Short reviews of all games I have for a system: Saturn

[A Black Falcon]

You are completely making a fool of yourself here Black Falcon. Without Manual Transmission cars cannot handle as well. You need the ability to downshift to slow down faster without breaking as much, and to take off once the curve is finished. There is no other option here. You are wrong.

You're the one fooling yourself, if you think that automatic is still worse than manual... what are you talking about, old, outdated manual transmissions that they don't make anymore? Must be. Because automatics are much better than they used to be, and now are just as good as manual.

Also, trying to validate your argument on the merits of American driving standards is beyond silly.

What, because Europeans are oh so much smarter than us? Yeah, no. They'll eventually figure out that automatics are good now. Apparently percentages of automatics in Europe are slowly increasing, though manuals still dominate.

Quite the opposite...

No, it's true.

Just like OutRun Coast to Coast, you can't properly play that game using automatic gears...

Outrun, manual? What? Why would you bother with manual in a game like that? Outrun 2006's an incredible game and my favorite PS2 racing game, but it doesn't exactly seem like the kind of thing where manual would matter at all...

You're completely wrong in that part.
Take any of these games, that are not simulators AFAIK:
NFS
NFSII
NFS Porsche
NFS Underground 2
OutRun 2/Coast to Coast
Sega Rally
Daytona USA (arcade)
Daytona USA CCE (PC or Saturn)
Gran Turismo 2
...

You'll never beat my lap times in those games using automatic gears.
Having to change the gears manually may appear to make the things harder since you're not used to that but for those with practice it's natural and allows one to take the most out of the car.

Gran Turismo's a somewhat simmish series, I wouldn't include it with the rest of those. It's not a simulator, but it's more simmish than anything else on your list there. Anyway though, I have no idea if I'll match your lap times or not, of course, whatever they are. But manual versus automatic certainly would not be the only determining factor.

May I ask you if you ever customize your cars in games like Gran Turismo?

I haven't played Gran Turismo before (maybe two minutes of one of the PS1 games once many years ago, but beyond that nothing), but in games where you have car settings... well, I talk about that in my PC racing games thread, and in some of the console threads too: I have no idea what most of those detailed car-tweaking settings do, so either I ignore them and hope the defaults work well, or I semi-randomly try moving the slider bars around to see what happens, in the hopes that it makes the car handle better. Gear ratios? Yeah, I'll never care about figuring out such things. I generally prefer racing games which don't have such options... though there are some I like that have a few car-settings sliders, I generally don't mess with them unless the car is handling quite poorly. Motocross Madness 2 has detailed car settings stuff for instance, but I've never touched it. I did try changing the settings in R Racing Evolution for Gamecube, but none of them made that game good... I do think I managed to get it slightly better than the defaults, though. Even simpler things like the four slider bars in Rally Challenge 2000 for the N64 confuse me though, what do those sliders DO? You should show how each of those changes directly affects the car stats...) I'm not a car person. I just like racing games, I don't really enjoy driving in real life.

[sheath]

You're the one fooling yourself, if you think that automatic is still worse than manual... what are you talking about, old, outdated manual transmissions that they don't make anymore? Must be. Because automatics are much better than they used to be, and now are just as good as manual.

Yup, I knew it, you can't handle even the possibility of being wrong. But you are. Please tell me how many real cars you have driven long enough to understand how to powerslide in the dirt or on a wet road without losing any control. Then tell me how many cars you have driven that were manual transmission. I'm betting zero on both counts.

Outrun, manual? What? Why would you bother with manual in a game like that? Outrun 2006's an incredible game and my favorite PS2 racing game, but it doesn't exactly seem like the kind of thing where manual would matter at all...

Outrun on Master System has two manual speeds, just like all of the Arcade games. My four year old can't play it yet because he doesn't have the awareness to know when to shift into high. As a matter of fact, Yu Suzuki himself disagrees with you. Ponder on that for a moment.

[StarMist]

Yup, I knew it, you can't handle even the possibility of being wrong.

That's the story. Every one of A Black Falcon's threads devolves to bickering because he mentally spazzes out at the drop of a hat. And here we are, another rum thread. By all means ABF please create a Short Reviews thread on your Genesis collexion, the bile will positively drip from my computer screen.

