The Neo Geo was just a glorified Genesis.

[kool kitty89]

So was I correct about the VDP2 bitmap mode or not?

Even if it doesn't have it (VDP1 framebuffer aside), you can always use a tilemap as a bitmap too. Just don't re-use any tiles and have them all share the same palette (or use direct color pixels). The only difference then would be that the pixels wouldn't be linear in memory (which really doesn't matter if you aren't blitting graphics in realtime) and that you still use a bit more memory for the tilemap tables/attributes (a true bitmap would avoid that).

However, it would be more efficient to make proper use of the tilemap capabilities. Even if using a fully unique tileset with no re-use of characters (like Neo Geo games), you could still optimize color on a per-cell basis and (especially) optimize around using lower color depths (like 4 and 8-bit pixels -15 or 255 colors per cell), which is also what the Neo Geo does. (15 colors per character) And while the Saturn VDP2 only gets 4096 CRAM entries (half of the Neo Geo), you have the flexibility of using an offset to access those entries rather than a fixed set of 256 subpalettes. (ie a 15 color tile could use any 15 consecutive colors in CLUT, or 255 for 8-bit -note, the Jaguar does the same thing for its sprites, though it's limited to 256 entries in the CLUT, but it also supports 1/2/4/8/16/24-bit color depths vs 4/8/16/24 of the Saturn VDP2)

The VDP2 can apply mode-7 style effects on all layers - even the VDP1 framebuffer, if I recall correctly.

I thought that only worked for 2D scaling and rotation and that warping effects required paired BG layers (ie sacrificing a plane to allow a warped plane). Not sure if that warping could be used for the framebuffer too.

[Chilly Willy]

VDP2 can scroll, scale, and rotate cell displays. It can only scroll bitmap displays - bitmaps cannot be scaled or rotated. The sprite bitmap cannot be scrolled, scaled, or rotated. The only thing VDP2 can do with the sprites is limit the area where they are visible, and blend the visible area with the rest of the display. Any scaling/rotating/translating for sprites MUST be done during rendering by VDP1.

[kool kitty89]

VDP2 can scroll, scale, and rotate cell displays. It can only scroll bitmap displays - bitmaps cannot be scaled or rotated. The sprite bitmap cannot be scrolled, scaled, or rotated. The only thing VDP2 can do with the sprites is limit the area where they are visible, and blend the visible area with the rest of the display. Any scaling/rotating/translating for sprites MUST be done during rendering by VDP1.

So VDP2 is more of a simple bitmap VDC when it comes to the framebuffer layer. (that's actually more limited than how the Jaguar does it in some respects -the framebuffer is treated as a normal object or "sprite" by the object processor and can be scaled just like any "sprite" -albeit, in that sense, every "sprite" is a bitmap anyway, so you have a programmable number of bitmaps of various sizes and color depths -1/2/4/8/16/32bpp- that can each be scaled/stretched and blended with other objects -albeit, you can rotate them, the blitter has to generate rotated animation as needed and is relatively slow at that, certainly slow compared to object processor scaling)

[Team Andromeda]

VDP2 can scroll, scale, and rotate cell displays. It can only scroll bitmap displays - bitmaps cannot be scaled or rotated.

I can't remember the exact interview, but seem to remember an Interview with AM#3 Last Bronx team that said otherwise and how the VDP 2 could scale bitmaps . Also I seem to remember a interview with Capcom saying that one of the reasons why the SF II Alpha II was FMV on the PS was because the Saturn was much better at handling stuff like bitmaps thanks to the VDP II (thought that could have been VDI 1 granted) and where it didn't impact on the CPU even with effects used .

But I not saying that are factual btw, has I can't find the mag's with the interviews saying that , but I'm sure-ish ;P AM#3 Last Bronx team did same something like that.

[Chilly Willy]

I can't remember the exact interview, but seem to remember an Interview with AM#3 Last Bronx team that said otherwise and how the VDP 2 could scale bitmaps . Also I seem to remember a interview with Capcom saying that one of the reasons why the SF II Alpha II was FMV on the PS was because the Saturn was much better at handling stuff like bitmaps thanks to the VDP II (thought that could have been VDI 1 granted) and where it didn't impact on the CPU even with effects used .

But I not saying that are factual btw, has I can't find the mag's with the interviews saying that , but I'm sure-ish ;P AM#3 Last Bronx team did same something like that.

My statement was right from the VDP2 manual. The manual specifically states that only cell displays may be rotated or scaled, and that bitmaps may only be scrolled. The sprite layer has a window and then the color combining and priority effects, with no scrolling or rotating or scaling mentioned in the manual.

Now you can make a "bitmap" out of a cell display similar to how you do it on the MD - use different cells for every location on the screen and store the "bitmap" into those cells in cell layout. It's got all different pixels like a bitmap, it's simply not in a "flat" format making it harder to draw to directly.

[j_factor]

The Sega Saturn cannot scale bitmaps. Therefore, the Neo Geo was not a glorified Genesis afterall.

