Question about the Genesis Launch

[SEGA.GENESIS1989]

As a consumer, if Golden Axe was bundled in with the SEGA Genesis, I would have been elated. There is no doubt that Golden Axe was and is a killer title for the console. It was one of the first five games I purchased after I got my SEGA Genesis in the winter of 1989 and one of the titles I played often.

When I argue that Altered Beast was the perfect game to pack in with the console, the game demonstrated to the user that SEGA was able to bring the arcade experience into your home. It gave you a taste of what the console could do.

As I mentioned before, the NEO GEO was the definitive console at the time. Every kid I knew wanted this console but alot of us could not afford it.

I think alot of people my age would agree with me when I say that it was not uncommon for us teenagers to head to local mart or coffee shop to play at the arcade cab during our school break or after school. if we were at the mall, we would religiously head to the arcades. I think SEGA recognized the culture at the time and thought that introducing a port of an arcade game would garner attention to their new product the SEGA Genesis or Mega Drive.

When I saw that there was a port of the arcade game Golden Axe for the SEGA Genesis, I was very curious and excited to bring that arcade experience home. And I was not disappointed.

However I think what alot of people are forgetting is Sega`s point of view. I don`t believe it would have made a difference in terms of sales to pack in Golden Axe with the console. Altered Beast was a good enough port to prove to consumers that the console was capable of bringing the arcade experience home. As a Corporation, it would in fact have been a loss in terms of valuable revenue for SEGA if they packed Golden Axe with the console.

If you owned a SEGA Genesis and you had the cash, you would have bought Golden Axe! Which would mean more revenue for SEGA!

[SEGA.GENESIS1989]

Every kid hadn't heard of the NEO GEO. It's marketing campaign was non-existent.

Hahaha! Smart Alick! But your right. I overstepped with that comment.

On a side note, I saw the other thread regarding the NEO GEO being a glorified SEGA Genesis and was thinking how silly the title was (no offence to the original poster). The NEO NEO is such an aethetically pleasing device, from it`s design to the quality visuals and sound.

At one point I was thinking about finally adding the console to my collection but thought otherwise when I discovered how costly the games are these days.

[SEGA.GENESIS1989]

I don`t agree with this statement at all. Nintendo was smart to produce a game featuring it`s mascot. Hell, Mario is a brand in and of itself. And as a result, when SMW was announced to be a pack-in game with the SNES, alot of the kids who owned a NES were itching to get a SNES. And (at least where I live) most kids I knew did!

I think alot of people do not give credit to Nintendo`s marketing strategy. The Ninendo brand has a connotation of producing kid friendly games and over time has carried with it a source of nostalgia vis-a-vis its roster of easily identifiable characters.

[ItellYaHuat]

I don`t agree with this statement at all. Nintendo was smart to produce a game featuring it`s mascot. Hell, Mario is a brand in and of itself. And as a result, when SMW was announced to be a pack-in game with the SNES, alot of the kids who owned a NES were itching to get a SNES. And (at least where I live) most kids I knew did!

I think alot of people do not give credit to Nintendo`s marketing strategy. The Ninendo brand has a connotation of producing kid friendly games and over time has carried with it a source of nostalgia vis-a-vis its roster of easily identifiable characters.

That's why Tom Kalinske stepped in afterwards. Here's a bit from an interview:

"After about three months — there was so much to do — I figured I better go back to Japan and tell them what was on my mind. I go back to Japan, and I meet with Hayao Nakayama and the board at Sega, and I say "look, you guys have got this thing all wrong. You can't sell the Sega Genesis at $189.99," which was ridiculous. I mean, back in those days that was really expensive. I told them "you can't have this title in there, called Altered Beast, because that's not going to sell in Kansas. Also, you must develop software in the U.S., and you're relying too much on Japanese software. You've got to really ramp up your efforts in the United States. You're also up against a competitor that owns 98% of the market, and they scared the hell out of all the other companies, and no one's going to develop for you so long as they have an ironclad grasp of the third party community, so we've got to somehow break that, and I have some ideas on that.. One of them is: you've got to advertise against Nintendo, you know, make fun of them. Ridicule Nintendo and make kids think that the NES is absolutely the uncoolest machine to own."

