Game Sack

[Thief]

Thanks for that info I wasn't aware off.

But in regards to my personal opinion of this matter, it's not just for games that use dithering. It's for all games. Take Shining Force 1 for the Sega Genesis which basically uses no dithering at all except one little section in one area I noticed once. This game in composite on an old TV looks like a smooth Disney cartoon. Make this pixel perfect clear and it looks like the lego universe instead of a cartoon. Slap lego universe on much bigger TV also (say 50"), and it's pretty unbearable for me personally. (Though all old games shouldn't be played on too big of a TV anyways. Even read that in an NES manual as a kit. Never knew why back then thought, outside of the burning image issue of bigger TV back then? But maybe this was another reason too?)

But yeah, there it is. If I play games in pixel perfect image, then all games look like Batman Returns for Genesis. And from what I hear, most hate that games graphics. So why anyone would want all games to look like that is beyond me?

And even if some did have access to HD like TVs back then. These games weren't made with those TVs in mind. Seem the STT headquarter trip during that MTV Sonic and Knuckles promo? Or was it some other vid? Seen it in two vids maybe? The other about career choices in videogames, I think? Anyways, it clearly shows a person in both cases dragging the image to a TV to see how it would look like on a low def old crappy TV & even mentions this. And for Ecco2, I read an interview where the tools creator set it up so that the pixel artists could see what their art would look like on these TVs right away for convenience to speed things up. So yeah, some folks may of had access to it, but the devs sure didn't make these games with them TVs in mind, that's for sure.



Also, on the PS1 everything looks dithered & on the Saturn all dithered graphics look obviously dithered. So yeah. These consoles and before to me can only be played one way. Smooth looking. And I'm not talking crappy emulator filters either, it can only be something that matches composite or shitty enough S-Video for me, lol.

But it's no biggie. I see now that I'm here and hearing that folks are either on one side of the fence in regards to his issue, while other on the other. I find it really weird, especially for Sega Genesis fans, but oh well. We all like different things, I suppose.

[Gogogadget]

I don't want Megadrive games to look 'pixel perfect' or pixelated on my TV, it's a side effect of the fact that technology didn't come to a complete standstill in the late 80s. I just refuse to buy a CRT TV because it's a waste of money and a pain trying to find the room to put it somewhere.

[FuturePrimitive]

I don't want Megadrive games to look 'pixel perfect' or pixelated on my TV, it's a side effect of the fact that technology didn't come to a complete standstill in the late 80s. I just refuse to buy a CRT TV because it's a waste of money and a pain trying to find the room to put it somewhere.

Why not get a small CRT like a 13 or 14 inch? I have an ordinary late model Toshiba TV and a Sony PVM. They don't take up any space at all and only require a sturdy shelf to sit on. Can't beat a real CRT for classic gaming.

[Gogogadget]

Why not get a small CRT like a 13 or 14 inch? I have an ordinary late model Toshiba TV and a Sony PVM. They don't take up any space at all and only require a sturdy shelf to sit on. Can't beat a real CRT for classic gaming.

Because with a computer monitor, and a TV I kinda meet my quota for the amount of screens I want tbh.

[4Runner]

Play old consoles on a CRT...otherwise, why bother?

[tomaitheous]

Also, on the PS1 everything looks dithered & on the Saturn all dithered graphics look obviously dithered. So yeah. These consoles and before to me can only be played one way. Smooth looking. And I'm not talking crappy emulator filters either, it can only be something that matches composite or shitty enough S-Video for me, lol.

But it's no biggie. I see now that I'm here and hearing that folks are either on one side of the fence in regards to his issue, while other on the other. I find it really weird, especially for Sega Genesis fans, but oh well. We all like different things, I suppose.

Well, PS1 has auto-dithering; the screen was dithered down. I also hate that look.

But what I mean is, this isn't CGA level color artifacting. The dither works on RGB TVs as well as normal TVs. Even the vertical line mode dither than later Gen/MD games employed (because that style of dithering lends itself better for this systems specific composite output signal), is still fully functional on an RGB TV/monitor (not HD. HD wasn't around back then, but RGB setups were). This isn't like the NES, where it has no RGB output whatsoever. Just saying; Gen/MD had the option for RGB clean pixel output - and the dithering in games still worked on those visual devices (it's not CGA method).

