Why the sudden influx of hardware/software comparison threads?

[Aarzak]

I know that its been somewhat commonplace in the time I've been at Sega-16 so far, but as of late it's like they're all over place, and have gotten more hostile, more extremist too. How much longer are we gonna beat these dead horses my ninjas? (PG version of the word )

Personally I blame the infernal avatar of one Zebbe for all of this. The smugness that emanates from it must be fueling rage within people, just as it had with me. Ban his avatar! (please can someone make me an avy or sig banner with a "No" sign over his avatar? )

In all seriousness, how 'bout something new, like comparing gameplay vids by members themselves? I'm prob the best "Wolverine: Adamantium Rage" player on Sega-16, for example. (gameplay vid coming......when I have the time)

[Kamahl]

People like to compare hardware? I dunno.

I do find the hostility funny, a lot of people associate hardware criticism (which is based on actual performance and measurable capability) with system/library criticism (which is totally opinion based).
The only thing worse is people that make incorrect claims about hardware and defend them for 40 pages (looking at you EvilEvoIX).

I'm prob the best "SoulStar" player on this site

[sheath]

Most hardware criticism is leveled at the software/library as well from what I have seen. PCE games are less sophisticated because they have fewer games with parallax. Genesis games look or sound ugly because of the limited palettes and DAC. Most of these discussions wouldn't exist if it were not to claim that one system's library was ultimately superior to another's.

[Kamahl]

Most hardware criticism is leveled at the software/library as well from what I have seen. PCE games are less sophisticated because they have fewer games with parallax. Genesis games look or sound ugly because of the limited palettes and DAC. Most of these discussions wouldn't exist if it were not to claim that one system's library was ultimately superior to another's.

It's an "indirect" jab a lot of the time. Instead of downright attacking the library they attack the hardware.
System X's games suck (because the hardware sucks).
But there are other times when people simply have misconceptions, or they're fans of the system but are pissed off that it's hindered by stupid design choices (like me).

[sheath]

I'd love to interview the fly on the wall that was at every one of these system's design processes. There's something big that somebody calls stupid about all of them.

[Kamahl]

I'd sure love to see what that fly has to say about the design of the atari STE

[Iron Lizard]

For the reason car guys bench race. Its fun until things get heated, hindsight takes over, people start splitting hairs and then I'm out.

[sheath]

As long as you realize that the Honda Prelude 97-2000 model is better than any other muscle car, it's really not that big of a deal.

[kool kitty89]

Simple, the pre-existing topics of those discussions (as well as other, non-technical, historical arguments) were killed by the 2 month gap in the backup, so you get new topics popping up instead. (and you've got even more incentive to rehash since you cant even search/link to previous discussions -unless you dig through the google archives, if intact)

I just wish the discussions were a bit less scattered and haphazard. (makes me want to replay to all of the branching topics and end up with long, somewhat convoluted posts that are time consuming and not particularly convenient to respond to either -albeit not so bad if you look at the individual responses made rather than the entire post -since I include several responses per post to avoid double posts as much as possible)

People like to compare hardware? I dunno.

I do find the hostility funny, a lot of people associate hardware criticism (which is based on actual performance and measurable capability) with system/library criticism (which is totally opinion based).

I wish people could discuss things without the hostility. Sometimes it IS ammusing, but other times it makes me want to ignore them. (I've gotten used to 16-bitter's mannerisms, I don't mind christuserloeser either, Sheth is fine, and a lot of others are too, but a couple just make me frustrated and not want to respond -especially when the otherwise seem like relatively intelligent people but are oddly stubborn or biased in certain areas rather than open to discussion)

I guess it's a lot easier to be objective when you don't have any emotional attachments to the objects of discussion. That and being a fan of history buff type discussions in general helps.

Personally, I've had fun discussing a lot of other historical areas than video games or computers/electronics; WWII aviation and tech stuff was a big one that I still occasionally dabble in. (not so much the political/strategic side of things as technical stuff, but a bit of that as well)
Actually, it's a little surprising with some of the parallels in the technical console or computer vs threads on Sega-16 or Atariage and things like P-80 vs Me 262.