[A Black Falcon]

Yup, I knew it, you can't handle even the possibility of being wrong. But you are. Please tell me how many real cars you have driven long enough to understand how to powerslide in the dirt or on a wet road without losing any control. Then tell me how many cars you have driven that were manual transmission. I'm betting zero on both counts.

I've never driven a manual car of course, or off road, but for wet roads, isn't that why they have things like ABS?

Outrun on Master System has two manual speeds, just like all of the Arcade games. My four year old can't play it yet because he doesn't have the awareness to know when to shift into high. As a matter of fact, Yu Suzuki himself disagrees with you. Ponder on that for a moment.

I've got no problem with the original Outrun, two-speed manual where you just switch up once it goes into the red and then you leave it there is okay. I'd probably use automatic if it had it, but it doesn't matter much because it's not like I'm in the lower gear for more than a minute anyway... I was talking about Outrun 2/2006 there, anyway, of course.

Also, on another note, Outrun for SMS is a little harder in the shifting than other versions because there's no engine noise, so you can't hear when you're in the red part and have to actually look at the bar.

That's the story. Every one of A Black Falcon's threads devolves to bickering because he mentally spazzes out at the drop of a hat. And here we are, another rum thread. By all means ABF please create a Short Reviews thread on your Genesis collexion, the bile will positively drip from my computer screen.

Hah, as if it's all my fault? That's not true... but as for the latter comment, I did a review thread on the 32X several years ago. It is still posted here, unlike the Playstation one I did around that same time, which has vanished. But I guess the 32X doesn't count, for your comment here?

[sheath]

I've never driven a manual car of course, or off road, but for wet roads, isn't that why they have things like ABS?

You are only thinking of stopping ability. It is as 2D as your thinking when you judge the Virtua Fighter games as 2.5D because you can't walk around like an idiot instead of fighting.

You have never driven a manual transmission car, how long have you had a driver's license?

[A Black Falcon]

You are only thinking of stopping ability. It is as 2D as your thinking when you judge the Virtua Fighter games as 2.5D because you can't walk around like an idiot instead of fighting.

So what else are you talking about?

You have never driven a manual transmission car, how long have you had a driver's license?

Why would I have ever driven a manual car? As I said, under 10 percent of cars in the US are manual. Most people in this country have never driven a manual car -- I've seen statistics saying that a good 50-70% of Americans don't know how to drive manual. I'm one of them. You don't need to learn manual in order to get a license, if that's what you're asking. Maybe you do for a commercial (truckers') license, but not for a normal one.

Anyway, I first learned to drive around 12 years ago. I don't drive a lot, but for the last few years have on a fairly regular basis. My one memory of being in a manual car was when we went to England for vacation in 1998. We'd wanted an automatic of course, but they only had manuals, so my mom had to relearn manual. Cue several weeks of stuttering and regular stalls, as it'd been a long time since she'd driven manual (my dad refused to drive it at all, as he'd never driven manual before.).

[sheath]

So what else are you talking about?

I have already explained it in virtually the same way everybody else has. You are ignoring it because you have no idea what we are talking about. Down shifting slows a car down, it also gives more torque for acceleration. Automatic transmissions cannot down shift without a manual mode that, in my experience, takes longer than a manual shift would.

Why would I have ever driven a manual car? As I said, under 10 percent of cars in the US are manual. Most people in this country have never driven a manual car -- I've seen statistics saying that a good 50-70% of Americans don't know how to drive manual. I'm one of them. You don't need to learn manual in order to get a license, if that's what you're asking. Maybe you do for a commercial (truckers') license, but not for a normal one.

Because it is the best way to learn how to operate a vehicle and most vehicle training mandates it. When did you get your license again?

Anyway, I first learned to drive around 12 years ago. I don't drive a lot, but for the last few years have on a fairly regular basis. My one memory of being in a manual car was when we went to England for vacation in 1998. We'd wanted an automatic of course, but they only had manuals, so my mom had to relearn manual. Cue several weeks of stuttering and regular stalls, as it'd been a long time since she'd driven manual (my dad refused to drive it at all, as he'd never driven manual before.).

You honestly cannot love racing games like you claim to without loving driving as well. Your complete misunderstanding of manual transmission is creating too many logical fallacies for this charade to continue. You live in the States but don't drive much, that must really suck.

