Any other Master System fans?

[Kamahl]

I agree with your claim that they're widely different from their origins, which is what I think they should have done with Monster World. Create a unique game based off of the same source material, only custom made for the SMS. I think we would have wound up with a better game, and, best of all, we would have had more wonderboy to play.

Agreed. That's usually the best option.

[TheSonicRetard]

Speaking of wonderboy, I was talking to a friend recently who pitched a new Wonderboy game to Sega. He works for a smaller game company, but was in a position where, had Sega been willing, they would have had no problem with his company being granted the rights to such a game. What he said, however, is that Sega has a list of games they're willing to let anybody develop a new title for - Shinobi, for example - and a list of games they are not willing to let anybody but Sega develop for. Wonderboy is on that protected list.

This was a long while ago, right before they publicly announced their intent to bring Monster World IV over seas (so a few years ago at least). So sega still knows about Wonderboy, and they're still protective of it to the point where it seems they have interest in the brand. Maybe, MAYBE if the MW collection does well, we could see a new Wonderboy game. That would be a dream come true - Wonderboy is a series that deserves as many sequels as possible.

[Kamahl]

A new MW would be pretty cool. But the part that saddens me is that Sega no longer cares about Shinobi...

[TheSonicRetard]

A new MW would be pretty cool. But the part that saddens me is that Sega no longer cares about Shinobi...

It's not that they don't care, it's that their team that handled shinobi now does stuff like Valkyria Chronicles and Yakuza, and they're prefer they work on new series. They don't want the series to die, and thus they're open to outside teams working on it.

Wonderboy... they won't let others develop for that series. Which indicates a degree of protectiveness.

[Black_Tiger]

No, the argument for the SMS would have to be some kind of "quality over quantity" argument -- that you dislike NES games and like SMS games more, despite their being so many more NES games. You know, along the lines of the arguments I'd use when I say that I prefer the N64 to the PS1, or the Gamecube and Dreamcast to the PS2.

To me, lots of NES games just don't "feel" right. I mean, the SMB games play great, along with Kirby's Adventure, and one of my favorite NES games, Shatterhand. I wish more NES games were like those. Instead, all too often they have really weird jump physics, gimped controls, or poor collision detection. A lot of NES games that people commonly tout suffer from these problems. Often I can still see the game's good qualities, but these issues just ruin it for me. It doesn't always ruin it for me -- it also results in quite a few "I like the game, but..." situations.

The SMS is one of my favorite consoles on its own right. I love the NES/Famicom and it has lots of great games, but the SMS has a special quality that is lacking in NES games. The aesthetic is a big part of it and it's much more than color. SMS games just feel less restricted and the design of many games offers an experience that feels different than anything for NES. Too many 16-bit games do things like use sprites which are too big or fugly platforms just to act "16-bit" and not "8-bit". The SMS has many games with designs and aesthetics that go beyond what NES games do, while still avoiding the whole gimmicky aspect.

But above all else, my favorite SMS games are some of my favorite games in general and can never be replaced by a sea of "also-goods". Quanity only applies when comparing apples to apples. For me, the SMS offers a unique experience that sets it apart from the NES and all consoles.

SMS controllers are so bad... it's so lucky that most SMS games play on unaltered Genesis controllers!

Only the fixed pad controllers can be difficult to use. The screw-in knob pad controllers, the only kind I ever saw until the late nineties, play at least as good as NES pads when new and continue to work much better in the long run. Probably because it doesn't have crud doesn't building up in the cracks around the d-pad like NES controllers do.

But yeah, there's nothing on SMS that can match top NES compositions. I think Journey to Silius has got to be one of the NES's very best compositions, overall... Sunsoft NES games generally had pretty good music, and that's the best of the bunch. Just incredible work for a NES cartridge!

