifacts because of the curved lines all over the pics.

On the RGB snaps versus capture card option. Do RGB monitors have interlacing, or am I mistaking that for scanlines? Either way, I consider either a filter to a greater degree than a single blur filter in photoshop, and both would go a long way to covering up any kind of dithering in game consoles.

[tomaitheous]

I was checking out some things today with my capture card. Might and Magic 3 for TGCD. It runs at 7.16mhz dot clock (equivalent to ~380 pixels if compared to 720 pixels edge to edge). My capture card appears to be applying a low pass filter to the composite signal. But not just that, the are some weird color artifacting on the color channel. This doesn't show up on my SD set or my HD set.

Matter of fact, my SD set shows a sharper image than my capture card (which is set to capture max 768 pixels in a scanline). My HD set is a CRT, but it's still a frame grabber setup. That is to say, it still captures a frame or so of pics, then applies whatever filters are need to it. It's incredibly clear and shows none of the artifacts that my capture card is showing (including the checker board pattern/artifact on colored areas of red and blue). The only way to get rid of these checkerboard artifacts on the capture card is to run Dscaler with 'old game' mode on. There doesn't seem to be anyway of turning off the filter on the card though :/

[tomaitheous]

On the RGB snaps versus capture card option. Do RGB monitors have interlacing, or am I mistaking that for scanlines? Either way, I consider either a filter to a greater degree than a single blur filter in photoshop, and both would go a long way to covering up any kind of dithering in game consoles.

Those are scanlines. Actually the term is wrong, it's the gap between the scanlines you are seeing. Because the display was original set to be an interlaced display, and instead of showing the next frame in the space inbetween the last scanline set, it shows it in the very same spot. Thus you get real 60p, but you get gaps between the scanlines. On a real RGB monitor, those gaps would actually be much wider. On SDTV sets, the beam is 'taller' so that the two field's scanlines overlap each other (making the interlacing less noticeable).

Also, the curve stuff you're seeing in those pics are just moire artifacts from taking pics of the screen and down sizing. It happens with taking pics of patterns and resizing them (or sometimes happens when the scaling is down internally of the camera digital side too, before compression and storage).

Here's a pic of my HD set: http://www.pcedev.net/pics/dither/pce/Photo0112.jpg

Composite video, no 'scanlines', PCE mid res mode. Note the picture quality of the HD set and that image are actually much sharper than that, but my camera phone sucks.

You see the moire effect in this shot, right?
http://www.pcedev.net/pics/dither/pce/Photo0091.jpg

[sheath]

Oh yeah, I see the moire, I'm just trying to let others define the term usage. I would expect that these moire effects are not visible to the naked eye on the actual sets. These would be artifacts created by the capture process. Other moire effects, like those caused by dithered transparency over Composite on an SD set, are something I would point out as "actual" artifacts.

What I would like to widdle things down to is only actual effects, or at least minimalize secondary artifacts to the point that nobody notices them.

[Guntz]

Here's a couple of poorly optimized screencaps from my ATi Radeon X700 Pro video card (my model has a VIVO function):

Super Mario Bros. 3 - Composite



Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap - RF





I'm sure if I used S-Video or shorter, thicker cable, I'd get better quality video out of this card, so please take the above images with a grain of salt.

[sheath]

Brought over (again) from the 32X group

Some screenshots here actually demonstrate that dot crawl rather well: http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/c...reenshots.html

This fellow's dotcrawl comparison is handy.

Emulation:


Static artifacts:


Scrolling artifacts (slowed down):


I also noticed that this fellow's RGB shots fail to match the colors of the emulated shots perfectly. So now we have at least four examples or RGB screen pictures looking significantly different than emulation does.

Here's a couple of poorly optimized screencaps from my ATi Radeon X700 Pro video card (my model has a VIVO function):

Super Mario Bros. 3 - Composite

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/9...o3testx700.jpg

Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap - RF

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/4...itest2x700.png

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5...iitestx700.jpg

I'm sure if I used S-Video or shorter, thicker cable, I'd get better quality video out of this card, so please take the above images with a grain of salt.

While I can see the RF noisiness pretty clearly, that card seems fairly decent. That X700 only has Video in, so you would need to use the sound line in for audio and it'll probably lose sync with video pretty easily. I really would still be using my AiW 7500 if I could put it in a PCI slot, that thing, blurring aside, could handle every game system.