There were a bunch of other stuff I'm not remembering right now, but I said that if we do all these things, we have a shot at being successful. Oh, and the other one was that we've got to take Altered Beast out and put our own character in. There was a combined U.S./Japanese team working frantically on what became Sonic The Hedgehog, which wasn't called that at the time. I said that we have to put that in with the hardware, and that really pissed them off, because they said I was nuts to want to put our best software title in with the hardware. They felt we already stood to make no money on selling the hardware, particularly if we followed my advice and lowered the price. If we then have no margin on the hardware and we put in the best software title, which should have a 65-70% gross margin, then we were giving up all that profit as well. It made no sense whatsoever.

They said they didn't like anything I had told them and disagreed with all of it, 100%. They didn't agree that we should advertise against Nintendo, staff up the U.S. to develop software, reduce the price of the hardware, or put our best title in with the hardware, and I can't remember all the other stuff they didn't agree with. Basically, they didn't agree with any of it, and I thought that well, this was the shortest career anyone ever had! That's it, three months, and I have to go find another job. But at the door, as he was walking out, Nakayama turned and said "but we hired you to make all the decisions for the United States and Europe, and so, that's what we want you to do, even though we think you're crazy and don't agree with it, go ahead and do it."

[chessage]

According to U.S. trademark records, here are the months to most (but not all) of the 1989 releases:

Altered Beast (August, 1989)
Arnold Palmer Tournament Golf (September, 1989)
Last Battle (August, 1989)
Mystic Defender (September, 1989)
Revenge of Shinobi, The (December, 1989)
Space Harrier II (August, 1989)
Super Hang-On (November, 1989)
Super Thunder Blade (August, 1989)
Tommy Lasorda Baseball (August, 1989)
World Championship Soccer (September, 1989)

[Bastardcat]

"One of them is: you've got to advertise against Nintendo, you know, make fun of them. Ridicule Nintendo and make kids think that the NES is absolutely the uncoolest machine to own."

NEC took this idea and tried to apply it to the Genesis's Sega CD, but they did it in a way that was a spectacular failure.
I warn you. Don't read this, unless you're ready to laugh until you throw up.

[Black_Tiger]

NEC took this idea and tried to apply it to the Genesis's Sega CD, but they did it in a way that was a spectacular failure.
I warn you. Don't read this, unless you're ready to laugh until you throw up.

That was the tail end of TTi, not NEC. Even then it was a joke and they literally weren't trying to compete or even maintain the current user base. They were just killing time and riding out the paychecks to the end. The Johnny Turbo magazine ads were the equivalent of Sega saying fuck you to their customers with the Panzer Dragoon Saga magazine ad.

[Gunstar Zero]

Just wanted to step back in here and say I've had a slight change of heart on this issue after my last few days of gaming. I was in a large group here that said that while Altered beast was good, Golden Axe would have been a superior pack in. Now not really having been quite hold enough for the arcades in 1989 and indeed being a very different gamer now than I was then, in fact I only became the score and skill obbsessed gamer I am now in the last couple of years, I am basing my opinion on my current state. So lets say I'm still me as you see me today, but this is 1989.

Right now I've been playing both Golden Axe and Altered Beast. I also have Ghouls n' Ghosts and Space Harrier II here but I haven't messed with them much yet because AB and GA have kept me busy. But I have to say... I've been playing those two back and forth for about a week and have spent far more time with Altered Beast than Golden Axe.

I like Golden Axe still, let me be clear on that. However as I've said before I'm going chronologically and I've set myself up some goals for each game. I've beat Golden Axe with all but Ax Battler. In Altered Beast I'm working on beating my best scores. Altered Beast has proven to have much higher replay value. When I beat GA, its over. In fact now that I know I can beat it it sometimes feels tedious because I know I'll see the end screen and thats it. There is a scoring system but its not all that specific and there is no challange rounds. The challange rounds in AB is what has kept it entertaining.

On top of these while again I like GA, I find some of its play mechanics annoying. Unlike Streets of Rage, normal attacks are all but useless it seems most of the time and may leave you open to attack. I spend all my time jump striking or double tap shoulder checking/flying kicks. Its a cool move but its a bit annoying to do over and over and over again. I don't have that problem with Altered Beast's attacks. It just feels like a game that I FEEL like playing more than once. So I'm not longer so sure. I think AB may have been the better choice.