The only thing worse is people that make incorrect claims about hardware and defend them for 40 pages (looking at you EvilEvoIX).

Actually, I found that case more amusing in general. Plus, it ended up bringing up some useful points in side discussions.

I'm prob the best "SoulStar" player on this site

I'd probably be awesome at it if it wasn't for the freeroam stages. I don't care for helicopter style gameplay, but the controls CORE used made it far worse. (if you could simultaneously control all 4 axes of flight, it would be OK, but you have to switch between fore/aft pitch control and elevation and between strafing and turning)
It's a little more tolerable in 2 player, but the freeroam sections totally suck the fun out of it for me. (ralshooting is totally awesome and I think the mech areas are OK, but I haven't bothered to get that far yet)

If it wasn't for the controls and annoying complexity therein (and I can tolerate that a lot being a fan of in-depth flight/space sims), I'd probably like it more than Star Fox. As it is, Star Fox is just WAY, WAY more fun. (and Star Fox 2 managed additional elements and control far better as well . . . hell, having Star Fox 2 type flight controls for freeroam would be easier in many respects, even if you couldn't transform to the walker on command)

Silpheed is a lot more fun too, though totally different gameplay. (I wish that was 2 player, but I wish most single player SHMUPS were 2-player, so go figure )



That, and CORE had a tendency of making their games way too difficult for their own good (and not offering "easy" difficulty options to compensate).
Soulstar sort of feels like Rage's Incoming in that respect. (though at least SoulStar has infinite continues)

Except . . . the problem areas are where it's not difficult in a good/challenging way, but just tedious or annoying (like the restricted controls).
People complain about not being able to circle strafe in console ports of Doom, but this is a lot worse. (it's not even a limitation of the controls since there's plenty of options for more flexible 6 button controls, especially for 2 player mode)

Most hardware criticism is leveled at the software/library as well from what I have seen. PCE games are less sophisticated because they have fewer games with parallax. Genesis games look or sound ugly because of the limited palettes and DAC. Most of these discussions wouldn't exist if it were not to claim that one system's library was ultimately superior to another's.

No it isn't, at least not any of the realistic discussion. (like most claims made by 16-bitter even, let alone my own arguments )
Of course, EvilEvoIX was totally going by software erroneously.

The ONLY time you can fairly compare software is for systems on nearly even ground with developers producing cross-platform games without preference and with equal quality development tools support. Anything else (ie the vast majority of cases) will be skewed by context of the developers and the consoles position on the market. (and the tools/support depending on investment of the hardware maker -poorer tools can be due to hardware limitations, but can also be due to poor investment in tool development -the Saturn and Jaguar suffered from both problems)

Comparing software (or software direction in terms of catering to different regional markets) is being done as well, but often in a non-technical context. (that ties into the whole management side of things -or funding and market position if you go into the jaguar discussion . . . or any system really)
The Genesis and SNES are one of the very few cases where support is remotely comparable, and even then it's pretty sticky to make direct comparisons on the software end. (tons of cases of developers having priorities for one over the other or simply being more experienced in one over the other)

[Kamahl]

They really should have kept to the On-Rails stages, those are all awesome except the very first (which is boring).
The robot stages are cool, I'm ok with those although having to constantly press the turbo button to go anywhere gets boring.
The freeroaming helicopter stages do suck, but they are also VERY easy.

[awack]

Actually, it's a little surprising with some of the parallels in the technical console or computer vs threads on Sega-16 or Atariage and things like P-80 vs Me 262.

I used to debate P-80 vs ME 262 quite a bit a few years back, i always took the side of the me 262, not because it was superior, but because specs on the p-80 were from special aircraft with special paint jobs and the me 262 specs were from poor conditioned craft.

