Short reviews of all games I have for a system: Saturn

[StarMist]

^ I knew there were two, I just thought I've always been too lazy to get around to the second game. Turns out it was the first I've been too lazy to get around to playing.

-- I should know better than to try to correct Barone. My signature bee is disappointed in me.

[sheath]

Sorry but the whole discussion was about the "main game" IMO and how it poorly compare to the other versions. The F1 car driving is a chore so the game is already dead IMO.
The other cars give you a very generic gameplay (unlike the extra modes in 32X version) that I really don't care about since there are tons of much better stuff to play on the PS1.

Okay, in my delirium it occurred to me that I hadn't asked that. I do think that V.R.'s strengths lay in the unique vehicles and tracks, even though that isn't much to jump up and down about.

I think I made it unclear but I was talking about arcade and simulation gameplay comparison.

I just read it wrong, and generally don't like "Arcade" being referred to as simpler, less complex, etc.

V-Rally is very arcade, no simulation there.
Did you try Colin McRae Rally 2.0? It's a big improvement over the first one in all areas. But, anyway, simulation is not about "easy to pick up and play", that would be arcade gameplay definition, I guess.
When you mix those concepts you start to compare apples to oranges and that makes little to no sense IMO. You shouldn't blame a simulator for not being easy to pick up and play and nobody should blame Sega Rally for not damaging the cars... Different concepts, we should consider that in our analysis.

Colin McRae Rally is closer to the real competition 'cause, for an example, you have car damage... Much of the rally drama is about being able to be fast without completely wrecking your car in a single segment or keep pushing it when it's already heavily damaged. The tracks are also way more longer and complex, so it's very hard to memorize all the curves and you usually have to rely on the navigator tips and your driving skills, like int he real world. Stuff like that doesn't make Colin McRae Rally funnier than Sega Rally, by any means, but makes it far more realistic, like I said in my previous post.

I am not sure which McCrae I have played on the PS1, I think I have one of them over there in the bog of eternal stench behind the dog's happy place. I really tried to like V-Rally on Dreamcast but I can't stand racers that make it virtually impossible to stay off the invisible barrier of a track side. Even worse than that is rally racers like that Xbox one everybody considered a spiritual successor to Sega Rally that constantly has you flying off the track and then being teleported back to a stopped position on the track.

Mobil 1 has an arcade mode that reminds me Sega Rally a lot in terms of controls but still has extra stuff like car damage and better physics.

I know that it runs perfectly in Windows 7 32-bit, not sure about the 64-bit but it is one of the least problematic old games.

Hmm, the PC is the only platform I don't mind using CDRs on, but I haven't found a good site with a catalog of old disks. This one seems like one worth looking into. I am also considering building a late 90s gaming PC soon out of spare parts I can scrounge up or buy. I like to see these games on their intended platform.

I had just took your point about comparing it with the most popular PS1 franchises...
In terms of early games it's a bit more even but still goes in favor of PS1 IMO.

In the US that pretty much means Namco racers and Gran Turismo.

I agree about the development part but maybe you should check Motor Toon Grand Prix (this first game was only released in Japan). It's a 1994 PS1 game and has a lot to be explored.

Some day I'll whip up the courage to figure out how to mod my PS2 for imports at least.

I really don't know what you meant here. Maybe "not as easy"??? Because they are very different games.
Gran Turismo has far more complex physics and gameplay. A lot more simulation elements...
Probably the only thing that is kinda comparable to Gran Turismo games on the Saturn is Drift King '97.

I describe everything I dislike about Gran Turismo's "physics" in my ancient review of GT2 Bleemcast. I don't consider the Gran Turismo games good simulators or good racers. I laughed out loud when they added the "manager" mode to GT4 so you didn't even have to play it and could still collect and upgrade cars.

You know my opinion about that, right? US-only library discussions are not for me.
Saturn has just one NASCAR game, right? There are better options on the PS1 but the whole NASCAR series is mediocre.

I'm always going to be coming from a US perspective though, unless the system allows for imports to be played through a cart or disk solution I just haven't had access.

Nope.

Monaco Grand Prix is a PC game, actually Monaco Grand Prix: Racing Simulation 2 is. It was a sequel to F1 Racing Simulation that was a PC exclusive IIRC. The success of the first game made Ubisoft port its sequel to several platforms, including the N64. Those games were very advanced for their time.

Huh, there is an N64, PS1 and Dreamcast game by the same name. The Dreamcast and N64 versions are the same hardcore simulator I was thinking of.

F1 Racing Championship was released first on consoles and was the 3rd game in the series. However, it was release on the PS1 prior to the N64 release. And both versions are not on par with the later ones released for the DC, PS2 and PC (and I'm not talking about the graphics).
The PC game was awesome and until some time ago there was people still making upgrades for it. It had much less flaws than the Monaco Grand Prix games, with much better AI, physics and superb graphics.

I will have to remember to pick this up. I don't even remember a title of that name for the Dreamcast.

[A Black Falcon]

I agree with you here. No matter how many times I tried, I was NEVER able to get first in Sega Rally, mainly because of the very first desert stage. That big curve at the end of the level is ridiculously hard to clear and pass the two cars ahead of you to get first. The 2nd and 3rd stages aren't nearly as difficult IMHO. Daytona I thought was challenging but after unlocking some of the cars with better control and decent speed I was able to finish 1st on all three tracks. Sega Rally...really, really difficult to finish first and get to Lakeside. Used the cheat to get to Lakeside once and got my ass totally kicked. Though it is still an excellent game regardless, one of the best arcade racers of all-time.