[kool kitty89]

That's why Tom Kalinske stepped in afterwards. Here's a bit from an interview:

"After about three months — there was so much to do — I figured I better go back to Japan and tell them what was on my mind. I go back to Japan, and I meet with Hayao Nakayama and the board at Sega, and I say "look, you guys have got this thing all wrong. You can't sell the Sega Genesis at $189.99," which was ridiculous. I mean, back in those days that was really expensive. I told them "you can't have this title in there, called Altered Beast, because that's not going to sell in Kansas. Also, you must develop software in the U.S., and you're relying too much on Japanese software. You've got to really ramp up your efforts in the United States. You're also up against a competitor that owns 98% of the market, and they scared the hell out of all the other companies, and no one's going to develop for you so long as they have an ironclad grasp of the third party community, so we've got to somehow break that, and I have some ideas on that.. One of them is: you've got to advertise against Nintendo, you know, make fun of them. Ridicule Nintendo and make kids think that the NES is absolutely the uncoolest machine to own."

There were a bunch of other stuff I'm not remembering right now, but I said that if we do all these things, we have a shot at being successful. Oh, and the other one was that we've got to take Altered Beast out and put our own character in. There was a combined U.S./Japanese team working frantically on what became Sonic The Hedgehog, which wasn't called that at the time. I said that we have to put that in with the hardware, and that really pissed them off, because they said I was nuts to want to put our best software title in with the hardware. They felt we already stood to make no money on selling the hardware, particularly if we followed my advice and lowered the price. If we then have no margin on the hardware and we put in the best software title, which should have a 65-70% gross margin, then we were giving up all that profit as well. It made no sense whatsoever.

They said they didn't like anything I had told them and disagreed with all of it, 100%. They didn't agree that we should advertise against Nintendo, staff up the U.S. to develop software, reduce the price of the hardware, or put our best title in with the hardware, and I can't remember all the other stuff they didn't agree with. Basically, they didn't agree with any of it, and I thought that well, this was the shortest career anyone ever had! That's it, three months, and I have to go find another job. But at the door, as he was walking out, Nakayama turned and said "but we hired you to make all the decisions for the United States and Europe, and so, that's what we want you to do, even though we think you're crazy and don't agree with it, go ahead and do it."

The problem with that part of Kalinske's interview is that many of those issues had already been pushed (or actuall initiated/accomplished) by Mike Katz prior to Kalinske becoming president in '91.

Katz started the competitive advertising directly against Nintendo, he expanded thecelebrity lisencing signfiicantly, he pushed more for Western developer/publisher support (both for Sega projects and for general 3rd party licensing/publishing -including the very deft handling with EA's threat to go unlicensed).
It also seemd like he was pushing for lower prices and more bundle options too, with $30 the rebate offer introduced in late 1990, dropping the price to a nominal $159.99 and some extra free game offers appearing earlier that year. (and obviously some of that is time limited -hardware gets cheaper as time goes on)

I also think Katz's initial skepticism of Sonic is exaggerated . . . I'm confident that his feelings would have changed as development progressed and the game itself became more tangible. Besides that, SoA still ended up investing significantly in making Sonic more marketable for the US (and it seems that fed back into Japan to some extent, given the final art work looks much closer to the US efforts than the early art -albeit also better in quality than the US box art ). And, of course, even if SoA management had truly felt that Sonic was an unmarketable masscot, they potentially could have pushed for a sprite swap (seval other games saw significnatly bigger modifications than that for localization, for better or worse -it actually may have been wise to do that for Alex Kidd back in the mid 80s . . . at least in the US, though Sega's marketing/management in general with the SMS was a far bigger issue than quirky Japanese art style)


Katz made it pretty clear in his interview with Melf that Sonic was not the reason for his leaving. The problem was not having enough "warm fuzzies" (too direct/straightforward/too the point) when dealing with SoJ management, and SoJ being that sensitive/fickle is quite possibly one of the biggest early warning signs of Sega's fundamental management/communication problems that were largely responsible for what happened later on. (had there not been that conflict, I think Katz may actually have been healthier for Sega than Kalinske, at least in terms of long-term stability -he was willing to push things to make Sega really competitive and he knew the market he was dealing with, but he also seemed to be more realistic than Kalinske and less fast and loose with spending -I doubt he'd have pushed investment spending as far as Kalinske did, and indeed, he had the experience of working at Atari Corp with extremely tight resources in 1985-1988)
The "warm fuzzies" issue probably wasn't helped by his time spend working with Jack Tramiel either.