[kool kitty89]

I used to debate P-80 vs ME 262 quite a bit a few years back, i always took the side of the me 262, not because it was superior, but because specs on the p-80 were from special aircraft with special paint jobs and the me 262 specs were from poor conditioned craft.

We went beyond that to real-world performance data on both. (and comparing the 1944/45 models only . . . except then there's the caveat of the P-80 not reaching full production until late 1945 and the fact the Me-262 should have had Jumo 004D engines available by then . . .)

In the end, it's really more of a wash if you compare the 2 as they were in 1945 and comparing the airframes directly. Albeit the Me 262 was more flexible in a number of areas. (a LOT more fuel meaning much longer range with engines of comparable fuel consumption, much larger space for the nose guns allowing flexible or powerful configurations beyond what the P-80 could push)
In any case, the Vampire was really the first production-ready allied jet of worthwhile performance. (of course, it was lower priority than the meteor and ended up entering service later . . . the early Meteors were problematic prior to the revised nacelles and less cost effective in general and the P-59 ended up being overly conservative and poorly performing for a number of reasons that relegated it to training and testbed status)

But I'll stop there or I'll just keep dragging on.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/pol...-a-562-16.html (one very long thread that died and came back a few times -started well before I joined those forums and was revived most recently after I stopped being a frequent poster)
And more recent threads:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...r-21761-4.html

A lot of other discussions on those boards though, and some I've been wanted to bring up but simply haven't since I stopped frequenting that site.

[sheath]

No it isn't, at least not any of the realistic discussion. (like most claims made by 16-bitter even, let alone my own arguments )
Of course, EvilEvoIX was totally going by software erroneously.

16bitter, really. I guess you haven't noticed how he claims gamepilgrimage exists for the soul purpose of making popular consoles look bad. I also eat babies for breakfast, keeps me strong. Oh, and when I ask him for examples to prove his claims he responds with "" and tells me to read through my own posts.

You really can't seriously think any of his posts have any intent but to annoy people who actually enjoy Sega consoles.

The ONLY time you can fairly compare software is for systems on nearly even ground with developers producing cross-platform games without preference and with equal quality development tools support. Anything else (ie the vast majority of cases) will be skewed by context of the developers and the consoles position on the market. (and the tools/support depending on investment of the hardware maker -poorer tools can be due to hardware limitations, but can also be due to poor investment in tool development -the Saturn and Jaguar suffered from both problems)

Not true. Production level Genesis games reveal more "parallax" than even SNES games that use the 3 background mode display. SNES games display more colors on screen than Genesis games, often two to three times the colors. Both of these point to a technical aspect of the systems that nobody would talk about if the production software hadn't revealed it. Software demonstrates in an absolute sense what the console was capable of, but does not necessarily demonstrate what the console cannot do.

It's when the discussion degrades to claims that either platform was somehow intrinsically inferior to the other that software comparisons become mostly useless.

Comparing software (or software direction in terms of catering to different regional markets) is being done as well, but often in a non-technical context. (that ties into the whole management side of things -or funding and market position if you go into the jaguar discussion . . . or any system really)
The Genesis and SNES are one of the very few cases where support is remotely comparable, and even then it's pretty sticky to make direct comparisons on the software end. (tons of cases of developers having priorities for one over the other or simply being more experienced in one over the other)

[Zebbe]

Personally I blame the infernal avatar of one Zebbe for all of this. The smugness that emanates from it must be fueling rage within people, just as it had with me. Ban his avatar! (please can someone make me an avy or sig banner with a "No" sign over his avatar? )

I actually thought about changing the avatar when Pier Solar was released, but I didn't have the material needed on my computer and I've been too lazy to ask Fonzie to get it, so I guess I'll stay with this one. Also, your avatar sucks one for simple reason: many others have the exact same one! I often see it with a post perfect for a smug reply, but since it wasn't you, I have to pass...

[old man]

I'm prob the best "Wolverine: Adamantium Rage" player on Sega-16, for example.

Boy you really threw the gauntlet down with that one. I'm sure people are lining up to challenge your superiority. ;P