Good to know I'm not the only one who finds Sega Rally impossibly hard and can't finish it no matter how many times I try. It's a good game, but the stratospheric difficulty is frustrating.

As for the tracks, that last curve in track 1's tough, but the very sharp curve in track 3's very annoying as well.

And while we're on the subject of Daytona, I thought it was an excellent game. Too many people complain about the pop-up when in all reality it's a non-factor. The controls are spot on and WAY better than Daytona CCE. Some great unlockables and the courses are all there from the arcade. I thought it was a great launch title for the Saturn and had a blast with it for quite a while.

Yeah, Saturn Daytona's a fantastic game, nice to see I'm not the only one who prefers the original version. I think it's the Saturn's best racer of 1995... Sega Rally, Virtua Racing, and Cyber Speedway are good to great, but Daytona is even better. As for PS1 racers that year, Ridge Racer (1994 JP, 1995 US/EU)'s not as good as any of those, and nor is Destruction Derby. Wipeout is great, though.

I am supposing you have tried all of the vehicles and not just the F1. The rest of the vehicle types was where I really grew an appreciation for the game. Keep in mind that I hated it at first, and didn't even buy a complete copy. I think it was about ten years later where I started playing the stock car and go kart and started to see it as a legitimate early racer because of those.

I do think that Barone is too focused on bashing Saturn V.R. because it's not a straight port of the arcade game, and not enough on looking at how it's a pretty good game in its own right. I'd consider it more of a sequel than a port. And yeah, the different cars are all interesting, and it's great how each feels different.

All of these games control better than Saturn V.R. for sure. But I would still like to point out that Saturn V.R. is virtually a Saturn launch game and has more car types and tracks than other early PS1 racers. The only thing I can think of that comes close is High Velocity and Road and Track's Need for Speed. It seemed to me that development time needed to be spent in one place or the other back then because there was no real foundation. So, they either spent the time/money on refining the gameplay, or on more cars and tracks. Even Gran Turismo 1+2 don't play as well as Sega Rally for example. Need for Speed 1 was awesome though, even though it is relatively obscure for a PS1 racer.

Yeah, Saturn V.R. has ten tracks, which is more than most other racing games on 5th gen consoles in 1995... there were some with as many (Hi-Octane, Cyber Speedway, Wipeout, kart racers), but most car racing games at that point had very few tracks at that point.

Sorry but the whole discussion was about the "main game" IMO and how it poorly compare to the other versions. The F1 car driving is a chore so the game is already dead IMO.
The other cars give you a very generic gameplay (unlike the extra modes in 32X version) that I really don't care about since there are tons of much better stuff to play on the PS1.

The "main game" in Saturn V.R. is the championship mode where you play through four seasons, each with a different kind of car. What "main game" are you talking about, arcade mode? That's not the main game.

Nope.

Monaco Grand Prix is a PC game, actually Monaco Grand Prix: Racing Simulation 2 is. It was a sequel to F1 Racing Simulation that was a PC exclusive IIRC. The success of the first game made Ubisoft port its sequel to several platforms, including the N64. Those games were very advanced for their time.

Yeah, Monaco Grand Prix for N64 seems pretty solid for an F1 game.

F1 Racing Championship was released first on consoles and was the 3rd game in the series. However, it was release on the PS1 prior to the N64 release. And both versions are not on par with the later ones released for the DC, PS2 and PC (and I'm not talking about the graphics).
The PC game was awesome and until some time ago there was people still making upgrades for it. It had much less flaws than the Monaco Grand Prix games, with much better AI, physics and superb graphics.

F1 Racing Championship was a Europe-only release on the N64 though, so you'll need a PAL N64 and PAL TV to play it. At least the other F1 game not released in the US, F-1 World Grand Prix II, was released in Japan too, as well as Europe... it's much, much easier to play those imports.

Other versions of F1 Racing Championship aren't much better -- the PC, GBC, and DC versions are all Europe-only too, though those are at least much easier to play on US systems than European N64 games. Only the PS1 version released here, but I imagine it's nowhere near as good as the PC or DC ones... I see that there's also a PS2 one released only in Japan and Europe. Of course, all those no-US-release F1 games are quite understandable, considering how F1's not exactly the US's most popular racing league.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

What bothers me most about the original Saturn port of Datyona isn't the draw distance, it's the frame rate. While the draw distance isn't great, it's not as much of a hindrance as people make it seem. The frame rate bothers me the most as when compared to Sega Rally and CCE, it just looks too choppy. Even Touring Cars frame rate while dipping to lower levels doesn't look as choppy. Daytona along with the original port of Virtua Fighter just has this feeling to it that everything is just moments away of falling apart at the seams. Virtua Fighter it comes from the glitchy polygons and the poor draw distance, in Daytona its a combination of 20fps and the draw distance. If the frame rate was better, I probably wouldn't be as bothered by it.

[Barone]

Good to hear. Haven't played Rush Hour in a long time. What sort of controls do you consider hard? I think the punitive ('arcade' in the coinsucking sense) style that Sega uses much more problematic than most supposedly hard controls. Vanishing Point's are notoriously awful but I don't think really much harder than Sega Rally's--SR is a much better game though. VP does play a bit better on PS than DC though whilst the DC version seems more widely known.