As a consumer, if Golden Axe was bundled in with the SEGA Genesis, I would have been elated. There is no doubt that Golden Axe was and is a killer title for the console. It was one of the first five games I purchased after I got my SEGA Genesis in the winter of 1989 and one of the titles I played often.

It wasn't a launch title, so it definitely would only have been a post-launch option. (and by that time, you had other games like Shinobi to consider)

Plus, while a popular/iconic Sega game, I think the beat-em-up genre was still more limited/less appealing than some others for the mainstream market at the time. (platformers were the most universally popular -and a variety of sub-genres and cross-genres thereof)
Revenge of Shinobi was probably a more mainstream appealing game (and arguably a better overall game at that) . . . though there's still the possibility of multiple bundle options. (like an arcade pack and sports pack)

For fall of 1990, Castle of Illussion is still significant in any case. (technically impressive color/animation/graphics and sound/music as well as a well established character name and very mainstream/popular game design and play style -and generally high quality) At very least it should have fit into a "family pack" sort of bundle. (if not the main/standard bundle -with other arcade and sports pack bundles available)

However I think what alot of people are forgetting is Sega`s point of view. I don`t believe it would have made a difference in terms of sales to pack in Golden Axe with the console. Altered Beast was a good enough port to prove to consumers that the console was capable of bringing the arcade experience home. As a Corporation, it would in fact have been a loss in terms of valuable revenue for SEGA if they packed Golden Axe with the console.

Actually, this is the perspective (Sega corporate/business) that I've taken from the start of both of these discussions (and the stance I almost always take on anything related to business or technical decisions). It's not an issue of what you or I want/like personally, but what can make the most profit/market share/competitive edge/PR/etc. (and that's where a killer pack-in is very important, even with the trade-off of "sacrificing" a potentially highly profitable game -it's an investment, just like selling hardware at lower margins or spending more in advertizing)

The trick is designing when, where, and how much to invest in things. (that's why management makes the big bucks )
Aside from deciding to make the investment of having a very popular/impressive game "free" . . . but also deciding if/when to change the bundled game. (one could argue that, while Sonic was obviously a massive boon to the system, the switch to Sonic 2 was unnecessary, and it may have been smarter to keep that as standard and leave Sonic 2 as a separate game)

I don`t agree with this statement at all. Nintendo was smart to produce a game featuring it`s mascot. Hell, Mario is a brand in and of itself. And as a result, when SMW was announced to be a pack-in game with the SNES, alot of the kids who owned a NES were itching to get a SNES. And (at least where I live) most kids I knew did!

I think alot of people do not give credit to Nintendo`s marketing strategy. The Ninendo brand has a connotation of producing kid friendly games and over time has carried with it a source of nostalgia vis-a-vis its roster of easily identifiable characters.

Yes, Nintendo was (and is) very good at marketing strategies and profitability . . . the bad thing (for 3rd parties and the market as a whole) was their aggressively anti-competitive policies towards (almost) all 3rd party publishers/developers as well as competing hardware platforms. (what the market needed was a company similarly capable in marketing/management -if not better- while aiming at an open/competitive market model with attractive/open relationships and contracts with 3rd party publishers and an aim at direct competition with other hardware manufacturers -which is more or less what Sega did, albeit without enough stability/coherent management to sustain that -luckily, Sony was/is relatively close to that too . . . obviously still taking advantage of their in-house funding and such to drive marketing and publisher aggreements/relationships, but none of the truly harmful/anticompetitive tactics of Nintendo -especially in terms of harming software houses . . . and they even have a fairly good record for the developers they've bought up or collaborated with -more like Sega and unlike Nintendo or, especially, Microsoft -Nintendo is a mixed bag in terms of 2nd parties . . . RARE is a good example of both the good and bad aspects of that)

[ItellYaHuat]

The problem with that part of Kalinske's interview is that many of those issues had already been pushed (or actuall initiated/accomplished) by Mike Katz prior to Kalinske becoming president in '91.

