The best sellling system of all time...

[gamevet]

No no, Nintendo would be a money leech if they were selling DS games for $40 and up. How I see it, Ninty is just taking advantage of an otherwise clueless userbase. If people want to overpay for 3+ year old DS games, so be it. There isn't a whole lot wrong with that, but then again lots of people seem to hate capitalism...

On the other hand, Sony has always tended to leave a bad taste in my mouth. I find them to be underhanded in all sorts of areas, not just one specific thing like pricing. Even their first party games kinda stink of generic-ness... Blech... But you know, generic-ness sorta fits with Sony's business model of selling practically anything with a circuit board inside it come to think of it.

Nintendo has been far more guilty of creating generic properties, even if it is their own titles. The new Super Mario Bros. doesn't do anything to improve the franchise and Metroid took a step back with Other M.

God of War, Little Big Planet, Uncharted and Wipeout are solid franchises. Compared to the crap Sega has been releasing for the last 10 years, Sony is golden.

[InternalPrimate]

Is Uncharted considered a first-party title? I've always considered Naughty Dog as somewhat outside though exclusive to the Sony brand (despite the 2001 acquisition). I'd consider Retro's Metroid Prime series and Bungie's Halo series first party titles though, so...

While I completely disagree that Nintendo's properties are "generic" (sounds like someone hasn't played much recently) I do completely agree that Sony has the best second-parties out there. Insomniac and Naughty Dog specifically.

Though Retro is on their level...

[ApolloBoy]

The new Super Mario Bros. doesn't do anything to improve the franchise

It's still pretty damn fun though. I honestly don't care what a game does for a franchise so long as it's fun to play.

[Olls]

The new Super Mario Bros. doesn't do anything to improve the franchise

What does it need to do in order to "improve the franchise", according to you?
You do know that NSMB is one of the best selling titles on both the DS and Wii?I'd say it succeeded.

[OldSchool]

Yeah. The most popular games on the DS never come down in price; that pisses me off. Conversely, some of the best DS games end up in the clearance rack within months, and that pisses me off, too.

And just to be clear, I wasn't trying to argue that PSP games weren't cheaper, since in the long-run they usually are. I was simply pointing out that Sony would charge more for their games if they could, as demonstrated by the no-brainer top-selling games. People can [rightly] blast Nintendo for being money-grubbing, but Sony is doing some pretty funny stuff in their attempts to break even...

Yeah, I hear your point, but why would I care when said practices don't affect me in the slightest? I'll never pay $40 for a handheld game.... and Nintendos $30 pricetag for the majority of their DS titles is why I'm cutting my 40 game DS wantlist in half or more.

Hell, I'm even thinking of getting all of my DS Carts used since they're carts afterall... should be able to save a lot that way.

[Guntz]

Nintendo has been far more guilty of creating generic properties, even if it is their own titles. The new Super Mario Bros. doesn't do anything to improve the franchise and Metroid took a step back with Other M.

I don't think you understood my initial post. I wasn't talking about gameplay mechanics (how can those even be generic? Common perhaps, but generic?), I was talking about intellectual properties. Mario is a very iconic IP, it has been very well accepted by the majority of game players for decades. Most of Sony's IPs, I cannot say the same about. Crash felt like a poor man's Sonic, just without the speed (so Crash is more like a Mario with attitude). Jak and Dakster also feels very souless and doesn't have anything to make it stand out among bad mascots.

Really the only two Sony IPs (well, one of them isn't really a Sony IP anymore) that I didn't find extremely annoying were Spyro and Ratchet & Clank. Spyro had decent characters and a good premise. R&C was quite humorous and never took itself very seriously, a good combination for easy adoption from consumers.

I know I'm arguing over a very shallow and opinionated subject, but there IS such a thing as quality differences in things like characters, plot, setting and such. Nintendo has always had creative people thinking up the world that game designers could put their mechanics inside. By far the best new IP Ninty has made as of late has been Pikmin. It's been a long time since I last found a game that immersed me so deeply in it's world. I love everything about Pikmin, every little detail has quality written all over it. If only I actually tried out Pikmin years before (I got a copy in 2009). For the longest I never knew it existed, despite being a heavy GC user for some time.