Rush Hour's steering is a bit on the "too quick" side with default settings and people usually struggle with it since they are too lazy to try to adjust the controls or to properly learn how to play a game.
So the game got thrashed over and over again by Internet reviewers (I couldn't find a better term to define them) to the point that it's completely forgotten right now.
It's one of the very few games whose PS1 version is just as good as the PC version. I used to play it on the PC and just noticed a slight downgrade in the graphics but they still look great IMO. Short loading times...
The music is very good and gives you the exact pace of the game.
It's NeGcon compatible.

I never played VP so I'll have to download, burn and play it to give you my opinion. Good to know that the PS1 version plays better than the DC's, 'cause the norm is the opposite.

No, there's actually two of them in Japan. The first was released in Japan right after launch in December 1994, and was never brought out elsewhere. Motor Toon Grand Prix in the US is Motor Toon Grand Prix 2 in Japan. Just like with King's Field.

This.

^ I knew there were two, I just thought I've always been too lazy to get around to the second game. Turns out it was the first I've been too lazy to get around to playing.

-- I should know better than to try to correct Barone. My signature bee is disappointed in me.

Relax, man. US companies made a great effort to confuse us and, sometimes, it works.

Okay, in my delirium it occurred to me that I hadn't asked that. I do think that V.R.'s strengths lay in the unique vehicles and tracks, even though that isn't much to jump up and down about.



I just read it wrong, and generally don't like "Arcade" being referred to as simpler, less complex, etc.

I didn't make it clear so it was my fault, sorry.

I am not sure which McCrae I have played on the PS1, I think I have one of them over there in the bog of eternal stench behind the dog's happy place. I really tried to like V-Rally on Dreamcast but I can't stand racers that make it virtually impossible to stay off the invisible barrier of a track side. Even worse than that is rally racers like that Xbox one everybody considered a spiritual successor to Sega Rally that constantly has you flying off the track and then being teleported back to a stopped position on the track.

I used to play V-Rally on the PC and it was the cheapest among the good ones of the same generation. Mobil 1 is MUCH better. Rally Masters was clearly better too...

Hmm, the PC is the only platform I don't mind using CDRs on, but I haven't found a good site with a catalog of old disks. This one seems like one worth looking into. I am also considering building a late 90s gaming PC soon out of spare parts I can scrounge up or buy. I like to see these games on their intended platform.

That would be cool. '94-'01 were the golden PC days in terms of new good 3D games IMO.
I can link you to old PC ISOs if you want.

In the US that pretty much means Namco racers and Gran Turismo.

The PS1 racing library is much more than that but I could give you better arguments/examples if you set a range for "early" titles. Like "before 1997" or something like that.

Some day I'll whip up the courage to figure out how to mod my PS2 for imports at least.

It would be easier and better to buy an old PS1 model and use one of those cheapo parallel adapters for imports that are still cheap on eBay.
Also 'cause the import library is the one that has more incompatibility issues with the PS2.

I describe everything I dislike about Gran Turismo's "physics" in my ancient review of GT2 Bleemcast. I don't consider the Gran Turismo games good simulators or good racers. I laughed out loud when they added the "manager" mode to GT4 so you didn't even have to play it and could still collect and upgrade cars.

I partially agree with your complaints regarding the terrain issues but GT is not a rally game, sheath. Compare Sega Rally with other rally games. GT is a Turismo series game, like the name says. GT contenders are games like TOCA. The "rally" part of GT is just bullshit, you can see Sony fanboys hyping about it but not me.

I'm always going to be coming from a US perspective though, unless the system allows for imports to be played through a cart or disk solution I just haven't had access.

I understand you but I just found it a very restrictive way to see things. Many US versions are butchered, censored or just don't exist.
And all the hardware that we are discussing here was designed in Japan as probably most of the good games were, so this US thing doesn't make much sense to me.

Huh, there is an N64, PS1 and Dreamcast game by the same name. The Dreamcast and N64 versions are the same hardcore simulator I was thinking of.

I had already explained that in my previous post. I think you overlooked it. Those are ports of the PC game.

I do think that Barone is too focused on bashing Saturn V.R. because it's not a straight port of the arcade game, and not enough on looking at how it's a pretty good game in its own right. I'd consider it more of a sequel than a port. And yeah, the different cars are all interesting, and it's great how each feels different.

Or maybe you're too focused in creating your own reality?
It was supposed to be a straight port, just read the old magazines and the shit that TW said to the press prior to the release... As Race Drivin' also was, but Time Warner just failed miserably with both 'cause they had very incompetent programmers.
You could have 5 CDs of extra content and it would still be a poor port and a poor game IMO.
But if you like it, good for you (I'm being sincere). I really couldn't get any fun from it. I wish I could 'cause I really like V.R.... It's not that I'm nitpicking on the controls/gameplay on purpose, it's just that I was really used to the arcade game and the Saturn version failed to deliver the same experience, not even a similar one.

Yeah, Saturn V.R. has ten tracks, which is more than most other racing games on 5th gen consoles in 1995... there were some with as many (Hi-Octane, Cyber Speedway, Wipeout, kart racers), but most car racing games at that point had very few tracks at that point.

You're right about this.

The "main game" in Saturn V.R. is the championship mode where you play through four seasons, each with a different kind of car. What "main game" are you talking about, arcade mode? That's not the main game.

What the Virtua Racing name stands for? A bunch of generic cars and tracks? No, the game that they thought they were releasing was known as an arcade F1 racing game with great gameplay and a unique handling mechanics; unlike that atrocious port.
As long as it is called "Virtua Racing", that's the main game. Otherwise it should be called "Generic Racing Game" or something...

