Genesis vs TurboGrafx Parallax. How do they compare?

[kool kitty89]

Yoshi's Island uses it. Why do you think they went with that art style? 2BPP limitation =P Also Super Mario World.

Actually only in the intro AFIK. All the in-game stuff uses mode 1 or 2 (3 or 2 layer modes with 4bpp or 4 & 2 bpp).

As for the usefulness, I was skeptical too, but Tomaitheous gave some really nice examples of that.
Remember you get a full 128 palette entries and (unlike the PCE's pseudo-2bpp mode) the SNES remaps those to 32 3 color palettes for 2bpp cells, so there's a LOT of flexibility.
There's a ton of MD games with tiles often having close to (or less than) 4 colors per cell due to sheer palette limitations. (Tomaitheous showed a 2bpp version of Thunderforce IV's 1st stage that looked pretty much identical to the MD but was done with the 3/4 colors per cell using 16 subpalettes -iirc it was from a PCE demo he did)

Sprites on the SNES are always 4bpp AFIK.


What might have been more useful is a 3bpp mode with 7/8 color tiles (stored as 3-bit tiles in VRAM, saving space), or 5-bit modes for 31 colors. (8-bit is a really big hit to VRAM space and bandwidth, but 5-bit could have been really useful . . . especially since the SNES -like the NES, SMS, and PCE- used planar graphics that allow flexible color depths compared to packed pixel -packed pixel is practically limited to 1, 2, 4, 8, and multiples of 8 thereafter -though technically you could have 3/5/6/7 bit packed pixels, it would be a pain to deal with that sort of data unless the system had a custom processor designed for managing such word sizes)





Most PCE developers probably would have killed for a dual layer 2bpp BG mode (apparently hudson had considered it but ended up not implementing it), especially if CRAM was used as 64 3 color palettes in that mode. (and you'd save VRAM space and bandwidth by using 1/2 the color depth -unlike the PCE's current 2bpp unpacking mode that pads 2bpp graphics to 4bpp on the fly and uses the same amount of VRAM, but less ROM and bandwidth)

[Kamahl]

Most PCE developers probably would have killed for a dual layer 2bpp BG mode (apparently hudson had considered it but ended up not implementing it), especially if CRAM was used as 64 3 color palettes in that mode. (and you'd save VRAM space and bandwidth by using 1/2 the color depth -unlike the PCE's current 2bpp unpacking mode that pads 2bpp graphics to 4bpp on the fly and uses the same amount of VRAM, but less ROM and bandwidth)

Probably. Funny how much having that (which was planned anyway), would have changed things. A lot of the perception that the TG-16 can't compete with the genesis comes from the lack of a second background layer. At least that was my reaction at first.

[awack]

Probably. Funny how much having that (which was planned anyway), would have changed things. A lot of the perception that the TG-16 can't compete with the genesis comes from the lack of a second background layer. At least that was my reaction at first.

No doubt, back in the old times, it was the closest thing to 3D we had..for me the biggest advantage the 2nd layer gives is the ability to subsitute for large sprites(Bosses)

[evilevoix]

Probably. Funny how much having that (which was planned anyway), would have changed things. A lot of the perception that the TG-16 can't compete with the genesis comes from the lack of a second background layer. At least that was my reaction at first.

I think it was a huge mistake on the part of the system developers. That parallax scrolling really made a difference in terms of perception and IMHO really made the games pop.

[Kamahl]

No doubt, back in the old times, it was the closest thing to 3D we had..for me the biggest advantage the 2nd layer gives is the ability to subsitute for large sprites(Bosses)

That's actually one area where the PCE doesn't suffer much at all in the hands of a good programmer, those huge monsters in the water and desert stages of Lords of Thunder, plus some of the bosses, are composed of a mix of background tiles and sprites.
It's much easier to do with a 2nd BG layer though.
The "3D" effect, or better yet, that "depth" gotten from the 2nd BG layer, that is a huge difference. When you have 3 of them like in some Amiga, Neo Geo and SNES games, then it's really the sweet spot. I'd say it's the magic number .
Although on the Genesis you could do dynamic tiles (like the PCE does) to get a third one, I think it's done in Sonic 3.
Dynamic tiles on the SNES would be suicide.