I agree with you in your opinion; I'm not a fan of this look either. But I do recognize that it's a valid criticism in the judgement of graphics. For academic purposes for discussing or showing off graphics/etc, very much so - but for playing games, no thanks (IMO). On the other hand, Genesis real composite output is too blurry for my tastes, but a little bit a filtering along with some scanlines is fine. Which is usually why I prefer emulation over the real thing for the Sega 16bitter (a sin, I know, but I don't have an s-video modded system yet - despite having like 6 Genesis consoles). Unless the game of course uses excessive dithering, then original composite is a workable trade off (PS-IV is a good example. The game looks ugly in raw RGB).

But yeah, the dithering doesn't somehow lose its functionality just because you view it on a cleaner/sharper signal/TV. That's my point. Whether it looks better or worse, is subjective

Technically, the PCE is capable of better dithering over composite, than the Genesis, for its mid resolution (if you turn off the XOR c-burst cycling bit). It's basically double the color burst frequency (7.159mhz), meaning you can do CGA style solid color artifacting (I made a few demos). Though I don't know of any game that does this. Beyond Shadowgate for PCE CD attempts this (dithering in this mode, along with vertical line mode in some spots) - but I guess they forgot to turn off this bit/reg.

[Thief]

Well I'm glad your as cool as I thought, tomaitheous.

I haven't had my Genesis plugged in ages. But I'm planning on setting up a rig just for old school gaming once I get an older TV that can blend even in S-Video. That and a Flash cart for all these classic systems until I build my collection up enough since where I left off in the 90's (you know how many games we could all afford back then, lol). And I was already thinking of another Genesis with the S-Video mod too. So glad to hear it still blends on the proper TVs. Plus you saying it might be the best route sounds promising too. So it better be another good sounding model 1 then too if so. My first model 2 I'm keeping untouched to remember how I played Genesis back then.

So wait, when capturing Genesis vids off the hardware, the feed comes before it ends in the TV? If so, Joe might have the right TV still? But didn't Ace record some Genesis vids with a smoother yet still super clean look off the hardware? If so, I think it's OK for me to suggest Joe do the same. After all, I'm really loving this blasted show. Wasted more time again watching it, lol. How many episodes are there?



Finally seen a Shining game get mentioned in the Saturn episode, after shockingly not being mentioned in the RPG episode. Too bad it wasn't a highlight game. As Scenario 2 & 3 I think do the best job showing some really ace Saturn graphics. My fave Saturn graphics, in fact. Heck, make that 32-Bit era graphics. Game is perfect in every area to me. But save it for a proper video capture setup. Otherwise it'll super pixelated just like every other 32-Bit game I've seen (ie. character sprites in SF3 should not look pixelated at default camera zoom. As scanlines off a proper TV fills them rough edges so it looks perfect).

[Gogogadget]

Play old consoles on a CRT...otherwise, why bother?

Because believe it or not but on a HDTV you can still actually see the screen thus making the game perfectly playable.

Putting in an episode request to cover from Shining In The Darkness to Shining Force III (fuck the rest) if you guys feel upto it.

[Pyron]

Technically, the PCE is capable of better dithering over composite, than the Genesis, for its mid resolution (if you turn off the XOR c-burst cycling bit). It's basically double the color burst frequency (7.159mhz), meaning you can do CGA style solid color artifacting (I made a few demos). Though I don't know of any game that does this. Beyond Shadowgate for PCE CD attempts this (dithering in this mode, along with vertical line mode in some spots) - but I guess they forgot to turn off this bit/reg.

Until today i get impressed by the quality of the composite output of pc-eng, by far the best out there.
The genesis composite its very weak for me, and the only reason why i wanna buy one 32x is for use the composite output for some games.
My MD have svideo but some games you must play with composite.

[tomaitheous]

Until today i get impressed by the quality of the composite output of pc-eng, by far the best out there.
The genesis composite its very weak for me, and the only reason why i wanna buy one 32x is for use the composite output for some games.
My MD have svideo but some games you must play with composite.

PCE composite is really sharp (sharpest of the three: snes, md, pce). It's just that you can turn off the bit/reg that makes it sharp (it's called color burst phase alternation). When you do this for mid res mode, it'll blend all dithering with looking 'dirty'. But I don't know of any games that do it or rely on it. Just thought I mention that it has the ability to do it. You can never win with composite though. When PCE games scroll 1 pixel at a time @ 60hz, they lose detail via dot crawl like artifacts (unless you turn this bit/reg off). SNES is probably most consistent looking from still images to scrolling images; it looks sharp enough and the same regardless of movement. PCE is one or the other, but not both.