F1 Racing Championship was a Europe-only release on the N64 though, so you'll need a PAL N64 and PAL TV to play it. At least the other F1 game not released in the US, F-1 World Grand Prix II, was released in Japan too, as well as Europe... it's much, much easier to play those imports.

Other versions of F1 Racing Championship aren't much better -- the PC, GBC, and DC versions are all Europe-only too, though those are at least much easier to play on US systems than European N64 games. Only the PS1 version released here, but I imagine it's nowhere near as good as the PC or DC ones... I see that there's also a PS2 one released only in Japan and Europe. Of course, all those no-US-release F1 games are quite understandable, considering how F1's not exactly the US's most popular racing league.

It's weird but F1 RC (PC game) was published in Brazil and it was quite popular at the time.

The problem with many PS1 ports of PC racing games, especially the later ones, is that they were developed not by the original developer of the PC version. Most of the time just small companies subcontracted to do a quick job and make some easy money to the big publishers.

What bothers me most about the original Saturn port of Datyona isn't the draw distance, it's the frame rate. While the draw distance isn't great, it's not as much of a hindrance as people make it seem. The frame rate bothers me the most as when compared to Sega Rally and CCE, it just looks too choppy. Even Touring Cars frame rate while dipping to lower levels doesn't look as choppy. Daytona along with the original port of Virtua Fighter just has this feeling to it that everything is just moments away of falling apart at the seams. Virtua Fighter it comes from the glitchy polygons and the poor draw distance, in Daytona its a combination of 20fps and the draw distance. If the frame rate was better, I probably wouldn't be as bothered by it.

This, a million times.

[A Black Falcon]

Or maybe you're too focused in creating your own reality?
It was supposed to be a straight port, just read the old magazines and the shit that TW said to the press prior to the release... As Race Drivin' also was, but Time Warner just failed miserably with both 'cause they had very incompetent programmers.

I have no idea what they were saying in the press. I'm just talking about the games as they exist.

You could have 5 CDs of extra content and it would still be a poor port and a poor game IMO.
But if you like it, good for you (I'm being sincere). I really couldn't get any fun from it. I wish I could 'cause I really like V.R.... It's not that I'm nitpicking on the controls/gameplay on purpose, it's just that I was really used to the arcade game and the Saturn version failed to deliver the same experience, not even a similar one.

You're not just nitpicking, you're mostly mentioning things which are just different from the arcade game, not worse. Changing some things isn't necessarily bad. V.R. Saturn isn't the same exact thing as the arcade game, sure, but it is a great Virtua Racing game. As I said though, it's much more sequel (or spinoff) than port. You really should think of it that way. It's not a port, and the arcade-port portion is not the main focus.

You're right about this.

That really was the low point for content in racing games, I think... but Saturn V.R. thankfully is one of the ones that doesn't follow that trend.

What the Virtua Racing name stands for? A bunch of generic cars and tracks? No, the game that they thought they were releasing was known as an arcade F1 racing game with great gameplay and a unique handling mechanics; unlike that atrocious port.

None of this is true.

As long as it is called "Virtua Racing", that's the main game. Otherwise it should be called "Generic Racing Game" or something...

And if we needed a reminder of how right what I said was, here it is: you're entirely focused on whether it's a perfect arcade port or not, and not on how good of a stand-alone game it is. This isn't the arcade game, it's a console game. Console games should be expected to have more content than arcade games, in order to keep players playing longer than most of them would in the arcades. And that's what Time Warner did, added stuff to make this a more full-featured game. Just a casual glance at the arcade and championship modes makes it obvious where most of their focus was in developing this game: in the new championship mode. The arcade mode only has the three original tracks and one original car; the other seven tracks and three vehicle types are championship only. That alone should be all you need to know about where their focus went when making this game: into the new content, and the new mode that you play it in. Adding more tracks and a championship mode was a fantastic idea, and it's something Sega should have been doing at that time too.

Now, I do think that it'd have been great if all 10 tracks and 4 cars were put into the "Arcade" mode in Saturn V.R. too, but oh well... as it is it's okay.

As for the other stuff you said, the new tracks aren't generic, first. The visual style alone clearly sets them apart -- very few other racing games look like Virtua Racing, with that distinctive flat-shaded polygon look. The track designs are all good, too -- they did a good job with the course designs. They look like Virtua Racing-style courses, but they're new, very much like the two new tracks from the 32X game. They're all much, much more faithful to the series than the two new tracks from the PS2 remake... though of course, the same goes for the controls and gameplay. And on that note, even if the handling isn't exactly the same as the 32X game, I think it's very close, and certainly has that distinctive Virtua Racing feel to it. It's absolutely nothing like the very generic controls in the PS2 remake. It's like a slightly different version of Virtua Racing.

As for cars, they basically built off of what the 32X version had added, using those three types but with one more too. It's nice to have the choices, and each car type handles differently. As the first version I played of V.R. was the 32X version, I've never thought of it as an F1 game. It's a general car racing game, not just F1. This is equally true for the 32X and Saturn versions of the game.

Now, does the PS1 have a better overall racing library than the Saturn? Well, probably yes. There are just so overwhelmingly more racing games on the PS1, and the Saturn's library fades somewhat after 1995... the N64 definitely holds up better overall compared to the PS1 than the Saturn, because more of its racing games are good than is true in the Saturn library. I don't think that having more games alone gives a system a better library, but while the Saturn started out extremely strong, it just didn't keep up that momentum, and the other systems passed it overall despite how great the Saturn's 1995 library is.