[A Black Falcon]

I have already explained it in virtually the same way everybody else has. You are ignoring it because you have no idea what we are talking about. Down shifting slows a car down, it also gives more torque for acceleration. Automatic transmissions cannot down shift without a manual mode that, in my experience, takes longer than a manual shift would.

The key words being "in your experience". I may not know much about cars, but I do know that I've read about how automatics are much better than they used to be, have caught up for the most part in fuel efficiency, etc.

Because it is the best way to learn how to operate a vehicle and most vehicle training mandates it. When did you get your license again?

I answered that second part in my last post, though I don't know why you keep asking it, but for the first part, that's obviously false, considering that I've never driven a manual car. You are NOT required to learn manual in order to get a license in the US. Maybe that's a state-by-state thing? Does wherever you learned to drive require (or used to require) you to learn manual (in an actual manual car, I mean, not just maybe something on the written test; I forget if that had anything about manual on it or not, but it's the actual driving that's most important), or something? That would be surprising, given how few cars are manuals.

You honestly cannot love racing games like you claim to without loving driving as well.

Uh, I do, though. I do not, and never have, enjoyed real-life driving, but I love racing games. Not realistic ones, of course. They're way too much like real-life driving, and I don't find that kind of thing enjoyable... I like fun, unrealistic racing games. And racing games are a genre I love and would rank high on a list of my favorite genres.

Your complete misunderstanding of manual transmission is creating too many logical fallacies for this charade to continue.

I think your misunderstandings of automatic are pretty significant as well...

You live in the States but don't drive much, that must really suck.

I drive when I have to.

[StarMist]

Hah, as if it's all my fault?

No, but that doesn't matter. Of course others will take exception when you post sacrilegious views of Sega's sacred cows. That just comes with the local territory and is not your fault. But the N64 thread intrinsically raised no Sega exceptions and it still wound up in more spiteful tangents than this one, and here we've gone from discussing Sega Rally to attempts at proving what percentage of the United States' populace drives a stick. Why? Because you recriminate every single real objection and a good many imagined. You're welcome to deem Sega Rally too hard and short on content. It is, but even if I disagreed you'd still be welcome. What doesn't matter one whit is how many Americans drive a stick or your personal experience with them, it's a balcony leap away from sense to link real world driving with actual gearshift motions at 65 mph to video game driving with button clicks at 150+ mph. In video games that's all you have to do, click a button, which is why you're getting such disgusted retorts. Then you go off with your twelve year old valley girl "Um, okay, whatever, that's INSANE" replies and it's no shock which way everything goes from there.
The preposterous thing about the whole mess is that Sega Rally can be driven exceedingly well in automatic--the only hang-up to that is the player doing it has to be exceptionally good at the game, so unless you can get your Desert laps under '54"00 you'd better try to learn to use a stick or shut up about the bloody game.

[j_factor]

The difference is that learning combos actually makes you better at fighting games, while learning manual doesn't make you better at driving, it just makes driving harder. Automatic will result in car control that's just as good, it's just not as hard.

Seriously? You complained about Sega Rally being too hard. Other people don't think it's that hard. You're using automatic, everyone else is using manual. You really don't think these things are related? Really?

Outrun 2006's an incredible game and my favorite PS2 racing game

Get an Xbox, bro.

[A Black Falcon]

Seriously? You complained about Sega Rally being too hard. Other people don't think it's that hard. You're using automatic, everyone else is using manual. You really don't think these things are related? Really?

I definitely do not think that that is the most important factor, no.

Get an Xbox, bro.

I have Outrun 2 for the Xbox and it's great, but 2006 for Xbox is uncommon and I haven't seen it. I do have the PC and PSP versions of 2006, though, but I've played the PS2 version the most because it's the first one I got. I loved that game, beat all three girlfriend modes and was well into Flagman 4 (the very long, 16-race stages were where I finally stopped, I think...).

No, but that doesn't matter. Of course others will take exception when you post sacrilegious views of Sega's sacred cows.

I assume that that's about something else, because disliking manual transmission certainly can't fall into this category... but anyway, in case you forgot, I love Sega Rally! It's a great game, and one of the best racing games on the Saturn.