[kgenthe]

I use an Elgato Video Capture device. I have a switch box for my old game systems. Composite to the Capture device and RF to the TV.

[sheath]

Hey! That's pretty nice looking. I can't get Composite out of my pre-Saturn Sega systems with my Avermedia card. Does that device let you play the game on your PC without lag?

[Guntz]

While I can see the RF noisiness pretty clearly, that card seems fairly decent. That X700 only has Video in, so you would need to use the sound line in for audio and it'll probably lose sync with video pretty easily.

While yes you're correct, but thankfully (at least with MP4 DivX) the desync isn't gradual. A bit of post processing can fix that desync no problem. I should try some more codecs and see if I can get rid of the desync from the source. I have been able to do this before using the same setup; capture card with separate audio card.

Here's a video of SMB3 on Composite. I fixed the desync too. Now if I could just remedy the stupid interlacing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1tsQjuKlNs

[sheath]

While yes you're correct, but thankfully (at least with MP4 DivX) the desync isn't gradual. A bit of post processing can fix that desync no problem. I should try some more codecs and see if I can get rid of the desync from the source. I have been able to do this before using the same setup; capture card with separate audio card.

Here's a video of SMB3 on Composite. I fixed the desync too. Now if I could just remedy the stupid interlacing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1tsQjuKlNs

That's good quality. I take it there isn't any lag from the controller to the capture display? Virtual Dub has a couple of free de-interlace filters that work as well as most things I've seen. Sometimes it results in disappearing interlaced effects (shadows, fast bullets) though. I tested my de-interlacing, when I needed to post process with the Ati AiW 2006 on Sonic games, if they lost sync or screwed up the image in any way I tried again. Also, any Contra game's bullets will disappear with bad de-interlacing.

[kgenthe]

Hey! That's pretty nice looking. I can't get Composite out of my pre-Saturn Sega systems with my Avermedia card. Does that device let you play the game on your PC without lag?

No, there is about half a second of lag which makes it unsuitable for that purpose.



Here is my current rig (systems get rotated every few months). The thing on top of the TV is a Pelican 5-way Game Selector. It has an R/F converter built in as well. I send the R/F to the TV for live-playing and use the composite outputs for recording on the Mac. Sadly, it doesn't convert S-video to R/F which is rather dumb. In the future when I have the funds, I'll get a powered a/v distributer so I can do more S-Video game play recording.

If you are looking for a way to play the Genesis with composite visuals on your PC, this device would not be optimal.

[sheath]

You're wrong though: a good RGB display (be it a high end TV or dedicated monitor) WILL LOOK virtually intentical to what emulators show with zero filtering.

Also, you're screenshots are far more blurry than what I've seen on decent TVs with model 1s.

At this point, I haven't seen an RGB shot look identical to emulation, so that is all I was saying. It seems to me that we have been discussion variants on how much even RGB monitors blur/obscure images.

My screenshots have been appropriately marked as older and filtered and newer non-filtered. See the Actraiser, Mystic Defender, and Jewel Master pages on gamepilgrimage. I'm not totally satisfied with them either, but they are at least sharp for Composite captures.

[kool kitty89]

Also, the curve stuff you're seeing in those pics are just moire artifacts from taking pics of the screen and down sizing. It happens with taking pics of patterns and resizing them (or sometimes happens when the scaling is down internally of the camera digital side too, before compression and storage).

Not just downscaling, but also from the native images in many cases... it depends on the resolution and antialiasing applied. (integer scaling usually avoids it too -and the need to re-antialias- so long as the original image lacks moire -ie even simple direct 50/25/20/10% scaling in paint)

Oh yeah, I see the moire, I'm just trying to let others define the term usage. I would expect that these moire effects are not visible to the naked eye on the actual sets. These would be artifacts created by the capture process. Other moire effects, like those caused by dithered transparency over Composite on an SD set, are something I would point out as "actual" artifacts.

What I would like to widdle things down to is only actual effects, or at least minimalize secondary artifacts to the point that nobody notices them.