It's weird but F1 RC (PC game) was published in Brazil and it was quite popular at the time.

F-1 is a LOT more popular in Brazil than it is in the US though, yes? So that makes sense. NASCAR is what's popular here, not F1. Most people don't care much at all about F1.

The problem with many PS1 ports of PC racing games, especially the later ones, is that they were developed not by the original developer of the PC version. Most of the time just small companies subcontracted to do a quick job and make some easy money to the big publishers.

True. However, ports are often done by different developers from the ones who made the original game, unless it was originally designed as a multiplatform title... that's nothing rare.

[A Black Falcon]

What bothers me most about the original Saturn port of Datyona isn't the draw distance, it's the frame rate. While the draw distance isn't great, it's not as much of a hindrance as people make it seem. The frame rate bothers me the most as when compared to Sega Rally and CCE, it just looks too choppy. Even Touring Cars frame rate while dipping to lower levels doesn't look as choppy. Daytona along with the original port of Virtua Fighter just has this feeling to it that everything is just moments away of falling apart at the seams. Virtua Fighter it comes from the glitchy polygons and the poor draw distance, in Daytona its a combination of 20fps and the draw distance. If the frame rate was better, I probably wouldn't be as bothered by it.

I'm not bothered by Daytona's framerate at all, myself. Incredible game.

In the US that pretty much means Namco racers and Gran Turismo.

That's not really true, though... The Need for Speed series was certainly popular as well. And they weren't as popular as Gran Turismo or the Ridge Racer series, but the Road Rash and Wipeout series were also successful and reasonably popular.

I am supposing you have tried all of the vehicles and not just the F1. The rest of the vehicle types was where I really grew an appreciation for the game. Keep in mind that I hated it at first, and didn't even buy a complete copy. I think it was about ten years later where I started playing the stock car and go kart and started to see it as a legitimate early racer because of those.

Going by what he's said, I'[m not sure if he played the championship mode much at all. But yes, you're right -- that really is where the game shines, in championship mode. If I just wanted to play the arcade tracks, I'm probably more likely to just play it on 32X; the Saturn game's main strength is in its additional content.

I don't really make a distinction between Arcade and Console games in regard to gameplay quality. If some PS1 game had the same handling and excellent track design as Sega Rally but with more modes, tracks and cars I would consider it better. Test Drive V-Rally and Colin McRae really didn't do that for me. Maybe they are a better Rally simulation, but they are definitely not as easy to pick up and play.

I certainly don't think that sim racers are better than arcade-style ones in any way, but yeah, V-Rally's an arcade-style game like Sega Rally, not a sim at all.

All of these games control better than Saturn V.R. for sure. But I would still like to point out that Saturn V.R. is virtually a Saturn launch game and has more car types and tracks than other early PS1 racers.

Indeed. It's a pretty complete package for 1995.

The only thing I can think of that comes close is High Velocity and Road and Track's Need for Speed. It seemed to me that development time needed to be spent in one place or the other back then because there was no real foundation. So, they either spent the time/money on refining the gameplay, or on more cars and tracks. Even Gran Turismo 1+2 don't play as well as Sega Rally for example. Need for Speed 1 was awesome though, even though it is relatively obscure for a PS1 racer.

Does High Velocity have more than three tracks? But yeah, you're right -- 3d racing games in the mid '90s generally either spent their time polishing the tracks, polishing the gameplay, or being mediocre in both. You rarely saw both very polished gameplay AND graphics in 3d racing games from '94 through '96. After that things started to gradually improve, but it did stay as at least something of an issue.

Also, NFS, obscure? What? That's a really, really strange comment. The NFS series was very popular... unless you mean just the first game? NFS II, III, and High States are popular, common PS1 games though. And NFS1 isn't exactly rare; it exists in both longbox and small jewelcase variations, and was a successful game on PS1 too. That should be pretty obvious, with how the next four games in the series were all PC/PS1 only, with no Saturn or N64 releases in sight... I do think the series faded in popularity a bit on consoles with Porsche Unleashed, but of course that game was far better on the PC. But the first four PS1 games were certainly popular. It's impressive how NFS has managed to be one of the most popular racing game series around for so long, but it has.

Of course though, on another note, I think that NFS II, III, and IV (High Stakes) are all better games for sure than the first one. Each of the first four NFS games is a nice improvement over the last; it's too bad that that trend didn't continue, but at least it did result in High Stakes, which is an incredible game.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Yeah the Arcade game is incredible, but the Original Saturn port is rather disappointing due to it's poor frame rate.

[Barone]

I have no idea what they were saying in the press. I'm just talking about the games as they exist.

But you are constantly arguing that I should view the game with other eyes... I was just pointing to you that TWI themselves said that we should expect a spectacular port of V.R.. Just that.

You're not just nitpicking, you're mostly mentioning things which are just different from the arcade game, not worse. Changing some things isn't necessarily bad. V.R. Saturn isn't the same exact thing as the arcade game, sure, but it is a great Virtua Racing game. As I said though, it's much more sequel (or spinoff) than port. You really should think of it that way. It's not a port, and the arcade-port portion is not the main focus.

The controls are still awful IMO.

None of this is true.

It used to be true to people that played the arcade game and read the magazines back in those days...

