Best AV possible on various systems?

[wargod]

Looking at 8-bit and up systems within the USA, I was wondering if there is a list/chart somewhere that has all the systems and the highest video capable that is available from both factory available hook ups and upon modification, while at the same time taking into account the display being used. Anything out there? The basic senarios that come to mind are:

1. Unmodded console using HD TV
2. Modded console using HD TV
3. Unmodded console using standalone converter box on HD TV
4. Unmodded console using CRT
5. Modded console using CRT

For example, the best picture for a non modded NES on a CRT or HD tv is the use of the video/audio cables rather than RF. (obvious, but should be noted) Modding the NES for true RGB though the use of a chip out of a playchoice 10 arcade board gives the best picture on a HD set.

To my knowledge, the best picture for a Genesis can had by the S-video mod for use on a CRT. Unmodded, it would be the composite cable over the RF when using a CRT. For display on an HD set, I imagine that a stand alone converter box to RGB would be used. I realize most of this is self explanatory, but if such a list is available it would be a good thing to have on hand. I for one never new that a true RGB mod was possible on a 3DO until a few years ago. A compiled list of the best possible AUDIO in addition to the video would be even better, as would a full listing of all systems, not just ones marketed with NSTC standard. Someone that has a Dreamcast may not know that they can get a better picture using VGA. Not everyone with a early model gamecube knows that there's a component cable for it, or that a Genesis can be modded for crystal clear audio. I know that we have many members on this board that have done various mods to their systems, so I figured this would be a good place to ask this question because I'm very interested in displaying and listening to my systems using the best possible option available, upon modification or not. For the newer systems, it's a no brainer but I would like to know if modification is required or if factory hookups will suffice for the older systems.

Basic listing of North American Consoles

3DO
Atari Jaguar
Microsoft Xbox
Microsoft Xbox 360
NEC TurboGrafx-16
NEC TurboGrafx-CD
Nintendo 64
Nintendo GameCube
Nintendo NES
Nintendo SNES
Nintendo Wii
Philips CD-i
Samsung NUON
Sega CD
Sega Dreamcast
Sega Genesis
Sega Genesis 32X
Sega Master System
Sega Saturn
SNK Neo Geo AES
SNK Neo Geo CD
Sony PlayStation
Sony PlayStation 2
Sony PlayStation 3

[Guntz]

Virtually every system on that list can use RGB (or Component/HDMI if it's a recent system), except the N64 and NES.

As for a more North American friendly video connection, most systems on that list can use S-Video. However, a fair few are stuck with Composite, like the Genesis, Neo Geo AES, 32X and Master System. And better yet, a few can only use RF when unmodded, like the Turbo Grafx-16 (what were they thinking!?).

[wargod]

Virtually every system on that list can use RGB (or Component/HDMI if it's a recent system), except the N64 and NES.

As for a more North American friendly video connection, most systems on that list can use S-Video. However, a fair few are stuck with Composite, like the Genesis, Neo Geo AES, 32X and Master System. And better yet, a few can only use RF when unmodded, like the Turbo Grafx-16 (what were they thinking!?).

Only RF when unmodded....that's just horrible lol! I would like to do the following:

http://www.gamesx.com/rgbadd/rgbn64.htm
http://www.gamesx.com/rgbadd/rgbturbo.htm

So many desired mods, so little time.

[Guntz]

I thought you were only asking about unmodded AV options, which are fairly limited. If you wanted to include mods too, every system on that list can use virtually any type of common connection you want. All you'd need to do is mod the system for RGB output, then find a nice transcoder that can turn that RGB signal into S-Video, Component or HDMI. The quality of said transcoder varies widely, so expect to pay a large sum of cash for something good.

[wargod]

Nice! I'll have to look into some high end transcoder options. Any recommendations?

[TrekkiesUnite118]

For the TurboGrafx16 there is the Turbo Booster Accessory that gives Composite AV if I remember correctly. I think there was also a version made for the Japanese PC-Engine.

[kool kitty89]

I thought you were only asking about unmodded AV options, which are fairly limited. If you wanted to include mods too, every system on that list can use virtually any type of common connection you want. All you'd need to do is mod the system for RGB output, then find a nice transcoder that can turn that RGB signal into S-Video, Component or HDMI. The quality of said transcoder varies widely, so expect to pay a large sum of cash for something good.

No, that's not really right: you don't need to mod for RGB: all models (except the Genesis 3) have native RGB right on the AV port, so all you need is a SCART cable and a RGB to YUV box.

