Game Sack

[Thief]

Hey, I found the video that proves Sega Technical Institute used TV & Monitors when creating graphics. (Go to 23:05 min into the video)



Female graphics artist Marty says; "I'm working with a computer next to a television screen... see what the game will look like when it's actually viewed on the television."




And here is the Ecco the Dolphin interview that proves this too;

Laszlo Szenttornyai: We had a great tool (I made it) where you can edit the stage on PC and check the result with pressing button [Run]. I mean the game has a downloading module. the other secret why the art was so good is the other feature of the tool: you can draw pixels straight on the Genesis display. The artist (Zsolt) was so talented, and that was a winner combo.

Epicenter: This was writing to VRAM? I suppose you used a development kit, like the kind with a ribbon cable and PC hookup?

Laszlo Szenttornyai: Yes, directly to VRAM. Even selecting colors from the all possible colors on Genesis display.
It was way simpler: Joystick port [to] PC Parallel. We had a big RAM board. We also had an animation tool runs on PC.
That was a commercial product called FilmDirector. Runs on pc, and was capable to make cell based animation.
Another converter program makes it sprites.

Epicenter: The Ecco 2 graphics almost looked 3D rendered.

Laszlo Szenttornyai: It wasn’t. It’s Zsolt’s brain, and his pixellated eyes. Never can do a same quality art on a VGA display. I mean the composite video is so different, like an antialiasing module. And Zsolt can use the shadow feature too. I mean because its displayed on Genesis the shadow/hilight bit can be used. Not in FilmDirector, but on the tile editor, the remote editor. If you see the screen shot of the tool, you may scared :-) its running in text mode on PC :-) Just because only the menu, and code information has to be displayed on PC. The graphic stuff was on the other monitor: the Genesis.

EDIT - source for ECCO interview; http://ecco-darksea.us/?p=13

[j_factor]

Yes, games developed by Sega's North American affiliates were the ones usually developed for composite. See also Eternal Champions, etc. My point still stands that the Genesis shares many games with arcades and computers, usually with dithering seen in the same places, and those were certainly not developed with composite connections. With the particularly good ports, they tried to make the Genesis version as accurate as possible to the arcade/computer version's graphics, down to the pixel level. When possible, they copied the art straight over. If they were trying to replicate the look of the arcade/computer game in RGB on the Genesis in composite, they would have made drastic changes in the other direction so that the game looks "wrong" in RGB on the Genesis and composite changes it back towards the original intent. Look at Joe's old article about video connections, where he shows Midnight Resistance as an example. There are fine details in the art that composite just kind of blurs out, and you have to use a better connection to see them properly. That was clearly not intentional, just look at it.

[Joe Redifer]

Even Neo Geo games have a crap-ton of dithering. Am I supposed to play those with RF as well? Saturn uses dithering. I guess it's composite only for that system then, right? Playstation has that nasty-ass full-screen dirty dithering on 75% of their games. Yet they even SELL their own s-video cables. But we shouldn't buy them, right?

Composite:

Look at the text above the weapons. Yeah, sure, composite is the best way to view this!

Eternal Champions is one of the ugliest games ever made no matter HOW you played it. Remember, I had composite on my Genesis all the way up until about 10 years or so ago. I played all of these games originally in composite. I hated how dithered Eternal Champions looked. I hated how awful Twinkle Tale looked with its "dithered" shadows and whatnot. Bad graphics are just bad graphics. I could see dithering from a mile away even using composite. Composite doesn't fix shit when it comes to dithering unless you have the world's shittiest TV. So take your composite and shove it and leave the rest of us alone, thanks.

[cabear]

i had only rf for my genesis up until emulation became my preferred way of playing. I actually like being able to see what is what, as the image posted above shows. text and details are lost, and as a kid, had i had a set of composite cables or even knew i could buy them i damn sure would have. If i knew there was a better option like rgb, i would have went for that.

[Thief]

Just because a game doesn't have dithering, doesn't have to also mean TVs weren't kept in mind when drawing sprites. A raw pixel perfect sprite when viewed on a pre-HD TV via RF, S-Video or ever RGB, will not look the same as emulation pixel perfect on an HD TV/Monitor. As on a pre-HDTV all of a sudden games get a more anti-aliased look. Especially noticeable for cartoon graphics. Where one looks lego, and another actually looks more like a drawing.