And if we needed a reminder of how right what I said was, here it is: you're entirely focused on whether it's a perfect arcade port or not, and not on how good of a stand-alone game it is. This isn't the arcade game, it's a console game. Console games should be expected to have more content than arcade games, in order to keep players playing longer than most of them would in the arcades. And that's what Time Warner did, added stuff to make this a more full-featured game. Just a casual glance at the arcade and championship modes makes it obvious where most of their focus was in developing this game: in the new championship mode. The arcade mode only has the three original tracks and one original car; the other seven tracks and three vehicle types are championship only. That alone should be all you need to know about where their focus went when making this game: into the new content, and the new mode that you play it in. Adding more tracks and a championship mode was a fantastic idea, and it's something Sega should have been doing at that time too.

Now, I do think that it'd have been great if all 10 tracks and 4 cars were put into the "Arcade" mode in Saturn V.R. too, but oh well... as it is it's okay.

As for the other stuff you said, the new tracks aren't generic, first. The visual style alone clearly sets them apart -- very few other racing games look like Virtua Racing, with that distinctive flat-shaded polygon look. The track designs are all good, too -- they did a good job with the course designs. They look like Virtua Racing-style courses, but they're new, very much like the two new tracks from the 32X game. They're all much, much more faithful to the series than the two new tracks from the PS2 remake... though of course, the same goes for the controls and gameplay. And on that note, even if the handling isn't exactly the same as the 32X game, I think it's very close, and certainly has that distinctive Virtua Racing feel to it. It's absolutely nothing like the very generic controls in the PS2 remake. It's like a slightly different version of Virtua Racing.

The PS2 remake is out of question, it's just too bad to be discussed.

You have a good theory, that probably makes sense to you, but it says almost nothing to me. The game still plays poorly IMO and has nothing of the great arcade game whose name was used to mislead gamers and make them buy a bad game.
I think that 90% of people would never bought that game if they had played it first or if it didn't carry the V.R. brand.

As for cars, they basically built off of what the 32X version had added, using those three types but with one more too. It's nice to have the choices, and each car type handles differently. As the first version I played of V.R. was the 32X version, I've never thought of it as an F1 game. It's a general car racing game, not just F1. This is equally true for the 32X and Saturn versions of the game.

Your own history with the game doesn't change the gaming history though... V.R. is a F1 racing game with arcade gameplay.

Now, does the PS1 have a better overall racing library than the Saturn? Well, probably yes. There are just so overwhelmingly more racing games on the PS1, and the Saturn's library fades somewhat after 1995... the N64 definitely holds up better overall compared to the PS1 than the Saturn, because more of its racing games are good than is true in the Saturn library. I don't think that having more games alone gives a system a better library, but while the Saturn started out extremely strong, it just didn't keep up that momentum, and the other systems passed it overall despite how great the Saturn's 1995 library is.

PS1 has dozens of good racing games in several different sub-genres, that's what makes it better than the Saturn's racing library IMO.
And, yes, the N64 library is clearly better than the Saturn's for 3D racing games.

F-1 is a LOT more popular in Brazil than it is in the US though, yes? So that makes sense. NASCAR is what's popular here, not F1. Most people don't care much at all about F1.

I'm pretty aware of that. Indy was #1 in US for sometime, at least during the C.A.R.T. prime days... After that NASCAR took the lead by a long margin.
But my comment was more based on the fact that piracy is ridiculously high in Brazil, so publishing a PC game here, especially 10 years ago when PCs were far less popular then today, and not in US wasn't very common, even for F1 games.
And F1 was far more popular here during Senna days. The F1 races usually had around 50 points in our TV's audience scale. In 2001 it was around 20 points. Today it's around 10-12 points.
That doesn't make you wrong or something, I was just showing that are more factors to be considered.

True. However, ports are often done by different developers from the ones who made the original game, unless it was originally designed as a multiplatform title... that's nothing rare.

Sure but the post-1998 PS1 ports were especially cheap.

Of course though, on another note, I think that NFS II, III, and IV (High Stakes) are all better games for sure than the first one. Each of the first four NFS games is a nice improvement over the last; it's too bad that that trend didn't continue, but at least it did result in High Stakes, which is an incredible game.

NFS II had some major flaws compared to the first game. It's far more unrealistic. The torque of all cars is just rocketed.
I found some of the NFSII tracks mind blowing though. And I loved cars like GT90. But it was common to find NFS fans that hated it. And that's what make EA change the focus for the third game. They brought back the pursuit element with more "normal" cars rather than focus so much on concept cars like the second game.
In terms of music NFS>>>NFSII IMO (It was also a common complaint in those days).

[A Black Falcon]

I cover NFS 1, 2, 3, 4, and the demo of Porsche Unleased in my PC Racing Games review thread, if you haven't read that; I don't really want to repeat myself. Of course, I also cover NFS1 (Saturn ver.) in the OP of this thread. My PC racing review thread is here: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...the-present%29

Basically, I don't really care if NFS2 is less realistic. I don't think that being more realistic makes racing games better, anyway. Overall though NFS1 and 2 are both quite dated compared to III, High Stakes, or Porsche Unleashed; the latter ones have aged much better. NFS1 hasn't aged well, and NFS2's not much better off.

Also, NFS3 has plenty of expensive cars in it, so I'm not sure what you mean there... and of course, there were some in the first game as well. When I think of NFS at its best, I think of racing expensive cars fast, as you do in all of the NFS games from before Underground. Of course you start in cheaper ones, but then work your way up to the expensive ones.

