Sonic 3&K questions

[ItellYaHuat]

^Yeah I remember that Sonic 2 Super Sonic glitch at the act end sign. They made a revision of Sonic 2?????

Yeah. I don't know which exact ones are the revisions but in my experience, all of the NFR versions that I've played has the bug and the ones that weren't NFR that I played have that issue fixed among other bug fixes. I know for sure there was one revision. I don't know of any others.

[Ecco]

^ Perhaps because S&K is so much bigger, slower, and harder than the others: there are more opportunites and you'd be more likely to try to hurry through sections, especially after having been hit or slowed down by missing a jump, by spin dashing.

^Hmm you could be onto something. If this happens the same in all the Sonic games, then I'm surprised, but that would be good to know that, since that seems to be the consensus so far... I do use the spin-dash a lot...

That could apply to 3 as well but iirc you were one of those people (rather like myself) who couldn't believe anybody liked the game when you first saw how esteemed it is online.

^Ha yeah you're right, Sonic 3 (alone) was a major disappointment of my middle school years. It was a let-down for two separate birthday parties, my own, and also a friend's party. Actually my friends might have liked it fine (and they were not very familiar with Sonic games), although it was short and over pretty quickly. Maybe I was the only one who was very disappointed, after loving Sonic 1 & Sonic 2 previously... It wasn't until I was much older that I got S&K to "complete" the game. So I thought everyone was let-down by Sonic 3 also.

I find it to happen fairly often in 2, especially Chemical Plant--which is unrelated to outrunning the screen.
There's also a general hitch in Sonic games to initiating a spin dash within a loop or on an incline, where Sonic (or whoever) will catch at the first bit of upslope (my guess is that this is due to too much speed for the flat-to-curved transition, basically like the screen outrunning problem).

If too much speed is my problem, then that's ironic. lol But maybe I'm spin-dashing too much...

As to Knuckles's pinkness, you do mean a reddish pink, right, not carnation pink? I'd call him raspberry coloured myself. If a lighter hue then you're on your own. But iirc (again) didn't you state somewhere you have a mild colour blindness or associated problem? Or it could just be your colour settings on your monitor. Nonetheless I doubt anybody sees him as stopsign red.

^Yeah good memory, I'm just slightly color-blind ("color-deficient") but I'm pretty darn sure he is pink. lol Is he a reddish pink? Yeah, I guess so, but to me, playing with a pink character is unacceptable, no matter how pink he is. lol Plus the character himself is supposed to be red, not pinkish red. Maybe it's my flatscreen TV, but I can't make him stop looking pink completely, unless I crank up the tint.

[Tiddles]

I disagree. Tails also had faster acceleration in Sonic 2. Perhaps they did this in the first place to help the CPU Tails keep up with Sonic in single player mode.

No, the players are completely identical in Sonic 2. It is not a matter of opinion: there is no difference in the values used in the code. Start up Mushroom Hill 2 as each character, hold right from the moment the title card appears, and watch the clock as you get to the first wall where you'll see Knuckles as Sonic or Tails. Absolutely no difference; you always arrive there exactly the same. You can do the same test anywhere you like where you can line the clock up and you'll find the same answer (though it's hard to do in S3K unless at the beginning of an act where everyone starts from exactly the same place with exactly the same intro - you can do it in AIZ1 but you have to suicide once to get Sonic to start at the right place). Try it in Emerald Hill 1 if you want to check Sonic 2, just holding right - no matter the lead character, they will run into the first Masher at exactly the same time.

Why would it have been hard to fix his yellow socks?

The yellow in that palette line is used by the HUD. If you just make it green when Knuckles appears, the HUD will also change colour. The fix I used was to remap which colours are on which palette entries for cutscene Knuckles, but to do so requires quite a lot more space as you can't just reuse the player art in that case.

[TheSonicRetard]

I disagree. Tails also had faster acceleration in Sonic 2. Perhaps they did this in the first place to help the CPU Tails keep up with Sonic in single player mode.

You disagree with fact? Sonic and Tails both have the exact same acceleration and top speed.

[ItellYaHuat]

You disagree with fact? Sonic and Tails both have the exact same acceleration and top speed.

I'm not disagreeing with top speed (in normal form). I'll take the time to revisit Sonic 2 soon (haven't been playing games. school is my excuse). I always remembered Tails with faster acceleration.

I'm not the only one who thinks this. Quoted from some other guy "*nerd glasses* Actually they had the same speed but Tails had a faster acceleration to catch up with Sonic *nerd glasses*
Stand them both in the same place and press forwards at the same time and you would realise this was the case." //google'd

[TheSonicRetard]

Or, you know, read the source code for the games. They both accelerate the exact same way. Both accelerate at a speed of 0.046875 (velocity).

[ItellYaHuat]

Or, you know, read the source code for the games. They both accelerate the exact same way. Both accelerate at a speed of 0.046875 (velocity).

[TheSonicRetard]

I'm not really sure what you mean by this response. You do realize that Tiddles knows a lot about how the Sonic engine works, though, right? So do I, and a lot of other people on this board. More so than by using visual tests.