And Joe, for your show I'm saying to stick to S-Video instead of RGB, like for most of you episodes. As RGB is way to close to PC monitor pixel perfect emulation image when viewed off YouTube on a PC monitor (a look even you said are against). Really a simple request. And you've done so many episodes like this anyways. All that other talk is kinda talking about this whole thing in general. So all you need to know, is please stick to S-Video. That is all I ask. It's really a humble request.

[j_factor]

Just because a game doesn't have dithering, doesn't have to also mean TVs weren't kept in mind when drawing sprites. A raw pixel perfect sprite when viewed on a pre-HD TV via RF, S-Video or ever RGB, will not look the same as emulation pixel perfect on an HD TV/Monitor. As on a pre-HDTV all of a sudden games get a more anti-aliased look. Especially noticeable for cartoon graphics. Where one looks lego, and another actually looks more like a drawing.

We're arguing about composite versus RGB, not HDTVs. I would never say that hooking up your Genesis to an HDTV is best. Although really the issue there is not that it's HD per se. Most people have LCD sets, which is the worst for this. CRT HD sets work differently. Not saying they're perfect, but they're not the same. Plasma is a bit better than LCD. But a high quality CRT is ideal. Either way, composite is not best regardless of if you're plugging it into a CRT, LCD, or plasma.

[Gentlegamer]

Even Neo Geo games have a crap-ton of dithering. Am I supposed to play those with RF as well? Saturn uses dithering. I guess it's composite only for that system then, right? Playstation has that nasty-ass full-screen dirty dithering on 75% of their games. Yet they even SELL their own s-video cables. But we shouldn't buy them, right?

Composite:

Look at the text above the weapons. Yeah, sure, composite is the best way to view this!

Eternal Champions is one of the ugliest games ever made no matter HOW you played it. Remember, I had composite on my Genesis all the way up until about 10 years or so ago. I played all of these games originally in composite. I hated how dithered Eternal Champions looked. I hated how awful Twinkle Tale looked with its "dithered" shadows and whatnot. Bad graphics are just bad graphics. I could see dithering from a mile away even using composite. Composite doesn't fix shit when it comes to dithering unless you have the world's shittiest TV. So take your composite and shove it and leave the rest of us alone, thanks.

The other consideration is when you talk in historical terms, using the best modded output isn't an accurate portrayal. You even say that's how you played everything back then. Just something to keep in mind.

[Joe Redifer]

Sounds like Thief likes scanlines which helps give it a more anti-aliased look. Look below:



The top is the raw RGB feed from my Genesis. The bottom is the same image with realistic scanlines applied. It makes it look much more like what you'd see on a CRT. I think it looks nice but unless I'm doing a super close-up I won't use scanlines on Youtube. It'd look horribly bad.

I don't really understand the point Gentle gamer is trying to make. I know what he's saying I just don't know why he's saying it. Just because I always played with a shit connection up to a certain point means what, exactly? That I should keep playing that way? That I should record my games on Youtube that way? Fuck that nonsense! Composite junkies are an audience who I don't care about in the least. I'll keep doing what we've been doing. Sometimes you'll see RGB and sometimes you'll see s-video. We may go 100% RGB if we can get Dave's setup up to speed.

[Assman]

The other consideration is when you talk in historical terms, using the best modded output isn't an accurate portrayal. You even say that's how you played everything back then. Just something to keep in mind.

What's this "best modded output"? Aren't we talking about RGB? All you need to get RGB out of most consoles is the right cable and a display that supports it. That's the purest signal you can get from these consoles, and it's usually available by default. How can the result of the original signal being encoded to a shittier signal be considered any more of an "accurate portrayal"? 'Cause that's what composite is.

[Thief]

Yes, Joe, scanlines are very vital. Why for YouTube recordings without scanlines S-Video seems to the best answer. Without scanlines; Composite/RF is way too blurry, and RGB is way to blocky/pixelated.


But I got a question now that someone mentioned RF. RF is that wired connection with that box thingy that also contains a channel 3 or 4 switch on it, this right? I know I recall my NES having that out of the box, but I can't recall if my Genesis model 2 with Sonic 2 also came with that out of the box? And I recall two connections being packed in with the SNES. Composite or RF and S-Video. This correct too?

[segarule]

Why you don't change the title of thread? Game-Sack to Display-Sack?
About Gamesack it's the best channel because the SMS appear first.