[Barone]

PCG CGC1: Road & Track Presents: The Need for Speed - 1996, DOS. The first NFS game is a good racing game, but I never spent much time with this. By the time I got this collection in '99, I had many newer racing games after all, and I prefer the gameplay of NFSIII or NFS High Stakes to this one's slightly more simmish design. The graphics are a lot worse too, of course. I found the game hard, with tougher controls than I was used to in the series (II, III, HS). Sim racer fans surely like that, but I don't. Also it has fewer tracks than the later titles, with only three circuits and three 3-part one-way courses. Still, it's a good racing game. This isn't the best version of the game though -- there's an SE version with an additional track, but unfortunately that's not the one in the collection. Also PCG had to cut the car videos in order to fit everything else on the disc, but I don't mind, because I don't watch those anyway (even in the version I own which does have them, for Saturn, I mean). Also on PS1 and Saturn, enhanced from the 3DO original.

Yeah, OK, I don't want to go any further discussing opinions... But yours were certainly affected by the fact that you didn't played the game right when it was released so a lot of its "magic" was detract from your feelings about the game.
I played NFS SE right when it was released and it was far superior to the other games available then.
And NFSII graphics were mindblowing if you had a 3Dfx graphics card.

The videos that you dismissed were sort of important back then... 'Cause the game had the best presentation ever and it was like a living Road & Track magazine. There's was nothing as rich as that in those days and people loved it. Today doesn't make any sense such sort of presentation, but, hey, back then people really cared about some short videos and voiced descriptions... And the PC gamers were a different audience, usually older gamers and more inclined to simulators than pure arcade games.
NFS has a good balance, with arcade gameplay but without being absurd like NFSII. That was my point. I didn't say that realism make things any funnier.

What I said about concept cars should be obvious... Cars like GT90 or Ford Indigo weren't in production when NFSII was released AFAIK. Larborghini Diablo VT, from the first game, was very expensive but it did already existed in some dozens around the world.

Also, if you look back, no other game before NFS gave you that selection of "purebred" (as the back cover said) cars. It's not like today that any $1 game allows you to play with a Viper. We hadn't anything like that before NFS. You could know "exactly" how the cars were, all the specs, see them in action and then play with them, with the proper engine noise of each one, in car view and a physics model that actually gave you some feeling of the real thing (like, Viper is more powerful but heavier and harder to control than a Porsche 911 Carrera). Stuff like that was groundbreaking.

[A Black Falcon]

Yeah, OK, I don't want to go any further discussing opinions... But yours were certainly affected by the fact that you didn't played the game right when it was released so a lot of its "magic" was detract from your feelings about the game.

That's likely true, I probably would think more of the game if I'd first played it in '94 or '96, as opposed to '99 or '00. But I don't think that's the only reason why I think the sequels are better, I prefer III/HS's gameplay too. And the graphics... yeah, they're pretty dated for 1996 (when the PC version first released). NFS, versus, for instance, Screamer 2? Yeah... those NFS1 cars don't look so good in comparison. I mention this in the Saturn NFS1 review too. NFS1 looks great for 1994, but the ports several years later do show some age. But yeah, I played the game after II through HS, and sure, that probably is part of why I liked it less than any of them. But again I don't think that's the only reason. For instance, note how I say that NFS2 also is pretty dated in retrospect, even though I liked it at the time. III and HS have aged better than II, I think. HS and PU still look pretty nice...

I played NFS SE right when it was released and it was far superior to the other games available then.
And NFSII graphics were mindblowing if you had a 3Dfx graphics card.

I don't think NFSII has 3DFX support, actually. That was added in the second version, NFS II SE (which also adds a new track; I cover the NFSII SE demo in my PC thread). The game does look quite nice in 3DFX mode, though, agreed.

The videos that you dismissed were sort of important back then... 'Cause the game had the best presentation ever and it was like a living Road & Track magazine. There's was nothing as rich as that in those days and people loved it. Today doesn't make any sense such sort of presentation, but, hey, back then people really cared about some short videos and voiced descriptions...

I've never read Road & Track magazine, but yeah, I'm sure car people at the time found those videos interesting. I'm not one, obviously. Maybe I should watch them sometime on the Saturn version to see if I find them interesting at all.

And the PC gamers were a different audience, usually older gamers and more inclined to simulators than pure arcade games.

While it is true that PCs have the most serious racing sims, and the oldest average audience, PC games are for all ages, and there are many more arcadey PC racing games too. Almost all of the ones I review in my PC racing games thread are of that more arcadey style -- have you read the whole thread? I love PC racing games, but don't like sim racers. And yes, there are plenty of options. I do think PC racing games had a down period in the early to mid '00s, but fortunately things have improved again, in the last few years.

NFS has a good balance, with arcade gameplay but without being absurd like NFSII. That was my point. I didn't say that realism make things any funnier.

But if you're saying that NFSII is absurd, aren't you saying that you like it less because it's less realistic? I was saying that in contrast, one thing I liked about NFSII when I first played it were the supercars and such.

What I said about concept cars should be obvious... Cars like GT90 or Ford Indigo weren't in production when NFSII was released AFAIK. Larborghini Diablo VT, from the first game, was very expensive but it did already existed in some dozens around the world.

Oh really, some didn't exist? I don't really pay attention to such things. Maybe I'd read that sometime, but I don't remember.

Also, if you look back, no other game before NFS gave you that selection of "purebred" (as the back cover said) cars. It's not like today that any $1 game allows you to play with a Viper. We hadn't anything like that before NFS. You could know "exactly" how the cars were, all the specs, see them in action and then play with them, with the proper engine noise of each one, in car view and a physics model that actually gave you some feeling of the real thing (like, Viper is more powerful but heavier and harder to control than a Porsche 911 Carrera). Stuff like that was groundbreaking.