Katz started the competitive advertising directly against Nintendo, he expanded thecelebrity lisencing signfiicantly, he pushed more for Western developer/publisher support (both for Sega projects and for general 3rd party licensing/publishing -including the very deft handling with EA's threat to go unlicensed).
It also seemd like he was pushing for lower prices and more bundle options too, with $30 the rebate offer introduced in late 1990, dropping the price to a nominal $159.99 and some extra free game offers appearing earlier that year. (and obviously some of that is time limited -hardware gets cheaper as time goes on)

I also think Katz's initial skepticism of Sonic is exaggerated . . . I'm confident that his feelings would have changed as development progressed and the game itself became more tangible. Besides that, SoA still ended up investing significantly in making Sonic more marketable for the US (and it seems that fed back into Japan to some extent, given the final art work looks much closer to the US efforts than the early art -albeit also better in quality than the US box art ). And, of course, even if SoA management had truly felt that Sonic was an unmarketable masscot, they potentially could have pushed for a sprite swap (seval other games saw significnatly bigger modifications than that for localization, for better or worse -it actually may have been wise to do that for Alex Kidd back in the mid 80s . . . at least in the US, though Sega's marketing/management in general with the SMS was a far bigger issue than quirky Japanese art style)


Katz made it pretty clear in his interview with Melf that Sonic was not the reason for his leaving. The problem was not having enough "warm fuzzies" (too direct/straightforward/too the point) when dealing with SoJ management, and SoJ being that sensitive/fickle is quite possibly one of the biggest early warning signs of Sega's fundamental management/communication problems that were largely responsible for what happened later on. (had there not been that conflict, I think Katz may actually have been healthier for Sega than Kalinske, at least in terms of long-term stability -he was willing to push things to make Sega really competitive and he knew the market he was dealing with, but he also seemed to be more realistic than Kalinske and less fast and loose with spending -I doubt he'd have pushed investment spending as far as Kalinske did, and indeed, he had the experience of working at Atari Corp with extremely tight resources in 1985-1988)
The "warm fuzzies" issue probably wasn't helped by his time spend working with Jack Tramiel either.

Yeah true. The aggressive marketing campaigns such as the Genesis Does what Nintendon't ads were there since '89. I don't mean to give Kalinske credit over Katz. I posted the interview for the idea of packing in Sonic with the Genesis but I guess I pasted too much. After that though, Kalinske pretty much took the ball and ran over it, and I mean ran over it. I definitely agree that the company would have been better off with Katz. Improving communication between SoA and SoJ was an issue that definitely needed to be addressed.

[SEGA.GENESIS1989]

Just wanted to step back in here and say I've had a slight change of heart on this issue after my last few days of gaming. I was in a large group here that said that while Altered beast was good, Golden Axe would have been a superior pack in. Now not really having been quite hold enough for the arcades in 1989 and indeed being a very different gamer now than I was then, in fact I only became the score and skill obbsessed gamer I am now in the last couple of years, I am basing my opinion on my current state. So lets say I'm still me as you see me today, but this is 1989.

Right now I've been playing both Golden Axe and Altered Beast. I also have Ghouls n' Ghosts and Space Harrier II here but I haven't messed with them much yet because AB and GA have kept me busy. But I have to say... I've been playing those two back and forth for about a week and have spent far more time with Altered Beast than Golden Axe.

I like Golden Axe still, let me be clear on that. However as I've said before I'm going chronologically and I've set myself up some goals for each game. I've beat Golden Axe with all but Ax Battler. In Altered Beast I'm working on beating my best scores. Altered Beast has proven to have much higher replay value. When I beat GA, its over. In fact now that I know I can beat it it sometimes feels tedious because I know I'll see the end screen and thats it. There is a scoring system but its not all that specific and there is no challange rounds. The challange rounds in AB is what has kept it entertaining.

On top of these while again I like GA, I find some of its play mechanics annoying. Unlike Streets of Rage, normal attacks are all but useless it seems most of the time and may leave you open to attack. I spend all my time jump striking or double tap shoulder checking/flying kicks. Its a cool move but its a bit annoying to do over and over and over again. I don't have that problem with Altered Beast's attacks. It just feels like a game that I FEEL like playing more than once. So I'm not longer so sure. I think AB may have been the better choice.

