Knuckles vs. Knuckles

[Vyse of Arcadia]

They did keep all the level music the same unlike the PC version. (so it probably wasn't a licensing/legal issue as the PC version is hypothesized to be -some claim it was due to the limitations of the Midi format, but that seems like BS to me as they arranged plenty of other stuff to conform to the midi format... anyway some of those added tracks were neat too, like Carnival Night Act 2 though not so much for Snow Cap).

From what I remember of the PC version, all of the music were MIDI arrangements of the Genesis music, with the exception of tracks that made heavy use of PCM samples. My reasoning was that it was just too difficult to synthesize "Go! Go! Go go go!" with MIDI.

[kool kitty89]

From what I remember of the PC version, all of the music were MIDI arrangements of the Genesis music, with the exception of tracks that made heavy use of PCM samples. My reasoning was that it was just too difficult to synthesize "Go! Go! Go go go!" with MIDI.

That's BS though... all the music used heavy PCM samples, but some used more custom sampels than others... in any case it shouldn't have been hard to supplement those or omit them entirely... and those fanmade MIDI examples show that clearly. (except Carnival Night which is out of tune... though that's once case where there's pretty much no use of the custom/voice sample stuff at all -just percussion samples)

Most of the tracks sound fine without the non midi freindly samples (especially as they were mostly pretty quiet and subtle anyway) though those fan arrangements are still missing things in some cases that should be there, though they are remixes more than arrangements in some of the cases anyway.

Sonic 3's Knuckles theme can be done well with no custom samples at all... the NES remix used the noise channel to do it ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taYswNtsX7E though the miniboss music would be another story. (could remix it but tougher to directly arrange it)


In any case they went out of their way to write totally new and unique songs for 3 of Sonic 3/Knuckles levels in the PC version. Not remixes, totally new an unique tracks. (which some prefer.... eapecially those who find Carnival Night's music annoying)

[Vyse of Arcadia]

That's BS though... all the music used heavy PCM samples, but some used more custom sampels than others... in any case it shouldn't have been hard to supplement those or omit them entirely... and those fanmade MIDI examples show that clearly. (except Carnival Night which is out of tune... though that's once case where there's pretty much no use of the custom/voice sample stuff at all -just percussion samples)

Most of the tracks sound fine without the non midi freindly samples (especially as they were mostly pretty quiet and subtle anyway) though those fan arrangements are still missing things in some cases that should be there, though they are remixes more than arrangements in some of the cases anyway.

Sonic 3's Knuckles theme can be done well with no custom samples at all... the NES remix used the noise channel to do it ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taYswNtsX7E though the miniboss music would be another story. (could remix it but tougher to directly arrange it)


In any case they went out of their way to write totally new and unique songs for 3 of Sonic 3/Knuckles levels in the PC version. Not remixes, totally new an unique tracks. (which some prefer.... eapecially those who find Carnival Night's music annoying)

It's just a conjecture, but I haven't found a better explanation as to why those tracks, and only those tracks, were replaced. Besides, some PCM samples are much easier to fake with MIDI than others, vocal samples in particular.

Maybe it never occurred to them to just leave the samples out or work around them?

[kool kitty89]

It's just a conjecture, but I haven't found a better explanation as to why those tracks, and only those tracks, were replaced. Besides, some PCM samples are much easier to fake with MIDI than others, vocal samples in particular.

Maybe it never occurred to them to just leave the samples out or work around them?

The other explanation is the supposed legal issues due to Michal Jackson's relation to those specific tracks.

Or more generally, regardless of MJ relation, those specific tracks may have been contracted by a specific composer who retained some rights/royalties to them but not other tracks in the game and for whatever reason there was some kind of conflict that led to them being removed from the PC game.

That's more or less what happened with the title music and some other themes from Sonic 1 and 2 that likewise had to be totally replaced in Sonic 3. (I'm personally glad they were forced to do that as it made for more varied music, more so with them changing again in S&K -not legal issues in that case, just added music, though only a few themes were changed -title theme and the remix of that for invincibility/hyper/super, Knuckles' theme, and the mini bosses -opposed to Sonic 3 which totally replaced the title/super/invincible music, extra life, continue, game over, etc music)

[Tiddles]

Alternatively, it may be that if MJ's team or some other outsourced composers worked on the tracks that would eventually be replaced, Sega may not have had those compositions in a suitable source format to perform straightforward MIDI conversion, and chose to use new in-house compositions rather than trying to mimic the originals. The S3K remix OST they put out was clearly based on something much closer to the MIDI tracks than the MD sound, which might also suggest that. (Or it might suggest that they just liked that sound better.)

There's an oddity regarding the Sonic 3 credits music. I previously mentioned that all the major tracks that sound different in the games are redefined over the same ID in the sound test. That isn't true of the credits - calling $26 in S3K will still play the old credits music, while the new music has a new entry $DC assigned to it, which isn't used in Sonic 3. Even more interesting is that this wasn't always the case - if you go back to the 0517 beta release, the new credits music (albeit in a different form at that time) WAS assigned over the top of $26. That suggests to me that there was some intention of using the original credits music somewhere at some point, but it didn't end up happening.