I'm nowhere near enough of a car person to consider stuff like that a big draw, personally...

[Barone]

That's likely true, I probably would think more of the game if I'd first played it in '94 or '96, as opposed to '99 or '00. But I don't think that's the only reason why I think the sequels are better, I prefer III/HS's gameplay too. And the graphics... yeah, they're pretty dated for 1996 (when the PC version first released). NFS, versus, for instance, Screamer 2? Yeah... those NFS1 cars don't look so good in comparison. I mention this in the Saturn NFS1 review too. NFS1 looks great for 1994, but the ports several years later do show some age. But yeah, I played the game after II through HS, and sure, that probably is part of why I liked it less than any of them. But again I don't think that's the only reason. For instance, note how I say that NFS2 also is pretty dated in retrospect, even though I liked it at the time. III and HS have aged better than II, I think. HS and PU still look pretty nice...

You picked probably the only major advantage of Screamer 2... 'Cause the track textures and trackside objects are better on the NFS. The in car view is ugly on Screamer 2 and the NFS's sfx are clearly superior.

NFS Porsche looks very good today. III and IV have that sort of "plastic" looking that me and StarMist use to hate, but they sure look better than NFSII and I.

I did read your other analysis and comments, I wasn't bashing your opinions or something. I just argued about those points, the other ones I agreed so I didn't see any reason to argue about them.

I don't think NFSII has 3DFX support, actually. That was added in the second version, NFS II SE (which also adds a new track; I cover the NFSII SE demo in my PC thread). The game does look quite nice in 3DFX mode, though, agreed.

Oh, you're right. Sorry but in Brazil most of the time you'd only find the SE versions of I and II, don't ask me why.

While it is true that PCs have the most serious racing sims, and the oldest average audience, PC games are for all ages, and there are many more arcadey PC racing games too. Almost all of the ones I review in my PC racing games thread are of that more arcadey style -- have you read the whole thread? I love PC racing games, but don't like sim racers. And yes, there are plenty of options. I do think PC racing games had a down period in the early to mid '00s, but fortunately things have improved again, in the last few years.

I said "were" 'cause I was talking about past's PC audience. Until the mid '90s it was A LOT different than the today's audience. It's not that there wasn't any arcade style games for the PC, it's just that simulators usually were more relevant and were present in an abnormal quantity compared to the consoles.
Grand Prix II, for an example, came with a manual that was like a real F1 drivers guide. It was huge... PC gamers loved stuff like that; today most of them wouldn't pass the first page of the manual.

But if you're saying that NFSII is absurd, aren't you saying that you like it less because it's less realistic? I was saying that in contrast, one thing I liked about NFSII when I first played it were the supercars and such.

No, I played it like crazy with my friends... The point is that the concept of that game was very different of the first one in many aspects, like the gameplay and physics model.

As a side note, I loved NFSII replays. I must have spent hours watching GT90 replays in Mystic Peaks... lol




Well, let me not totally derail your thread:



I don't have a video capture card so I had to use emulation, but I played it using an analog controller, like if I was using the multicontroller.
Hope it helps... Sega Rally, as later Mobil 1 Rally Championship used, has some sort of catch up system that only works for the next cars ahead you, so, besides how fast you're going on the track, it does a lot of difference how fast you pass the cars. The earlier you pass them, the better. Sometimes you can have a better time without passing so many cars due to some collision with them and it ends up fucking you more than the time itself.
It's also interesting to notice that if you're passing a car and have a lateral collision you'll receive a power boost (!!!). So try to use that to help you.
Reducing the gear before the curve helps to reduce your oversteering, which is great to improve the control of your car and maintain the speed as high as possible.

@StarMist
As I'm using emulation, I don't see the point of a direct link to the videos since they'll look shitty anyway, hehe.

[StarMist]

@StarMist
As I'm using emulation, I don't see the point of a direct link to the videos since they'll look shitty anyway, hehe.

Actually it was in order to see the videos at all. Since updating my player I can't access any videos on any host, which isn't really a big deal but becomes annoying for interactions here. So I was hoping I could DL them direct. Oh well.

re Sega Rally (@ Baloo and ABF) = I'm no good at this game anymore and lost my old times when my Interact card crashed, but killed an hour last night trying to figure what times are needed to beat it on Normal with the default cars (the Lancia should destroy the circuit--it'd be cheating to use it but at least cheating that involves playing). Essentially, you don't need to be able to beat the Time Attack 3 Lap record to win each course; if you can get within about 1 1/2 seconds of that for each course you should be safe to race the circuit. You shouldn't have trouble beating the Desert's lap record either but the others are stiffer and I don't think you need to come particularly close to them to compete in the circuit.
You should choose 3 Laps rather than 1 unless you're far better at two courses than the other and you're hoping to luck through that last--obviously nobody's going to count on luck for 3 laps.
After the Desert you should be 9th; after the Forest 4th, if not 3rd.
It can be Time Attacked pretty well in automatic with a tuned car but on the circuit with default cars I'd stick to manual.

[Barone]

Actually it was in order to see the videos at all. Since updating my player I can't access any videos on any host, which isn't really a big deal but becomes annoying for interactions here. So I was hoping I could DL them direct. Oh well.

Oh, OK... I had to sell my soul to some Russians, but here is it (to download, click in the first button at the left in the screen that will appear):
http://yadi.sk/d/Za2-D_OatjV8
http://yadi.sk/d/aTTpmoXhtko8

Let me know if you need some help with those links.