God of War, Little Big Planet, Uncharted and Wipeout are solid franchises. Compared to the crap Sega has been releasing for the last 10 years, Sony is golden.

Again, I was talking about IP quality, not gameplay.

[gamevet]

What does it need to do in order to "improve the franchise", according to you?
You do know that NSMB is one of the best selling titles on both the DS and Wii?I'd say it succeeded.

It needs to be innovative. There's nothing about the NSMB that hasn't been done before with the franchise. Super Mario 64, Super Mario Galaxy and and even Super Mario Sunshine brought new play mechanics and environments to explore.

If someone is going to call one company stale for its games, it isn't too hard to call out Nintendo, that has 10 rehashes for every Pikman or Mario Galaxy.

I don't think you understood my initial post. I wasn't talking about gameplay mechanics (how can those even be generic? Common perhaps, but generic?), I was talking about intellectual properties. Mario is a very iconic IP, it has been very well accepted by the majority of game players for decades. Most of Sony's IPs, I cannot say the same about. Crash felt like a poor man's Sonic, just without the speed (so Crash is more like a Mario with attitude). Jak and Dakster also feels very souless and doesn't have anything to make it stand out among bad mascots.

What about Sly Cooper?

Really the only two Sony IPs (well, one of them isn't really a Sony IP anymore) that I didn't find extremely annoying were Spyro and Ratchet & Clank. Spyro had decent characters and a good premise. R&C was quite humorous and never took itself very seriously, a good combination for easy adoption from consumers.

Mascot games aren't what they used to be. If anything, Kratos and Sackboy are the faces of Sony, not those games you've mentioned.

I know I'm arguing over a very shallow and opinionated subject, but there IS such a thing as quality differences in things like characters, plot, setting and such. Nintendo has always had creative people thinking up the world that game designers could put their mechanics inside. By far the best new IP Ninty has made as of late has been Pikmin. It's been a long time since I last found a game that immersed me so deeply in it's world. I love everything about Pikmin, every little detail has quality written all over it. If only I actually tried out Pikmin years before (I got a copy in 2009). For the longest I never knew it existed, despite being a heavy GC user for some time.



Again, I was talking about IP quality, not gameplay.

Pikman was so long ago, it was pretty much a launch title for the Gamecube. Yeah, Nintendo has several new franchises that are good, and they have reinvented several franchises like Metroid Prime and the upcoming Kirby's Yarn, but they are just as guilty as anyone for milking franchises far beyond the demand. Zelda may be the next franchise that people have had enough of.

[InternalPrimate]

It needs to be innovative. There's nothing about the NSMB that hasn't been done before with the franchise. Super Mario 64, Super Mario Galaxy and and even Super Mario Sunshine brought new play mechanics and environments to explore.

EXCEPT for the four player co-op, right? Kind of funny you'd forget a feature that was marketed as THE reason to buy NSMBWii in the first place. But you're right, four player co-op platform has been done soooooo many times before.

[Obviously]

But since Nintendo also makes other Mario games like Galaxy there's really nothing wrong with having a retro-throwback to compliment it. The NSMB games were never meant to move the series forward. Expecting that of it is as silly as expecting Mega Man 9 or Sonic 4 to be fresh and innovative.

We can have our cake and eat it too in the case of Mario. Not every game a company releases needs to press the envelope. It just needs to be good. I'm glad the NSMB games exist because I like the classic play style even if it doesn't really re-invent the wheel. They accomplish what they were meant to accomplish. It doesn't always work of course, just look at Sonic 4.

I also agree that calling out Sony for having stale games is equally dumb though for the same reasons and focusing on mascots in this day and age makes no sense. We've moved beyond that and everybody has strong franchises and rock solid IP that isn't mascot-ish now.

[kool kitty89]

It's still pretty damn fun though. I honestly don't care what a game does for a franchise so long as it's fun to play.