S-Video can be modded much more cheaply than the cost of a $40+ component video adapter. All model 1s, all model 3, and many model 2s can be internally modded for s-video. The model 2 systems with the Samsung KA2196D encoders cant be modded as such and thus have RGB as the only option. (or an internal encoder replacement/addition)

The model 1s and 2s with MB3514s (mainly PAL systems) and late model 2s/3s with CXA1645 encoders only need a couple resistors (supposed to use couplign caps too, but most TVs don't seem to need those) to be added for S-video (plus an s-video mini-DIN socket).

The model 1s and model 2s with CXA1145 encoders (pretty much all NTSC model 1s and many earlier model 2s -only the CXA1145 and KA2195D were used on earlier model 2s) require a bit more work due to the need of a simple transistor amp for luma (a transistor and a resistor, not sure if the capacitor sometimes suggested is necessary or not) and for best color you should also use a 100-220 uF capacitor on chroma. (I think it will work with nothing on chroma, but it wont look as good -some suggest a resistor on chroma after the cap, but that's arguable and some reports show excessive bleeding is that's used)





As for HD vs SD:
it depends, the common "SD CRT is better than HD" for SD gaming is generally accurate, but you could easilyfind exceptions to that: a lot of HDTVs have good SD support (totally inconsistent in terms of high-end vs low-end sets, almost random though it seems that some lower-end/mid-range sets tend to have better SD support and more flexible filter options -that definitely seems to be the case with our lower-end Sanyo 720p LCD set). In the best cases, LCDs can have excellent composite/s-video/component support with no noticeable lag or funky deinterlacing/antialising artifacts. Some older LCD sets designed solely for SDTV are generally good in that respect, some HD sets are equal but it's hard to know without testing it out. (I think Phillips is pretty good about it, maybe Toshiba, maybe some Samsung stuff -not sure-, Sony seems a bit inconsistent but maybe OK for some, and Sanyo seems like it's good for some sets but I've not compared that many)
It seems like 1080p native sets might have more issues on average than 720 sets, but that might be coincidence.

I'm not positive, but the inclusion of an S-video port can sometimes be a good sign for SDTV support on an HD set. (many sets with token SD support will only have composite tossed in there and may not work properly at SD resolutions when using component -especially for 240p which several PS2 games use and a few compilations on the GC)




I'm also not sure if HD CRTs tend to have better SD support, but few to none have native SD support (all scale/deinterlace to 480p).

One other problem with HD sets even with some ones with better SD support is that SD modes are sometimes forced to 720x240/720x480 rather than interpolating the horizontal resolution based on the analog dot clock. (ie reading the dot clock to find the native resolution and then interpolating that to the native resolution of the TV rather than quantizing it to 720 dots and then scaling to the native horizontal res of the TV, or short of that, at least blindly quantizing and possibly interpolating/filtering the analog scanline to the max native horizontal resolution of the TV -ie 1280/1365/1920 or if clipped to 4:3 it would be 960/1024/1365)
That doesn't seem to be an issue on the best cases of HD sets though, and with many that do do it it's obvious as it will display the resolution selected as "720x240p" or 720x480i.


With good SD support on the actual display side, the only other factors are normal analog filtering/decoding issues like having good comb filters, luma trap, chroma trap, and sharpness options. (which vary on HD sets as they do ST, though I think most HD sets are better than older/cheaper SDTVs) Another nice feature with some sets is flexible automatic overscan control with options to auto-zoom to the exact edge of the scan (detected by black or sometimes other solid colors) while maintaining aspect ratio but also modes to show full normal overscan (ie the full 240/480 lines or slightly more rather than clipped to 224 lines as most CRTs are by default -many CRTs can be manually recalibrated in the service menu or internal potentiometers)




One foolproof option to bypass crap SD support on HDTVs is to get an external RGB to HDMI adapter. (but then you'd need other adapters for systems with composite or s-video)
Honestly, I'd try to focus on getting the HDTV right in the first place by testing it out before buying.

[Guntz]

No, that's not really right: you don't need to mod for RGB: all models (except the Genesis 3) have native RGB right on the AV port, so all you need is a SCART cable and a RGB to YUV box.

Sorry, I suppose I shouldn't have generalized, but this thread wasn't about just the Genesis, it was about a whole slew of systems. A decent number require you to go out of your way to harness RGB. For the consoles with instant RGB connection, just find the cable and go straight to the transcoder part.

Right now I'm trying to find that site that Old School linked to. I suppose it's easier to just say 'get an XRGB-3 and be done with it', but there's all sorts of different options. It's better to see what all the options are before spending hundreds of dollars on something that may not even work for your setup.

