Knuckles vs. Knuckles

[TheFace]

I've googled this but never found a useful response.

Why is Knuckle's little musical motif different in S&K vs. in S3?

Depending on the answer, why then is one theme used throughout S3&K instead of the theme matching the game the levels came from?

[Obviously]

I don't know either. The same goes for the Super Sonic music and the boss fights.

[NeoVamp]

Might be related to the whole Michael Jackson working with Sega on this one,
doesn't the PC version of S&K use completely different music?

so something weird was going on over at Sega, must be rights related or something.

[Guntz]

I know one thing though, most of those music tracks sound far better in S&K than in S3.

[TheFace]

I did wonder about the Michael Jackson thing. I don't possibly see why that should effect the "locked-on" version of the game (S3&K that is).

[djshok]

I'd guess it's because they were marketing S&K as a separate game. So they had to change the music at least to make it look like they put enough effort into the new game instead of just rehashing tunes from the previous game.

[Obviously]

The Sonic 3 boss music has a lot of Michael Jackson sounding samples...

But I doubt that's the reason, and I thought it's never really been 100% conclusively proven that Michael Jackson actually worked on the music for Sonic 3.

I think the simple explanation is Sonic and Knuckles just had different music because every Sonic game has different music like djshok said, and with the lock-on they just wanted to standardize those songs since it's all one big game when connected.

[Vyse of Arcadia]

I'd guess it's because they were marketing S&K as a separate game. So they had to change the music at least to make it look like they put enough effort into the new game instead of just rehashing tunes from the previous game.

That's always been my assumption.

[TheFace]

See, I buy that and it certainly makes sense. But then why not use the sound that belongs to each game when you're playing them locked together rather than "overwrite" a few of them with the Sonic and Knuckles version? Knuckles' theme, the mini-boss theme, etc...

[lumclaw]

Isn't that because S&K doesn't even contain any Sonic 3 specific tracks in its data at all?

[Mr Smith]

I'm with djshok and Vyse of this issue.

[Tiddles]

One other little music difference that hasn't been pointed out here, and I didn't notice myself for many years: the continue/race results music has been slowed down quite a lot between Sonic 3 and S&K.

I think the simple explanation is Sonic and Knuckles just had different music because every Sonic game has different music like djshok said, and with the lock-on they just wanted to standardize those songs since it's all one big game when connected.

It's a credible suggestion and I think there's truth in it, but I'm not sure it adds up completely, on its own - Sonic 1 and 2 used extremely similar title, 1up and invincibility music, but suddenly they need to change between 3 and Knuckles, which are otherwise much closer in style? Meanwhile, the act 2 boss theme, which previously differed every new game, is retained for S&K.

Also, looking at the 3C and S&K beta releases, there are two unfinished credits tracks, both ending with the Sonic 3 title sting rather than the new Sonic & Knuckles one. That might suggest that the Sonic 3 sting was intended to be kept at some point, since it was worked into that music. Or it could've just been a placeholder. Not conclusive at all, but interesting.

It's tempting to suggest technical reasons for the Knuckles and miniboss tracks specifically: Sonic 3 has a much larger library of DAC samples than Sonic & Knuckles, and they take up quite a bit of space - if you wanted to put all the missing ones directly onto the S&K cartridge, you'd need to delete something else. Now, luckily for S&K, very few existing tracks actually used anything beyond the first set of samples that were retained, and they all belong to Sonic 3 exclusive levels (Carnival Night through Launch Base) or features (Competition mode) except for two: the Knuckles and miniboss themes. I don't know how much of that extended library they really use, though - it might or might not have been possible to just move the particular required samples over if they wanted to. That was already done for the clap sound effect in Knuckles' S&K theme, although it uses different sample data and sounds noticably different from the Sonic 3 equivalent (which, one might argue, could also suggest a rights-related issue).

As far as I know, nobody actually knows for sure (other than the people who changed it to begin with!)