They're created by digital photography... it's the samesort of thing you see in real life when lookign though a chain link fence or grating. (the pixels create the "grid" which artifacts with the native image -if appropriate antialiasing isn't applied, or super high resolution -and scaling an image will ruin AA if it's not re-applied or unless you scale only by integer values -1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, etc)

And yes, actual composite video artifacts, s-video chroma artifacts, or remaining signal noise/sync problems in S-video/component or RGB are "real artifacts.

One major problem with RGB/component seems to be a sync stability issue that causes vertical bars of light/dark shades every other pixel: but it seems to depend on the TV's tolerance and the console used. (buffering the sync signal may solve the problem)

That's separate from color calibration flaws or blurring/poor focus/poor bram precision/low phosphor dot pitch of the analog displays as well. (with a suitably high quality display and stable sync, the picture should look pretty much identical to an emulator screen shot -if the Emulator is accurate, though you may miss some things that the emulator doesn't take into account -like CRAM artifacts when mid-screen palette swaps are done)

Here's a couple of poorly optimized screencaps from my ATi Radeon X700 Pro video card (my model has a VIVO function):

Super Mario Bros. 3 - Composite



Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap - RF





I'm sure if I used S-Video or shorter, thicker cable, I'd get better quality video out of this card, so please take the above images with a grain of salt.

Interesting, I haven't seen dot crawl like that on the SMS before (I assumed the artifacts would be like the Genesis's when in low res -unless some SMS models didn't use the CXA1145).

Also interesting to see that the NES has rainbow chroma artifacts too even at the lower resolution (where the MD doesn't have them). I've never seen that on any of my NESs, maybe I should check again.

I also noticed that this fellow's RGB shots fail to match the colors of the emulated shots perfectly. So now we have at least four examples or RGB screen pictures looking significantly different than emulation does.

All of his shots are from the CRT screen of his monitor/TV rather than a capture card, so true color quality will vary (for a proper comparison, he should have output the emulators to the same TV or at least use the camera on the screen of his PC monitor -outputting emulation to the TV could show the color calibration issues of the TV by the shift in color compared to a good quality monitor with proper RGB levels).

Many TVs are calibrated wrong as stated before... and in one particular case, I couldn't get component to look right at all, but s-video and composite looked right. (When we tried component on the Genesis on Apolloboy's CRT SDTV, it always seemed a bit too greenish or off in some way no matter what I did to hue or color saturation -didn't go into the service menu though)

Even with real RGB monitors, the calibration may be off (aside from user alterations to RGB balance)... especially with age


Also note that for the NES, the color palette in RGB is totally different (assuming he's using the PPU from a Playchoice unit -the only way to get NES RGB AFIK), so that's a unique case. Emulation uses the native chroma/luma (I think it's YCbCr colorspace) directly converted to RGB. (15/16-bit highcolor usually)

[Guntz]

That's good quality. I take it there isn't any lag from the controller to the capture display?

Nope. None. I played that whole minute watching the little recording screen on my PC. Lucky me my NES controllers reach that far. SMS is a smidgen shorter...

Virtual Dub has a couple of free de-interlace filters that work as well as most things I've seen. Sometimes it results in disappearing interlaced effects (shadows, fast bullets) though. I tested my de-interlacing, when I needed to post process with the Ati AiW 2006 on Sonic games, if they lost sync or screwed up the image in any way I tried again. Also, any Contra game's bullets will disappear with bad de-interlacing.

Yeah, that's something I've noticed with de-interlacing. There is a significant difference between 'good' and 'awful' de-interlacing filters. Hopefully I can find something that doesn't mangle the video.

Concerning my Radeon card though, I must warn you in advance. As good as the card is, the software has given me by far, the most trouble I've ever had with software and drivers. First I had problems getting the game's video signal to be recognized, then I couldn't even get my preferred capture software to work properly, so I reluctantly went with ATi's. Then that program would start crashing whenever I tried to record video a few times, complaining that 'the software and hardware had a collision, please restart your computer to use hardware rendering again' or something similar to that.For some bizarre reason, that crashing problem went away after I swapped my mobo with a slightly different one (also faster CPU). ATi's software must have sorted itself out when Windows was reloading drivers.

In short, ATi makes nice graphics cards, but they couldn't program their way out of a paper bag. Anything they write is PURE, GARBAGE.

EDIT: Here's a composite screencap of Wonder Boy III:

Composite