This is a matter of taste. Before I ever read about the NES being technically more advanced in sound than the SMS, I always thought of music as being one of the big things that SMS games have over NES. I still do. I've played a lot of NES/Famicom games and listened to many youtube NES soundtracks, but the SMS still has some of my favorite music of all time. Compositions that go beyond sounding well done, which have a special quality that can only be measured in the feelings they evoke. I recorded game music onto cassettes until I first gained the ability to record into a PC (DC era) and even my last mixes featured SMS music.

The SMS has a significant edge in arcade adaptations? What? :lol... no, unless you mean only adaptations of Sega arcade games, that's kind of absurd. The NES has orders of magnitude more arcade adaptations than the SMS, and many of them are quite good.

I don't think this is really true. NES was more famous for the "same name, different game" phenomenon with regards to contemporary arcade games. NES does have a lot more old arcade games, like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong, if that's what you were talking about, but those don't really count, in my mind.

I'm glad that most NES arcade ports are fairly unique games. I prefer many to the arcade originals. The SMS however felt more like arcade quality at home. The RGB graphics and more "muscly" games give this impression even with many titles which are not arcade ports. SMS arcade ports still feel like an arcade experience, even when they are customized for the home version. I prefer console games over arcade games and the NES's heavy consolized ports is one of the things that endears it to me. But the SMS did feel much more impressive at the time and when I did want an arcade experience, I looked for it on SMS. R-Type is the best example. The arcade game is special because of its unique aesthetics. Even if the Gameboy version had appeared on NES, the colors alone would have broken that aesthetic in comparison to the SMS version. R-Type feels like you actually are playing the arcade on SMS and that the slowdown and flicker is a result of running a high end arcade game at home. It doesn't feel compromised, as most NES ports do.

The only time that the NES felt like an arcade, was with Super Mario Bros. But the arcade is a console port.

Yeah, I know what you mean here, and I think I agree. There are plenty of horrible looking third party NES games, but the first party stuff generally looks pretty good. That's not quite as true from Sega.

This is again up to personal taste. Too many first party Nintendo games like 10-Yard Fight, Baseball, Clu Clu Land, Donkey Kong Jr Math, Duck Hunt, Excite Bike, Golf, Gyromite, Hogan's Alley, Ice Climber, Kung Fu, Mach Rider, Pinball, Stack-up, Tennis, Wrecking Crew, Wild Gunmen, Popeye, Metroid, Balloon Fight, Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong 3, Donkey Kong Jr, Gumshoe, Urban Champion, Mario Bros, Zelda, Super Mario Bros, etc have to rely on being disqualified for misc excuses.

Sega has many first party productions, including games like licensed games like R-Type, which have graphics that reach farther than NES/Famicom games. Many NES games have some nice art, but it always comes at the compromise of being filtered through the NES. Any of those good looking games could be ported pixel for pixel to SMS and receive improved graphics. The same can't be said in reverse. But even strictly judging existing first party productions between SMS and NES, the SMS holds it own overall and has unrivaled examples like Phantasy Star and Miracle Warriors.

That's ridiculous. First, that game isn't particularly common or cheap. Not exactly a Zelda-level hit there to say the least. As for the gameplay, yes I want to play it, but I have played both of the Genesis Monster World games, that counts for something for sure. And also, while I would like to play the game, I'd rather get the best version, which means I want the TG16 version, Dragon's Curse; in addition to better graphics, it's also got saving to the system, so I wouldn't need to write down long passwords.

You're assuming the TG16 version's better. It's not. Some people like it more but it has horrible redone characters that seem out of place with the backgrounds and the physics aren't quite the same. And what does price have to do with quality? You can get it cheap on Wii or emulate it for free. What's this "not a Zelda-level hit" crap? That's exactly why the game (and system) are so underrated, because people automatically assume it can't compete without having even played it.

If you're simply judging games by hit status, then why discuss the SMS at all? You can't judge WBIII/MWII Dragon's Trap/Curse based on playing other titles in the series any more than you can know SMB3 from playing SMB1. WBIII is by far the best game in the series and one of the best games ever made.