As for why the same tracks are used throughout the Sonic 3 section when both are attached, there is a straightforward technical reason for that. The entirety of Sonic 3 & Knuckles runs from the Sonic & Knuckles cartridge. It treats Sonic 3 as a big data disk and reads from it when required to support levels, features and music that only exist in Sonic 3 - but nearly all of the actual program code is taken from the Sonic & Knuckles side, including Sonic 3-only features like the save screen, and most of the level event and object code for Sonic 3 levels. That also includes the sound driver, which uses the same music identifiers $01-$32 as in Sonic 3, but points at data in Sonic & Knuckles for music that must be available for S&K alone without Sonic 3 attached. That of course includes the title, 1up, invincibility, Knuckles and miniboss music ($25, $2A, $2C, $1F, $2E) so these always refer to the S&K versions of those tracks when called in the game.

It would be possible to have rewritten the sound driver so that there are additional music identifiers referencing the Sonic 3 versions of all this music, and then changed the code for Sonic 3-related events to refer to these instead. But that would've had to be a deliberate alteration to the programming - doing it this way is much simpler. So it's not that anything is being "overwritten" deliberately, it would actually be more work to maintain the original game's music.

[kool kitty89]

The Sonic 3 boss music has a lot of Michael Jackson sounding samples...

But I doubt that's the reason, and I thought it's never really been 100% conclusively proven that Michael Jackson actually worked on the music for Sonic 3.

I think the simple explanation is Sonic and Knuckles just had different music because every Sonic game has different music like djshok said, and with the lock-on they just wanted to standardize those songs since it's all one big game when connected.

Just the miniboss music, the main bosses used the same music in both (sans the added music for the final boss battles).

I like S&K's Knuckles theme a lot more... S3's is boring. I like the S&K miniboss music more too, but S3's is still pretty neat (much more interesting/lively than Knuckles' theme).

They did keep all the level music the same unlike the PC version. (so it probably wasn't a licensing/legal issue as the PC version is hypothesized to be -some claim it was due to the limitations of the Midi format, but that seems like BS to me as they arranged plenty of other stuff to conform to the midi format... anyway some of those added tracks were neat too, like Carnival Night Act 2 though not so much for Snow Cap).

The coolest music that's missing from S&K/3K is the end credits music. Sonic 3's end credits were a break from the norm in general with the lack of level music or montage ending screenshots but rather a formal black screen credits roll. (albeit Sonic CD also broke from the norm with the FMV, but that's a bit different)

[Orchid87]

I just remembered about all that MJ in Sonic 3 mystery. I really believe that Sega decided to cut the ties with him after that charges and I feel kinda sorry for him.

Also listening to Sonic 3 credits theme and Stranger in Moscow side by side still gives me some chills.

[kool kitty89]

They did keep all the level music the same unlike the PC version. (so it probably wasn't a licensing/legal issue as the PC version is hypothesized to be -some claim it was due to the limitations of the Midi format, but that seems like BS to me as they arranged plenty of other stuff to conform to the midi format... anyway some of those added tracks were neat too, like Carnival Night Act 2 though not so much for Snow Cap).

Expanding on this, there's these fanmade remixes using midi showing just how possible General Midi renditions are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-hESjBxH2s

(Carnival Night Zone, Ice Cap Zone, Launch Base Zone, Knuckles' theme, and the credits music)

I just remembered about all that MJ in Sonic 3 mystery. I really believe that Sega decided to cut the ties with him after that charges and I feel kinda sorry for him.

Also listening to Sonic 3 credits theme and Stranger in Moscow side by side still gives me some chills.

Yeah, but that's not the reason the songs were changed in S3&K... several of the (apparently) MJ made tracks are still there. (Ice Cap and Carnival Night) Unlike the PC version... which also changed all the music in sonic 3 as well to the same as 3&K. (for the S&K collection which includes 3/3&K/S&K)