[zetastrike]

Had to post this

[kool kitty89]

Alternatively, it may be that if MJ's team or some other outsourced composers worked on the tracks that would eventually be replaced, Sega may not have had those compositions in a suitable source format to perform straightforward MIDI conversion, and chose to use new in-house compositions rather than trying to mimic the originals. The S3K remix OST they put out was clearly based on something much closer to the MIDI tracks than the MD sound, which might also suggest that. (Or it might suggest that they just liked that sound better.)

I'd think that all the music would be in a format not easily converted to MIDI at all, and were totally re-arranged for General MIDI as such (catering to the General MIDI instruments).
In many cases, totally different instrument types were used in general. (not only that, but the "FM synthesis" option, not only used FM lead instrument samples, but FM percussion samples -all high-end 6-op sounding FM stuff- which were nothing like the MD game at all -in most cases the non FM option sounds better)

I wouldn't be surprised if the music conversion was outsourced anyway, the game conversion was iirc. (as I recall, Steve Snake did the emulation software for it -unlike Sonic CD, it was emulated and not ported, hence the higher system requirements than CD- and he wasn't working at Sega AFIK)

In any case, what you're saying is that it would have been easier to write entirely new and original tracks than to get a midi savvy musician to arrange the stuff by listening to the MD music? I find that much harder to believe than legal restrictions due to outsourcing some of the original tracks. (about as hard to believe as the PCM sample conflict claim though) Hell, I'd find it more plausible that Sega decided certain tracks didn't sound like they wanted, so they replaced them.

[Foxysen]

Looking at the title, I though that this thread is about why "actor"-Knuckles uses lighter colors than playble Knuckles.

[kool kitty89]

Looking at the title, I though that this thread is about why "actor"-Knuckles uses lighter colors than playble Knuckles.

Not lighter, but redder, and it is odd. One's almost pure red and the others closer to a dark magenta. (I tend to tweak the hue on the TV to make it closer to red anyway )

[Xeniczone]

I have the PC version of the game, and just to let you guys know, I'm pretty sure that all the background music is prerecorded. You can actually find the audio (.wav) files on the CD.

[Obviously]

I've been playing Sonic and Knuckles since I was eight years old and I never noticed the Knuckles color difference.

Man I feel foolish.

Foolish and confused.

[kool kitty89]

I have the PC version of the game, and just to let you guys know, I'm pretty sure that all the background music is prerecorded. You can actually find the audio (.wav) files on the CD.

Nope, it's all MIDI (thus it sounds different with different midi cards/PCs and has 2 different arrangements -"FM" or "General Midi" though both are General MIDI music), though I think there are some digital bonus tracks. I don't have a hard copy of the game to compare, only the old demo. (I think I had the game at some point but it's gone)
Note Silpheed did the same thing with some CD-DA bonus tracks that aren't used in-game. (everything is synth or lower quality mono 8-bit PCM -the latter only in cutscenes)


Sonic CD is all recoded though, including the past tracks. (I think those may be WAV rather than CD-DA given they can't be played on a CD player)

[Ecco]

Looking at the title, I though that this thread is about why "actor"-Knuckles uses lighter colors than playble Knuckles.

Not lighter, but redder, and it is odd. One's almost pure red and the others closer to a dark magenta. (I tend to tweak the hue on the TV to make it closer to red anyway )

Wow never realized that! Though Sonic 2 was always more my cup of tea.

If playable Knuckles is that deeper red color, then I feel better about "actor" Knuckles being PINK. That always annoyed me, especially that the character himself is supposed to be red, not pink. I also tried adjusting TINT on my flatscreen to take the pink out of actor Knuckles, but once he looks red, everything else looks purpley & inaccurate.

[TidalTempest]

The mini-boss music from Sonic 3 was actually meant to be the music used in the fight between Sonic and Knuckles in Hidden Palace and Sonic 3's mini-boss music was meant to be the same as the mini-boss music from Sonic & Knuckles. I don't know why they changed it though.

With the Hydrocity mini-boss, if you activate the drowning music, and then get some air, the S&K mini-boss music activates anyway.

I have no idea about why the music for Carnival Night, Icecap, Launch Base, the title theme and credits music was changed for the PC version though. I'd previously prescribed to the "unable to produce the music well with MIDI" theory, but those songs posted above, at least prove it was possible to somewhat replicate the original music with MIDI.

With the change of the title music between S3 & S&K, maybe Sega wanted to present S&K as a new game instead of part 2 of S3, which it obviously is.

[Orchid87]

The mini-boss music from Sonic 3 was actually meant to be the music used in the fight between Sonic and Knuckles in Hidden Palace and Sonic 3's mini-boss music was meant to be the same as the mini-boss music from Sonic & Knuckles.

Yes, Sonic 3 mini-boss music kinda fits Knuckles character. Also S&K mini-boss music is so epic! One of the better Sonic tunes ever.