The TG-16 version has majorly upgraded character sprites. Aside from the improved graphics, the artwork of the characters ranges from also-good to much better depending on how you look at it. The SMS Hu-Man and Lizard Man seem out of place against the backgrounds. I think that people who don't like the change simply didn't want any change. All of the visuals has received at least a slight enhancement and the music is a huge improvement. The SMS music is still amazing though. The TG-16 version plays better, mostly due to the jump from 30fps to 60fps.

Both games are worth playing as it is such a good game and they offer unique experiences. The SMS version has unlimited replay value at the end of the game. Unfortunately, this feature was removed from the Turbo version.

Please explain how I'm a clearly biased fan if you have only played a few minutes of them. I played the hell out of both games before judging them against each other. I'm a big fan of the Final Fantasy series but Phantasy Star started out better. I think many FF fans would even agree with that.

I've played through the NES/Famicom versions of FF, FFII & FFIII multiple times as well as many of the remakes and I love them all. Phantasy Star is in another class altogether for me though, so much more fun, with much better graphics and sound and I continue to find myself playing through it much more often than the entire Final Fantasy series combined.

As for Ys, I really like it and it's one of the better SMS games I've played, but the NES has so many fantastic action-RPGs, from the two Zelda games to the two Startropics games to Crystalis and Legacy of the Wizard and The Battle of Olympus and Faxanadu and The Magic of Scheherazade and Willow and more... no, the one quite quite good SMS one does not outweigh the many quite good ones on NES. No way. It would rank high on the overall list, though not on the top, but it's all the system has!

Also, of course, there is also a Japanese-only NES version of Ys out there. Not as good I presume, but it exists.

Y's for SMS was the driving force for me to save up hundreds of dollars to buy a Turbo-CD, only to lose my money to a company which advertised in EGM. I still saved up enough again to successfully purchase a Turbo-CD. Each time, all I could think of was playing an upgraded version of the SMS game. It had a huge impact on me that few games have. It's yet another game that can't simply be canceled out. The NES version is a remake which is still nice enough, but loses the magical quality of the SMS version.

I do love Legacy of the Wizard and Faxanadu, warts and all, and The Battle of Olympus and Willow are cool for what they are. Lord of the Sword and Spell Caster are also cool.

It was important to hardcore gamers who were console RPG fans? Perhaps, but you DO know how tiny that potential market there was, right? I mean, even after Final Fantasy the Western JRPG market was still pretty small. It wasn't until FF7 that it really reached popularity. In 1988... you're talking about a minority of a minority.

I was lucky enough to have a close friend in my neighborhood who got a SMS when it first came out we were able to rent every game which was released early on. As much as I loved the system for games like Wonderboy and Alex Kidd, the SMS RPGs sealed the deal for me and have been in my permanent rotation ever since.

I think that good NES games often have better art design than a lot of SMS games have, really... the graphics aren't as good, but the art design, in the good NES games, can be better. Those Batman shots certainly are a good example of that...

I've always had the exact opposite impression. Those Batman shots are a good example of nice detailed tile art. But it is a perfect example typical NES/SNES visuals, while SMS/Genesis games have better examples of games which look less repetitive and more like actual art. NES/SNES games tend to have more of a patched-together console look and SMS/Genesis games tend to have more of an art-first, arcade-style look.

I can't agree that Golvellius and Golden Axe Warrior are artistically inferior to Zelda, and the Alex Kidd and Wonderboy games seem very comparable to me with the Mario Brothers games. I am equally unimpressed with them all. I haven't played Star Tropics.

If we're talking NES games, how are Golvelius, Alex Kidd and Wonderboy inferior artistically? If anything, they are superior for the most part. This is coming from someone who has completely played through Zelda 1 & 2, SMB 1 - 3 + LL, Golvelius, Alex Kidd IMW and Wonderboy several times.