That just comes with the local territory and is not your fault. But the N64 thread intrinsically raised no Sega exceptions and it still wound up in more spiteful tangents than this one, and here we've gone from discussing Sega Rally to attempts at proving what percentage of the United States' populace drives a stick. Why? Because you recriminate every single real objection and a good many imagined.

I respond when people say things, and others do the same. I'm no worse in that regard than the rest of you, except in that I actually write lists of reviews like this because I enjoy doing so.

You're welcome to deem Sega Rally too hard and short on content.

And an outstanding game despite that.

It is, but even if I disagreed you'd still be welcome. What doesn't matter one whit is how many Americans drive a stick or your personal experience with them, it's a balcony leap away from sense to link real world driving with actual gearshift motions at 65 mph to video game driving with button clicks at 150+ mph. In video games that's all you have to do, click a button, which is why you're getting such disgusted retorts. Then you go off with your twelve year old valley girl "Um, okay, whatever, that's INSANE" replies and it's no shock which way everything goes from there.

Oh come on, it's not just pressing a button. It's learning when you should press those shift buttons, particularly for whatever this use of shifting in cornering is. I have no idea how you'd do that. As I said I'm fine with the manual in something like Outrun where you just shift up when you hit the red and then stay at the top gear from then on, but the stuff you're talking about sound so much more complex, and for no good reason... even if the game gives a bonus to performance in manual cars, which I know some do, I don't want to have to deal with that complexity. There are some kinds of complexity I like in games, and other kinds I don't...

The preposterous thing about the whole mess is that Sega Rally can be driven exceedingly well in automatic--the only hang-up to that is the player doing it has to be exceptionally good at the game, so unless you can get your Desert laps under '54"00 you'd better try to learn to use a stick or shut up about the bloody game.

I think trying to learn better braking on the turns would probably be more useful for me than trying to learn manual.

On an entirely different Sega Rally note, I find the track names kind of odd. Desert's more forest than desert, Forest is more mountain than forest, and Mountain is ... um, a coastal town, pretty much. None of the names fit all that well. It's kind of odd.

[StarMist]

On an entirely different Sega Rally note, I find the track names kind of odd. Desert's more forest than desert, Forest is more mountain than forest, and Mountain is ... um, a coastal town, pretty much. None of the names fit all that well. It's kind of odd.

The desert's a savannah, the forest's an alpine foothill, and the mountain's what you said. It's Sega.

[Baloo]

Manual Transmission 4 Lyfe

[sheath]

Oh come on, it's not just pressing a button. It's learning when you should press those shift buttons, particularly for whatever this use of shifting in cornering is. I have no idea how you'd do that. As I said I'm fine with the manual in something like Outrun where you just shift up when you hit the red and then stay at the top gear from then on, but the stuff you're talking about sound so much more complex, and for no good reason... even if the game gives a bonus to performance in manual cars, which I know some do, I don't want to have to deal with that complexity. There are some kinds of complexity I like in games, and other kinds I don't...

It is actually very simple, and in racing it is overly simple because the clutch is automatic. The games have made the concept so absurdly simple that even a cursory knowledge of how transmissions work, and how down shifting helps, will enable the player. Let's look at this image for a minute or two, any racing fan should understand.



Look at the "ideal" and "late" turn in points. The "ideal" point is very possible with automatic transmission and standard braking. This is because you have so much more braking space before you actually turn. You see, while braking, especially with ABS, you can't steer as well or at all depending on the individual car.

Down shifting will slow the car down as much as braking in most turns, and will assist braking more than ABS for the hairpins. With down shifting you can fudge between the ideal and late turn in points and very easily gain on or pass faster cars in turns. This is because you can both decelerate and turn at nearly the same time. Then, when you see that open road ahead of you there is the option to down shift again for more torque or judge to stay in the same gear for take off. It is up to you, not the automatic transmission, how quickly you take off.

That isn't even getting into how many different ways there are to use manual transmissions for the initial take off in any race. That alone could be a seminar that makes or breaks most racing games.

[StarMist]

A Black Falcon = this is why you must learn to drive manual:

A long time ago I was driving about 80MPH in a 40MPH two lane road

Either because this is cool or to get out of his way.