[Tiddles]

Your mistake is assuming that AI Tails mimics your input exactly.

Here's another test: in an emulator, assign the same controller to both player 1 and player 2, so the same input controls both. Play a single player Sonic and Tails game. Run them into the left edge of the screen, or a wall, so they're in the same position, then run along a flat surface. You'll see that the the characters move in lock step. (Obviously using any of the S3 special moves will desync them, as can jumping from a slope, interestingly; I'm guessing that has to do with the different heights causing one of them to land slightly sooner.)

[Mr Smith]

Will people please stop using facts in debates.

[ItellYaHuat]

I'm not really sure what you mean by this response. You do realize that Tiddles knows a lot about how the Sonic engine works, though, right? So do I, and a lot of other people on this board. More so than by using visual tests.

That's great an all. You guys are passionate enough about this stuff to read the source code and I respect that. If it clears any confusion, I went from believing that Tails had faster acceleration (based on what I remembered) to having a neutral stance on the subject with both your guys' input. I believe you guys but I just wanted to see it again visually for myself to challenge my memory since I have a means of doing so (I own a copy). I just could've sworn that he had faster acceleration after all these years. I'm not ruling out your stance.

Will people please stop using facts in debates.

We aren't politicians.

[TheSonicRetard]

We don't have a stance. We have facts. That Tails does or doesn't accelerate faster is not an opinion.

[Ecco]

The yellow in that palette line is used by the HUD. If you just make it green when Knuckles appears, the HUD will also change colour. The fix I used was to remap which colours are on which palette entries for cutscene Knuckles, but to do so requires quite a lot more space as you can't just reuse the player art in that case.

I still don't really get what you're saying about how it's hard to fix Knuckles' socks color. Because both versions of Knuckles exist throughout the entire game of S3&K...


As for my issue with rolling characters in S3&K suddenly stopping in the middle of a speed sequence, I was playing this last night and this happens when they're rolling and I'm holding DOWN, not diagonal down (since someone asked).

As far as I can tell, some speed sequences require the character to be running, not rolling, or they will get stuck. People said it's in all the Sonic games but I don't remember it happening in the other games.

Also, I guess I still wonder if this is a glitch, or if u guys think the developers intended some speed sequences to require RUNNING only...

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Yeah. I don't know which exact ones are the revisions but in my experience, all of the NFR versions that I've played has the bug and the ones that weren't NFR that I played have that issue fixed among other bug fixes. I know for sure there was one revision. I don't know of any others.

Are you sure it's fixed? The NFR versions would have came later since they were released with the Model 2 Pack in if I remember correctly. So it wouldn't make sense for those not to have the bug fix.

But I'm quite sure that bug wasn't fixed as it happens in Sonic Jam as well. Considering other bug fixes/revisions carried over into Sonic Jam like the fixed Spike Bug in Sonic 1 I would think they would carry over the revision of Sonic 2 that fixed the Super Sonic bug if it did in fact exist.

[Jorge Nuno]

I still don't really get what you're saying about how it's hard to fix Knuckles' socks color. Because both versions of Knuckles exist throughout the entire game of S3&K...


As for my issue with rolling characters in S3&K suddenly stopping in the middle of a speed sequence, I was playing this last night and this happens when they're rolling and I'm holding DOWN, not diagonal down (since someone asked).

As far as I can tell, some speed sequences require the character to be running, not rolling, or they will get stuck. People said it's in all the Sonic games but I don't remember it happening in the other games.

Also, I guess I still wonder if this is a glitch, or if u guys think the developers intended some speed sequences to require RUNNING only...

Playable knuckles use palette 0, the colors which are usually blue used by sonic are replaced by knucks reds in this case.. There is also a green in line 0, used by the robotnik monitor and some other minor things.
NPC knuckles usually uses line 1, it temporarly replaces some level colors with those pinks (he can't use line 0 here or else it would conflict with sonic). In the same spot where was the green in line 0 is now a yellow, used by HUD, the yellow spring and the rings I think.

Line 0 also has 2 reds, used by the shoes and tails's yellow, and a few grays used in monitors/buttons/spikes/bubbles...

Line 1,2 and 3 are reserved for the level colors, except those 2 yellows on line 1.

The problem is that you can't make a sprite taking colors from whatever, it's pool of colors is only 1 palette (any, but only 1). you cant take the green from line 0 and use remapped level colors of line 1. UNLESS they used an additonal tiny sprite just with the green color to patch over the yellowed knucks sprite

Are you sure it's fixed? The NFR versions would have came later since they were released with the Model 2 Pack in if I remember correctly. So it wouldn't make sense for those not to have the bug fix.

But I'm quite sure that bug wasn't fixed as it happens in Sonic Jam as well. Considering other bug fixes/revisions carried over into Sonic Jam like the fixed Spike Bug in Sonic 1 I would think they would carry over the revision of Sonic 2 that fixed the Super Sonic bug if it did in fact exist.

Sonic2 included in the compilation series (S1 + S2 + Dr.Robotnik mean machine) has it fixed.