[Kamahl]

Wonderboy... they won't let others develop for that series. Which indicates a degree of protectiveness.

Surprising considering they got Dimps to work on Sonic games.

[Black_Tiger]

Surprising considering they got Dimps to work on Sonic games.

I don't think that it is protectiveness at all. Sega didn't even make the Wonderboy/MW games and was so un-protective of them that they let them be released on rival consoles. And not just re-branded versions either.

Sega today is like most modern publishers and isn't doing much with many of its classic series.

[TheSonicRetard]

Surprising considering they got Dimps to work on Sonic games.

Judging from recent games, and how dimps had a very tiny role in Sonic 4 episode 2 (with Sega Asia doing the vast vast majority of the work, and Tose handling the clean up) I'd say the days of Dimps handling Sonic's B-tier outings may be coming to an end.

I don't think that it is protectiveness at all. Sega didn't even make the Wonderboy/MW games and was so un-protective of them that they let them be released on rival consoles. And not just re-branded versions either.

Sega today is like most modern publishers and isn't doing much with many of its classic series.

Sega was extremely active in the creation of the Monster World Sega Ages collection, to the point where they actually rehired many old Westone people who were no longer with the company to come on and handle the conversion. They also directly worked on the MWIV translation themselves in-house, rather than using an outside group like M2. Sega has been doing stuff with Monster World recently, and playing it much closer to their chest than, say, the way they've handled Shinobi or Altered Beast.

They're treating it more like they treat Fantasy Zone - with extreme love and care. They won't let just anybody touch the series.

[Gogogadget]

I don't see a reason why Sega won't let another team develop Wonderboy, why not?

And, Dimps did actually make two decent Sonic entries, Pocket Adventure & Advance 1, I guess.

[TheSonicRetard]

I don't see a reason why Sega won't let another team develop Wonderboy, why not?

The same reason they said they wouldn't develop another Bayonetta without Platinum, or why they won't develop another Gunstar Heroes or Guardian Heroes without Treasure - they are exercising restraint when it comes to who makes the game. I would bet that, if the old westone team reformed and asked to create a new Wonderboy, that Sega would let them.

[Gogogadget]

It's nice that they actually care to protect their franchises, but if another team can actually do the series justice, and Sega and it's development teams are probably far too busy to bother with another Wonder Boy title, I can't see why it would do too much harm.

[sheath]

Since the Dreamcast days Sega has lost almost all of their developer talent, they have no choice but to outsource today.

[TheSonicRetard]

I'd rather they exercise restraint. Wonderboy is my absolute favorite Sega franchise - not a single bad game in the entire series. I'd love for the series to return, but I don't want them to make another game just for the sake of there being a new wonderboy game. I'd rather they make a new game when the right team comes around. So long as the series remains as high quality as it is. It, along with Fantasy Zone, deserve Sega's finest touch.

[Thenewguy]

No, Batman on NES's graphics are quite good.

No, they're not, at all, they're around respectable for NES, but not for any other popular system around in 1989 (except the C64 I guess). Batman barely resembles the character, and is two tone with uber compromised colouring (blue face), the backgrounds have a preponderance of empty looking black sections, mixed with the odd element drawn at a right angle (due to the rigid colour stipulations of the hardware). On top of that, for someone that seems to be so critical of over-the-top SMS colour schemes it seems odd to me that you think the bright orange, lime green, and purple backgrounds are what you would consider great colour use. Batman is a fantastic game, and one of my favourites of the 8-bit era, but graphically everything in the game is very much a forced product of the hardware's limitations, and nothing else.

The NES was getting on a bit even in 1987 when it first took off in the US, and from a hardware standpoint (not a business standpoint obviously) should've been discontinued around 1989 and replaced with the SNES at that stage.