[Chilly Willy]

The Sega Saturn cannot scale bitmaps. Therefore, the Neo Geo was not a glorified Genesis afterall.

The NeoGeo can't scale bitmaps, either. In fact, it doesn't even have bitmaps... or even layers. All it has is sprites. Lots of them, and it can scale them, but that's all it has.

[Joe Redifer]

Does it slice my Photo CDs up into sprites to scale them, then? The Saturn can only scale sprites?

[Sik]

The NeoGeo can't scale bitmaps, either. In fact, it doesn't even have bitmaps... or even layers. All it has is sprites. Lots of them, and it can scale them, but that's all it has.

And the FIX map =P Also sprites can only be shrunk (scaled down), they can't be stretched (scaled up).

[evilevoix]

The NeoGeo can't scale bitmaps, either. In fact, it doesn't even have bitmaps... or even layers. All it has is sprites. Lots of them, and it can scale them, but that's all it has.

It also packs a foot long and a bag of nuts. Probably why it is so awesome and the women swoon.

[Joe Redifer]

sprites can only be shrunk (scaled down), they can't be stretched (scaled up).

I think this is very important to note whenever talk about the Neo Geo's scaling is concerned. In my opinion, this made the Neo Geo's scaling much better than, say, the SNES (which could scale both ways). Whereas the SNES would upscale everything from the smallest possible original size to save memory and end up with a blocky mess, developers on the Neo Geo were forced to draw everything as big as it got, so it never got blocky unless they drew it blocky in the first place (Alpha Mission 2's title screen?). However it did not seamlessly downscale. Samurai Shodown looks like shit when scaled out. Detail flashes in and out of existence and sometimes you can see what almost looks like screen tearing.

[kool kitty89]

The NeoGeo can't scale bitmaps, either. In fact, it doesn't even have bitmaps... or even layers. All it has is sprites. Lots of them, and it can scale them, but that's all it has.

And the Saturn can scale bitmaps too, just not with VDP2. (and VDP2 can do a lot more than just scale bitmaps . . . in fact, VDP1 alone is more powerful than the Neo Geo VDP in pretty much every respect)

And the FIX map =P Also sprites can only be shrunk (scaled down), they can't be stretched (scaled up).

It's like the System 16/18 in that respect (and a few other arcade boards -I think the System 32 could up-scale though).

I think this is very important to note whenever talk about the Neo Geo's scaling is concerned. In my opinion, this made the Neo Geo's scaling much better than, say, the SNES (which could scale both ways). Whereas the SNES would upscale everything from the smallest possible original size to save memory and end up with a blocky mess, developers on the Neo Geo were forced to draw everything as big as it got, so it never got blocky unless they drew it blocky in the first place (Alpha Mission 2's title screen?). However it did not seamlessly downscale. Samurai Shodown looks like shit when scaled out. Detail flashes in and out of existence and sometimes you can see what almost looks like screen tearing.

Actually, it means using smaller maximum sizes or fewer unique objects within the same ROM space . . . and/or fewer/no animation steps for scaling those objects. (meaning more artifacted scaling for cases that do really significant zooming -ie from almost nothing to a big chunk of the screen)

Or, obviously, other compromises to keep the ROM size within the limits set for the game.

[Team Andromeda]

My statement was right from the VDP2 manual. The manual specifically states that only cell displays may be rotated or scaled, and that bitmaps may only be scrolled. The sprite layer has a window and then the color combining and priority effects, with no scrolling or rotating or scaling mentioned in the manual.

Now you can make a "bitmap" out of a cell display similar to how you do it on the MD - use different cells for every location on the screen and store the "bitmap" into those cells in cell layout. It's got all different pixels like a bitmap, it's simply not in a "flat" format making it harder to draw to directly.

Yeah I know, but I'm sure the AM#3 Last Bronx team talked about using the VDP II and its advantages over the PS and I'm sure they talked of VDP II could scale bitmap's. But like I said it's a vage memories and may have got it mixed up with the VDP 1 or something else

[Chilly Willy]

Yeah I know, but I'm sure the AM#3 Last Bronx team talked about using the VDP II and its advantages over the PS and I'm sure they talked of VDP II could scale bitmap's. But like I said it's a vage memories and may have got it mixed up with the VDP 1 or something else

Well, if they really meant it, they probably meant making the bitmap out of the cell mode and scaling/rotating THAT. It's "plain" bitmaps that VDP2 can't scale/rotate. I can see that as devs often gloss over details that the average person wouldn't understand, and doing a bitmap using cell graphics is definitely one of those things the average person would never get.

[Chilly Willy]

Went back through the VDP1 doc... the reason I couldn't find anything on VDP2 scaling/rotating the sprite plane is that VDP2 doesn't do it... VDP1 does. VDP1 has the ability to change how VDP2 reads the frame buffer so that you scale and/or rotate the whole sprite plane as it's sent to VDP2. However, VDP1 has some limits on that - you cannot rotate the sprite plain in high res, interlaced, or HDTV modes, only scale it.