[awack]

The "3D" effect, or better yet, that "depth" gotten from the 2nd BG layer

I use the term 3D, because very early on, thats what some people referred to it as



I definitely agree about some of the better developers being able to work around it, as you mentioned, the Desert Dragon is in front of line scrolling dynamic tiles i believe (Tom pointed this out ) you also have a medium sized scarab that pops up in front of the dragon which is missing from the sega CD port..(people don't realize how much is missing from that port)

You still have some issues though, such as squared off edges, the LOT Dragon does a really good job of camouflaging this and moving only in a straight line...of course Lords of Thunder is the best shooter ever.
On the other hand, you have lesser games such as Strider and Jim Power, which has Bosses, moving all around the screen in front of empty Backgrounds.

[Kamahl]

On the other hand, you have lesser games such as Strider and Jim Power, which has Bosses, moving all around the screen in front of empty Backgrounds.

Jim Power on the PCE is a joke, Jim Power is purely horizontal, there's no reason not to have dynamic tile abuse in that game. Horribly lazy port.
At least on the unreleased MD version they made up for the lack of a third layer by abusing linescrolls, no excuse not to have a second one done "Ninja Spirit" style on the PCE, plus a fast linescroll on the bottom like on the amiga.
Strider is even worse, it has some of the most retarded sprite management imaginable, what a waste of the arcade card...

[Tor Landeel]

I always found very impressive the parallax in Launch Base act 2 in Sonic 3.

[evilevoix]

Although on the Genesis you could do dynamic tiles (like the PCE does) to get a third one, I think it's done in Sonic 3.
Dynamic tiles on the SNES would be suicide.

I am not familiar with the SNES hardware so much. Why would this be suicide?

[Kamahl]

I am not familiar with the SNES hardware so much. Why would this be suicide?

The SNES is limited to updating VRAM during Vblank (like the MD), except it has much less bandwidth than the MD. It can do the least updates of all 3 systems (PCE being the best since although it's not as fast as the MD, it can do it during active display).
If you waste it doing dynamic tiles, you won't be animating sprites a lot.

[TmEE]

MD is not limited to VBL only, its just slow :P but you can transfer half a tile per line, which can be useful, especially for stuff like Hscroll or sprite tables if you hold 2 of them in VRAM (update one, display another)... on SNES you get GFX corruption instead of loaded tile if you dare to do updates mid-line :P

[Kamahl]

Half a tile per line could be really useful for dynamic tiles, since you usually only have a few repeated all over the place.

[Jorge Nuno]

Transfering 1/2 tile per line will also result in 100% CPU occupation (the VDP will hang the CPU for 16 or 32 pixel cycles if the FIFO gets 125% full), unless some clever processing interleaving takes place between writes.
Like write 2 words, do stuff, write another 2, do stuff, etc..

The VDP makers could also make color reloading much more faster (bypassing the FIFO) and not glitchy, if they really wanted (because it's internal SRAM, it's fast and could be dual-ported without added cost)

[Tasuke]

I'd take the 7800 and definitely the X68000 over a 32x for real. In the past two years of reacquiring nes and genesis stuff, I still haven't been persuaded to put $25 into a 32x.

bah, i've been with the Genny since it's 1989 U.S. debut.
it was my very first VG console, in fact.

i still have and use my original Genny to this day,
and i still buy games and accs. for it.

i even lived through, and well remember the short-lived 32X era.

despite all that, i've never once (and probably never will)
consider investing in a GENESIS mushroom...

[evilevoix]

bah, i've been with the Genny since it's 1989 U.S. debut.
it was my very first VG console, in fact.

i still have and use my original Genny to this day,
and i still buy games and accs. for it.

i even lived through, and well remember the short-lived 32X era.

despite all that, i've never once (and probably never will)
consider investing in a GENESIS mushroom...

It’s a fun add-on. Don’t pay too much but is nice to have for Knuckles and VF and V-Racing. There isn’t anything amazing on the unit and it being rushed is obvious but is a nice change of pace and you kinda get the jist of where they were going with the unit. Virtua Fighter may look a lil’ rough but plays amazing. Just look for a proper bundle with common games, you can have fun.