[j_factor]

Virtually every system on that list can use RGB (or Component/HDMI if it's a recent system), except the N64 and NES.

N64 can't do RGB? What?

What happens if you hook an SNES RGB SCART cable to it? Nothing?

[TrekkiesUnite118]

N64 can't do RGB? What?

What happens if you hook an SNES RGB SCART cable to it? Nothing?

It depends. Some early models can do RGB if I remember correctly. All others need to be modded. Just like the SNES Model 2.

[ApolloBoy]

It depends. Some early models can do RGB if I remember correctly. All others need to be modded. Just like the SNES Model 2.

Early N64s have RGB but need to be modded to output it. The video encoder on those systems outputs RGB, but the RGB lines need to be wired and amplified to the AV port, which is a similar situation with the SNES mini. Later N64s (including all the transparent colored systems) use a different video encoder which lacks RGB and can't be modded for it.

[Guntz]

It depends. Some early models can do RGB if I remember correctly. All others need to be modded. Just like the SNES Model 2.

Funny, I remember hearing that no N64 revision can output RGB without modding. Even worse, only some can even be modded to begin with.

But to address J_factor, he pulled my post out of context. The N64 cannot output RGB without modifications.

[kool kitty89]

Funny, I remember hearing that no N64 revision can output RGB without modding. Even worse, only some can even be modded to begin with.

But to address J_factor, he pulled my post out of context. The N64 cannot output RGB without modifications.

Some French models can, but I think that's about it. (makes sense too, since RGB/SCART had been mandated on every single TV sold in France from 1981 onward -the SCART standard being established a few years prior to that)
That's also why the French SMS II uses RGB only rather than RF only. (not sure what the French NES2 did -if it was released there- or the SNES2 for that matter -SNES2 might be RGB only, NES2 would only be able to do composite via SCART -composite and RGB were both mandated parts of the standard, S-video was added later)

It was somewhat like that in some other parts of mainland Europe (but none as strong as France -which created SCART), but the UK was the opposite: hanging onto RF only TVs on the mass market in high volumes significantly longer than in the US and also opting for RCA A/V inputs and mini-DIN s-video ports like the US but also offering SCART on some higher end sets. (unlike most other parts of Europe which went Scart+RF only)
I don't hink the UK ever went for RCA Y'PbPr component video though. (just stuck with SCART and added HDMI and VGA for HD stuff -and never extended SCART for HD use even though it's perfectly capable -arguably better than analog component; the only difference from VGA is composite sync vs separate H/V sync, just like Amiga monitors -though many VGA monitors also accept C-Sync, but not Sync On green -SoG is much less common and more limited to multimedia monitors)

[lumclaw]

Huh? I'd like to hear more about that. I thought SNES 2 was not only never released in Europe, but had no PAL model issued at all?

[retrospiel]

Practically all of these output RGB natively. All you need is 1x transcoder and a European SCART cable for each console.



The best options for each system on your list, no modding required:

[3DO]
[Atari Jaguar]
Microsoft Xbox: Y'PbPr Component, RGB-SCART
Microsoft Xbox 360: HDMI, VGA, Y'PbPr Component
[NEC TurboGrafx-16]
[NEC TurboGrafx-CD]
Nintendo 64: S-Video (compatible to SNES/GC AV cables)
Nintendo GameCube: Y'PbPr Component, RGB-SCART (EU only)
Nintendo NES: Composite Video (AV)
Nintendo SNES: RGB-SCART (NTSC SNES requires GameCube SCART cables)
Nintendo Wii: VGA, Y'PbPr Component, RGB-SCART (EU only)
[Philips CD-i]
[Samsung NUON]
Sega CD (no video out)
Sega Dreamcast: VGA, RGB-SCART
Sega Genesis: RGB-SCART
Sega Genesis 32X: RGB-SCART
Sega Master System (1): RGB-SCART
Sega Saturn: RGB-SCART
SNK Neo Geo AES: RGB-SCART
SNK Neo Geo CD: RGB-SCART
Sony PlayStation: RGB-SCART
Sony PlayStation 2: YPbPr Component, RGB-SCART
Sony PlayStation 3: HDMI, VGA, Y'PbPr Component

[Machine] = I don't know anything about this console. In case of the N64/GameCube/Wii there might be regional differences in what they're capable of.

PS3 and 360 do support RGB-SCART as well, but it'd be of no practical use to connect them like that as RGB-SCART is limited to 240 lines per frame = 240p/480i = SDTV. That is also the reason why I listed Y'PbPr Component Video higher as it supports 480p and up.