[Thief]

How can the result of the original signal being encoded to a shittier signal be considered any more of an "accurate portrayal"? 'Cause that's what composite is.

Go read my other post on this page to see evidence of dvelopers keeping shittier old TV connections in mind when making Genesis videogame graphics. But nope, some folks here won't be satisfied with this until all other Genesis devs are interviewed on this matter and all answer yes to this too. Like every other dev out there is too stupid to figure this out on their own back in the day?

"Hey Mac, I just brought home a sample of that game we're working on to my son, and... it's looked much more different on a tele then on our monitors?"

"Lay of the crack/cocaine spiked with LSD, Fred."

"But also the testers..."

"Fred, lets get this crap game done already & get paid. I got no time to hear about your tripping out adventures. Haven't ordered an escort in ages."



Then there's the matter of using your own head and analizing Genesis games you play. Pyron is into graphic colour hacks, and he sure figured it out. Because I'm so sure every dev out there designed these old Genesis games to look like the Lego vision emulators provide us today. And all folks going through the trouble to create these CRT filters for at least one emulator of every retro console out there, are just plumb dumb crazy folk. Yep, yep, yep.

Heck, all the Sega compilations Sega released don't make sense either then, because they got lousy filters too. I mean, why would Sega & other companies include them if pixel perfect is the look they were going for from the very start? Why? As practically every retro game I've bought on XBLA/PSN have filters. Even Arcade games like both the first two Contra games. I mean, why would they want to detroy the image in it's purist form when this is the definitive look, Assman? Why?

[retrospiel]

Seen the show left in Japan and Dave dammed Kalinsky, true Sega hero, instead of the real rotten dude named Bernie Stroker who killed Saturn and basically Sega due to releasing Dreamcast so early. But I'm sure others corrected you already.

Aaargh. How is it possible to squeeze so many false information into just one sentence?

[Thief]

Aaargh. How is it possible to squeeze so many false information into just one sentence?

What, there are Bernie Stroker fans out there?

And if it's about the spelling, well... I just don't know how to spell their names. >_>

[Assman]

Go read my other post on this page to see evidence of dvelopers keeping shittier old TV connections in mind when making Genesis videogame graphics. But nope, some folks here won't be satisfied with this until all other Genesis devs are interviewed on this matter and all answer yes to this too. Like every other dev out there is too stupid to figure this out on their own back in the day?

"Hey Mac, I just brought home a sample of that game we're working on to my son, and... it's looked much more different on a tele then on our monitors?"

"Lay of the crack/cocaine spiked with LSD, Fred."

"But also the testers..."

"Fred, lets get this crap game done already & get paid. I got no time to hear about your tripping out adventures. Haven't ordered an escort in ages."



Then there's the matter of using your own head and analizing Genesis games you play. Pyron is into graphic colour hacks, and he sure figured it out. Because I'm so sure every dev out there designed these old Genesis games to look like the Lego vision emulators provide us today. And all folks going through the trouble to create these CRT filters for at least one emulator of every retro console out there, are just plumb dumb crazy folk. Yep, yep, yep.

Heck, all the Sega compilations Sega released don't make sense either then, because they got lousy filters too. I mean, why would Sega & other companies include them if pixel perfect is the look they were going for from the very start? Why? As practically every retro game I've bought on XBLA/PSN have filters. Even Arcade games like both the first two Contra games. I mean, why would they want to detroy the image in it's purist form when this is the definitive look, Assman? Why?

I don't know whose opinion you're arguing with, but it isn't mine. I never said developers didn't keep composite/RF in mind when working on the graphics; it's obvious that many did. I also never said RGB was the definitive look, but using that same argument, if blurry composite is the definitive look, why would those same retro releases have options not to use filters? Filters exist because different people have different preferences. Neither one is necessarily the "definitive look".

All I was doing with my post was addressing Gentlegamer's hypothesis that getting RGB requires modding and therefore is somehow an inaccurate portrayal-- which admittedly I could be misinterpreting as this is a needlessly drawn-out discussion I've largely glossed over-- because it doesn't and it isn't. There are reasonable arguments for and against the use of each format, but everyone has different preferences based on, or despite, what they're used to or nostalgic for. Joe's preference is to use the best quality video available to him, and that's perfectly fine. Why should he acquiesce to anyone else's preferences or nostalgia?