Yeah, though personally, I've been finding the new direction disappointing.
Super Paper Mario, Galaxy, Galaxy 2 (a bit better, but I still can't really get into it), NSMB Wii/DS (I can't say for sure as I haven't spent much time with either -DS is supposed to be more fun- but it doesn't really appeal that much to me either... the 4p mode sounded good but the final implementation seems like it may be too awkward to be worth it), etc. (the SSB games are awesome, and Mario Kart, but those are more spin offs... and in some aspects, MK peaked in 64 -even a few elements done best in the original or GBA versions -one issue with the later games is a general lack of strategy/skill and increasing amount of dumb luck)

I liked most of the previous 3D games (especially 64 and Sunshine and some of the RPGs -especially SMRPG, Paper Mario, and Thousand Year Door -Super Saga and Partners in Time seem decent too, but my brother played more of those and I'm not that into handheld gaming), but I was never really into the 2D platformers save Yoshi's Island in spite of growing up with only Nintendo consoles (more or less). I played them (owned several, borrowed others -2/3/allstars), but like with a few other games I didn't find them all that playable... that is to say I didn't get that much better with practice and eventually I stopped trying to get further in them and had more fun playing other games or watching others play through it. (I grew up doing that a fair bit and I do enjoy "back seat gaming", so to speak, at times -especially when I know I'm no good at the game and/or if I can actually contribute -like for some adventure/puzzle games -used to do that with my dad with some Graphic adventure games and even a couple survival horror games -especially the puzzles in Silent Hill 2)

Oddly enough, I enjoy the 2D sonic games more than Mario contemporaries on average, though like Mario stuff, I tend to prefer the 3D games there too. (at least the better 3D games, like the Adventure 1 and 2)


Anyway, there's nothing wrong with pushing a franchise as such, especially if it gets strong sales and good reviews/PR... hell that's something Sega really screwed up with in the Saturn years (for the US market at least).
Catering to the masses and doing what costs the least and makes the most is good business... if innovation is part of that, all the better. (albeit there's ALWAYS some degree of technological capability needed, but it's just one factor, and marketing along with fundamental market appeal can matter than "good" gameplay from "hardcore/serious/real" critics/gamers/fans)

A game doesn't have to be revolutionary or incredibly well made to be a decent or "good" game... and in terms of good business sense and profitability, it's critical to cater to what will sell (and do the best job possible at predicting that -and latching on once you've fond something that works). Not just from a gameplay/design aspect, but stylistically, marketing wise, gimmicks, etc. (and getting that to work in multiple regions with different popular trends)

[Olls]

It needs to be innovative. There's nothing about the NSMB that hasn't been done before with the franchise.

Aside from the aforementioned 4p mode, and the fact that the game is called New Super Mario Bros., basically making it a throwback to the classic Mario games (Super Mario Bros.), you are completely right.

However, we all know what happened to Sega and their "innovation" when it comes to Sonic titles.

[Olls]

-snip- double post.

[Hiarcs]

The whole GameBoy flavors combined.

[gamevet]

EXCEPT for the four player co-op, right? Kind of funny you'd forget a feature that was marketed as THE reason to buy NSMBWii in the first place. But you're right, four player co-op platform has been done soooooo many times before.

4 players sharing a game of Mario doesn't sound all that exciting.

The Wii is the first Nintendo console I haven't bought and with good reason. I'm seeing way to many titles that scream, been there, done that. I might have been more excited about the platform, if they had released the promised Pilot Wings update; a game that does something different from the everyday norm. I'm just seeing too many Super Smash Bros., Mario Karts and Punchouts, and not enough innovative properties like Pikman and Pilot Wings.

[Phosis]

4 players sharing a game of Mario doesn't sound all that exciting.

The Wii is the first Nintendo console I haven't bought and with good reason. I'm seeing way to many titles that scream, been there, done that. I might have been more excited about the platform, if they had released the promised Pilot Wings update; a game that does something different from the everyday norm. I'm just seeing too many Super Smash Bros., Mario Karts and Punchouts, and not enough innovative properties like Pikman and Pilot Wings.

I own a Wii, Playstation 3, and DS as my three main "current" consoles.

I could do away with the Wii if need be.

And it isn't that there are not great games for the Wii; some of my favorites are the new Donkey Kong, Mario Galaxy 2, Chocobos Dungeon, Castle of Shikigami, etc...its just that I have so much fun elsewhere with my other games and consoles, that the Wii is almost unnecessary.

I think the DS, personally, is the best console I own. I fucking love that thing.