[SpaceHarrier]

But in regards to my personal opinion of this matter, it's not just for games that use dithering. It's for all games. Take Shining Force 1 for the Sega Genesis which basically uses no dithering at all except one little section in one area I noticed once. This game in composite on an old TV looks like a smooth Disney cartoon. Make this pixel perfect clear and it looks like the lego universe instead of a cartoon. Slap lego universe on much bigger TV also (say 50"), and it's pretty unbearable for me personally.

Liked this part :D

& yeah, kinda agree. But what you've called "smooth Disney cartoon" is what i've recently called "more natural" but for me all depends of the mood in which i am as well as the game i play to / look at. I can go with RGB, S-Video or composite all depending of the game / moment, it's not just one way for all games for me.


Well, should we open a thread about this since it is often discussed? Or maybe there's already one around?

the dithering doesn't somehow lose its functionality just because you view it on a cleaner/sharper signal/TV. That's my point. Whether it looks better or worse, is subjective ;)

This is what i was trying to explain to some members recently.


Also about quality, some weeks ago i've come across a dedicated web page & IIRC (& also if what was said there is right) :

-> composite : composite on PCE is better quality than MD but at the same time this is why MD (Was it planned?) better blends pixels & thanx to this we will have better results on it for all intentioned dithering based effects like shadows / transparencies or color blends.

-> S-Video : ?

-> RGB : MD has very sharp, high quality RGB. & better than the SNES one. Don't remember exactly about PCE, maybe a bit lower quality?


edit : OK just read your last post tomaitheous & it's seems that there are more factors to take in consideration about composite...

edit 2 : ... some examples with pix + gif for every cases would be perfect. & as i said maybe a dedicated topic too.

[tomaitheous]

Also about quality, some weeks ago i've come across a dedicated web page & IIRC (& also if what was said there is right) :

-> composite : composite on PCE is better quality than MD but at the same time this is why MD (Was it planned?) better blends pixels & thanx to this we will have better results on it for all intentioned dithering based effects like shadows / transparencies or color blends.

-> S-Video : ?

-> RGB : MD has very sharp, high quality RGB. & better than the SNES one. Don't remember exactly about PCE, maybe a bit lower quality?


edit : OK just read your last post tomaitheous & it's seems that there are more factors to take in consideration about composite...

edit 2 : ... some examples with pix + gif for every cases would be perfect. & as i said maybe a dedicated topic too.

If you look at the first year or so games for the MD, they don't rely on exploiting the crappy composite (or RF) via drastic dithering like later gen games. Though one could argue that graphics on the MD at the time of its release were already advanced for the time, and didn't need it

The master system, IIRC, has the exact same composite encoder style output (non alternating color burst phase). Given 1988, and given the average size of the television in Japan at the time (remember, all these systems were developed in Japan - with Japanese house holds in mind, and not the rest of the world per se), saving on using a crappier encoder didn't matter a whole lot for picture quality difference for a smaller screen.

But yeah, 1993 is where you starting to see a lot more Genesis/MD tiles using more dithering (even vertical line dithering to specifically cater to the MD composite style signal). Given that, I wouldn't say that they particularly had this in mind at the design stage (there's only so much you can do with composite, s-video wasn't an option IIRC, and RGB was superior). And given that RGB was an option, developers started weighing there options later on (cater to composite/rf which would be the majority, or for both C/rf and RGB).

The original PCE consoles has RGB lines on the back, but they weren't protected or amp'd. The Duo models that replaced them removed that altogether. There was never an official (or unofficial) attachment for the original PCE models to hook up to RGB displays. Weird, because PCE games actually look better in RGB too (with scanlines and slight analog filtering: like an arcade setup at the time, not the RGB displays we have today).

Of course, this is all just fun speculation

[evilevoix]

Why would the PCE and to a lesser extent the SNES bother with Dithering? So many colors available on screen at once.

[tomaitheous]

Why would the PCE and to a lesser extent bother with Dithering? So many colors available on screen at once.

PCE can't do real transparency, so that would be one reason? Colors are still in subpalettes, so there are still color restrictions. The master palette is only 512 colors compared to SNES 32,768 colors - so dithering helps out there as well. IMO, more PCE games should have used dithering. Dithering doesn't look so bad when the colors are closer together, to form gradients.

[A Black Falcon]

PCE can't do real transparency, so that would be one reason? Colors are still in subpalettes, so there are still color restrictions. The master palette is only 512 colors compared to SNES 32,768 colors - so dithering helps out there as well. IMO, more PCE games should have used dithering. Dithering doesn't look so bad when the colors are closer together, to form gradients.

Yeah, even if you can put hundreds of colors on screen, that 512 color palette is still a definite restriction which I would think would make dithering useful sometimes.