Hey Gunstar Zero, I'm actually glad that you found an endearing quality to the game Altered Beast. I am also glad that you considered the time and context that this game was released. There is always a personal challenge. One of the last challenges I set for this particular title was beating the game without getting hit. It's very possible to do. With certain bosses, it is possible to stay still at the most pixel perfect point on the screen and not get hit while at the same time inflicting damage.

With respect to Altered Beast, I did the same thing: once I mastered the game I set a goal to finish the game game without getting hit. Once you play the game multiple times, you learn a number of tricks of how to handle the various enemy AI. My favourite character has always been Gilius Thunderhead. Quite a nimble character to use and possessing a good attack for the various enemies. Tyris Flare is fast while I found Ax Battler a little slow. As with Altered Beast, there are effective ways to deal with the various enemy AI. Again, if you find the perfect spot, you can handily take care of multiple enemies at the time. Especially those pesky skeletons.

[SEGA.GENESIS1989]

According to U.S. trademark records, here are the months to most (but not all) of the 1989 releases:

Altered Beast (August, 1989)
Arnold Palmer Tournament Golf (September, 1989)
Last Battle (August, 1989)
Mystic Defender (September, 1989)
Revenge of Shinobi, The (December, 1989)
Space Harrier II (August, 1989)
Super Hang-On (November, 1989)
Super Thunder Blade (August, 1989)
Tommy Lasorda Baseball (August, 1989)
World Championship Soccer (September, 1989)

Cheesage thanks for providing the list. I just realized that for the short period of time that I initially owned the console, I had already amassed 6 out of the 10 initial titles. I think I already mentioned numerous times that Revenge of Shinobi is one of my all time favourite titles. But ironically, I spent multiple hours with Tommy Lasorda Baseball and World Championship Soccer!

I've always said that alot of the sports titles on the system are underappreciated but are actually diamonds in the ruff. If anyone wants a good challenge, go ahead and play Tommy Lasorda Baseball and figure out with players hit the most homeruns, more rbis, etc. Depending on the player, you will need to position the batter somewhere to get the most optimum production value. Once you figure that out, you have an allstar team that will reak havok on the visiting team!
(Somewhere on a piece of lined paper, I had all this stuff written down!)

I can understand why some people hate Last Battle as the game is a little mundane in it's composition. When I first got this title, that is exactly what I that. That was until I figured out how to maximize the character using alot of the basic moves. One thing I always liked about this game was the sprite animation of the bosses. It had a anime art design to the game.

Alas i digress!

[TheSonicRetard]

On the subject of Johnny Turbo: That is a hilarious footnote in video game advertising, but if you want to see an even campier, yet way more awesome swipe at sega, look no further than the Lords of Thunder promo tape:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5EamsCbLos

I disagree with the claim that TTI didn't try to turn the Duo's fortune around, though. TTI actually made a very big marketing push in 1992 - the last push, actually. It was a very different, and much more agreesive campaign than NEC ran earlier in the Turbo Grafx life-time.

Speaking of early turbo grafx marketing, while the lords of thunder promo is more well known, the lesser-seen 1989 "Get Turbo Charged" campaign was actually a lot more personal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geZ7I-d8jQ0

NEC really had no idea how to market the turbo grafx, but looking back now, you have to appreciate the approach they took. It was absolutely the wrong approach, but they knew they had a killer library in japan to fall back on and had no idea what they should and shouldn't have brought over. A very unique, and interesting tactic.

[SEGA.GENESIS1989]

I am quite happy to read that alot of people agree that Castle of Illusion is a very stunning title. I do remember remarking at how beautiful the visuals were. It was almost as if you were staring at a Disney featurette. The colors are vibrant and the animation is smooth. It would be a good pack in title that admittedly both boys and girls could play. The issue is that SEGA would probably have to pay royalities to Disney. A loss of overall profit for SEGA.

kool kitty89, I would agree with that assessment. Nintendo's actions did not go unnoticed for too long back in the 1990s. I think there was a few dailys that actually took issue with the anticompetitive tactics that Nintendo used. In hindsight, I can't really blame Nintendo. Nintendo was only doing what any other smart corporation would do to secure their market share. Part of their goal is to stifle their competition or at least choke it to submission. One cannot forget that profit maximization is one of the caveats to being a successful business.

[Cornholio857]

In regards to Castle of Illusion and other early titles:



It's a good watch.