I've been looking into bits and pieces about this, and according to a Retrogamer article, and some stuff I read in ACE magazine, the PC-Engine had actually overtaken the NES in Japan in yearly sales during 1989, and NES was becoming old news there by 1990, so its very possible that the only reason NES kept going on, and on through the early 90s despite its obsolescence, was due to its stratospheric popularity in the United States, and the amount of money in that region.

The reason he's purple garbed on NES is that black doesn't show up well against dark backgrounds

That is arguable, and is jumping to conclusions, Batman can't really be black on the NES anyway, because there is only 1 useable shade of black, 1 medium grey, and 1 light grey in the entire NES pallette (with two other indistinguishable shades of grey that Nintendo told developers not to use), if you use black and medium gray for the character, what are you going to do with the background? NES has virtually no other good dark colours to choose from (if going with a black and grey Batman you can only really make the entire background out of dark red, dark green, and dark brown), so Batman could well be mauve simply because black is the only option for the background. What's more, there are much more techie people around here who who know better, but to me I wonder if the preponderance of empty black in the game is just to save on tiles.

On the other hand there's the colour de-emphasis trick, which could've been pretty interesting, but in practice that trick doesn't seem to be used in-game very much, I'm not sure why that is.

Either way, we know for a fact that lack of colours is why the SMS has a mauve Batman, because the Game Gear Batman actually is black. Also its worth noting that Sunsoft's other Batman games on Mega Drive, and PC-engine both have black Batman's, and dark environments (they have enough colours/shades to pull it off).

Only the SMS would harbour a graphical downgrade from a portable of the same bittage.

The Game Gear has a pallette of 4096 colours, that's 8 times the size of the Mega Drive's pallette so its hardly surprising that they had difficulty transfering the colours from Game Gear to SMS, whats more this kind of dark game is exactly the sort of thing which requires high numbers of different shades.

You and TNG are making it all about me and the NES but would either of you seriously take the SMS over the C64?

If I wanted instant loading, and respectable graphics at the time then yes, I would, these systems have different things to offer in comparison to each other, and I feel like different things at different times.

while I would like to play the game, I'd rather get the best version, which means I want the TG16 version, Dragon's Curse; in addition to better graphics, it's also got saving to the system, so I wouldn't need to write down long passwords.

The game is more expensive on TG-16, and they're both very similar anyway, most of the main graphics are pretty much identical apart from the odd texture here an there (brickwork in the starting section, some of the tiled roofs), some of the dithering being replaced, and new sprites, which have been changed to avoid copyright infringement.

My advice would be, if you like the Master System, get the SMS version, if you like the SMS, and TG-16 equally, get the SMS version, its better value for money, its the original version, and its more authentic as an actual Monster World game, as opposed to being a unrelated game separated from its series, if you like the TG-16 console more, then definitely get that version, its an awesome game and is definitely one of the best of its type on Hu-Card.

But then personally I'm not really that taken with remakes or ports to be honest, in a similar way I'm much happier with owning the original three Super Mario Bros games on NES, than the ones on Mario Allstars.

[TheSonicRetard]

Since the Dreamcast days Sega has lost almost all of their developer talent, they have no choice but to outsource today.

Not really, most of it has just consolodated. Today, Sega has 3 big time development teams, and they're all pretty great. Yakuza Team is probably their best team at the moment, being made up of basically all the best parts of Sega's old development teams. A merging of Wow Overworks, Team Shinobi, Hitmaker, and Smilebit. They, of course, make Yakuza, Valkyria Chronicles, Binary Domain, etc.

Today's Sonic Team is completely different from the Sonic Team of the PS2/GCN/Xbox era, and this current sonic team is pretty good. Their last 2 games have been big critical and consumer successes, and they look like their getting better. Every time they've gone up directly against Dimps, they've shown that the current Sonic team is by far a better studio.

Finally, you have AM2, the old standbye. I don't think they need really any explanation.

Even in times past, Sega relied heavily on outside devs to produce some of their top games. Their relationship with platinum, for example, mirrors their relationship with Treasure.