Short reviews of all games I have for a system: Saturn

[StarMist]

@ A Black Falcon: SFIV is not 2.5D, it's straight up 2D with a polygonal build. In terms of dimensionality it plays like every other 2D SF game; there are lots more moves and combos but those are unrelated to its graphics engine.

[A Black Falcon]

@ A Black Falcon: SFIV is not 2.5D, it's straight up 2D with a polygonal build. In terms of dimensionality it plays like every other 2D SF game; there are lots more moves and combos but those are unrelated to its graphics engine.

2.5d means "2d gameplay, 3d polygonal graphics", though. What you are describing is the definition of the term! So yes, it is 2.5d. That's what 2.5d means. And that's why I was saying "2.75d" or something for Virtua Fighter and such, because those have actual 3d (movement/control) elements, but not as many as fully 3d fighting games.

You are the one that should "read some posts". I said others said you probably shouldn't be reviewing games. What I said was you don't know what you are talking about.

I know what I'm talking about, you're just obsessing over attacking me over what is, if you actually read my actual statements, is merely an argument over definitions. I don't think we disagree on facts anywhere near as much as you think -- you're mostly just griping about my terms. It's pretty ridiculous that you people keep saying this stuff.

You've reviewed games that you clearly didn't finish or even properly investigate all modes of play. You included wrong information in your reviews. When you were given undeniable proof that you were wrong, you still denied it. If you don't like the game, that's your opinion, but you've gotten facts wrong, too.

But what-ever, I don't care about your opinion anymore.

The only "wrong information" I know of that I wrote was that Fighting Vipers doesn't have 3d movement, which as you showed it does. That's a very, very easy mistake to make, given that the game and manual make no mention of it, and it's very hard to find any mention of it online either. I'd guess that the vast majority of people who have played Fighting Vipers have no clue that there's a hidden 3d movement command.

As for finishing games, these are "short reviews", not full reviews. They aren't meant to be completely comprehensive, just to say what I think about the games. The two things are definitely different. I've tried various titles for these threads, sometimes using "reviews" in it and sometimes not (the PS1 thread I did several years ago, that's now gone, was something like "some thoughts on all the PS1 games I own", or something like that), for instance. I would only do a full-length review of a game that I've played a lot of and have either finished or gotten very far in.

Or you could just call them 3D Fighters, which is what they are. The games are rendered with polygons and the gameplay and collision detection is entirely in 3D. Side Stepping is simply a move they didn't include because it's not a realistic move in a real fight, which is what Virtua Fighter attempts to mimic. To call them 2.5D or 2.75D is just completely retarded. Your argument is like someone else saying Phantasy Star isn't an RPG because there's no medieval setting. It's just plain stupid.

The idea of calling a game without 3d movement a fully 3d fighting game is absurd. Without 3d movement that you can directly control, they're not 3d. Remember what I said above -- "2d" "2.5d" or whatever versus "3d" is not something based just on graphics or gameplay, but both. A game is "2.5d" when the gameplay is 2d, but the graphics are 3d. Virtua Fighter (1 or 2) are games with some, but not all, of the elements of a 3d-gameplay fighting game.

This is tricky because "2d" versus "3d" can refer to either gameplay or graphics; it'd be better if there were different terms for the two categories, but there aren't really. For example Ballz 3D has 3d gameplay, but not 3d graphics; Street Fighter IV has 3d graphics, but not 3d gameplay. Virtua Fighter has 3d graphics, and sort of 3d, sort of 2d gameplay. It's a mix of both.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Even without side stepping the games have 3D movement. 2.5D is exactly what you said, 3D graphics, 2D Gameplay. That doesn't describe Virtua Fighter at all. There's no gray area in this like you are trying to claim. The game either has 3D gameplay or it doesn't. Virtua Fighter clearly has 3D Gameplay. You can position yourself in all 3 planes and it has an effect your moves. It's not like a 2D fighter where you can only move forward, backwards, up and down. In Virtua Fighter you can also position yourself left or right of your opponent. Just because that's done through executing moves and counters doesn't make it any less 3D.

[A Black Falcon]

Even without side stepping the games have 3D movement. 2.5D is exactly what you said, 3D graphics, 2D Gameplay. That doesn't describe Virtua Fighter at all. There's no gray area in this like you are trying to claim. The game either has 3D gameplay or it doesn't. Virtua Fighter clearly has 3D Gameplay. You can position yourself in all 3 planes and it has an effect your moves. It's not like a 2D fighter where you can only move forward, backwards, up and down. In Virtua Fighter you can also position yourself left or right of your opponent.

Apart from that I absolutely think that there is a grey area, this is true, yes.

Just because that's done through executing moves and counters doesn't make it any less 3D.

And that's where we disagree. That the 3d movement is done through moves only is the core of why I've said that I don't think of VF and such as fully 3d fighting games. It's not why I don't like the game -- I do like Dead or Alive quite a bit (I played it enough to unlock every costume in the PS1 version, I liked it a lot more than I was expecting going in...), which works pretty much the same way -- but it is why I don't think of those games as fully 3d, gameplay-wise, in the same way that games with 3d movement are.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

It's still working in 3D though. You are still moving your character in 3 Dimensions and your strategy depends entirely on your 3D position. You can't corner someone in the game and keep punching them to death. It may work in a 2D fighter, but in Virtua Fighter they'll counter and move to your side or possibly reverse it. This is a 3D mechanic, not a 2D one.

Toshinden as described numerous times is more akin to a 2.5D fighter since it's collision detection is done in 2D and the 3D space has no impact on your strategy. All it adds is a side step dodge move. Your position along the Z-Axis has no impact on your strategy or moves. In Virtua Fighter your position along the Z-Axis actually matters.

[j_factor]

Seeing you two argue is like watching two brick walls.

[Moirai]

In my opinion, the only thing that determines whether or not you can call a game 2D or 3D is the graphics, not the gameplay.

[sheath]

^ That's not an opinion, it is a fact. Virtua Fighter's gameplay actually being fully 3D also is what makes this entire discussion so inane. I guess the internet just exists so people can fight over benign topics and kids can get the attention they "need" even if it means being wrong all the time.

[MrSega]

What happened to the other half? Did Naka go Baka and forget there was two CPU's in there? I want to be entertained. So please explain.

Naka was not involved in 3D Blast's development. He personally HATED the game. "Naka The Baka"? Naw, I'll defend him. He resented Stolar, was unhappy about the direction of Sega of America and strongly felt that Sonic needed a MUCH NEEDED two year break. I think he was right.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

I have a question. How far up your ass do you reach to pull this shit out?

[sheath]

He's not pulling it from down there, he is directly tied to the wealth of human consciousness.

[TVC 15]

Naka was not involved in 3D Blast's development. He personally HATED the game. "Naka The Baka"? Naw, I'll defend him. He resented Stolar, was unhappy about the direction of Sega of America and strongly felt that Sonic needed a MUCH NEEDED two year break. I think he was right.

Huh? I asked how Sonic 3D blast and its 3D stages only used half of the Saturn's 3D capabilities. I know Naka and Sonic Team (Japan) only coded the 3D sections for the saturn versions, Travellers tales did the rest, its on the bloody intro. Also the credits for 3D blast actually state Sonic Team did have some further direction in the design process. Your like a spambot that spews a heady mix of broken wikipedia information and other peoples opinions.

I would like to read this interview where Naka declared his hatred for 3D blast. So link please. Apparantly he hated 3D blast so much, Sonic team chose to work with travellers tales again to create Sonic R. Oh...

[MrSega]

Huh? I asked how Sonic 3D blast and its 3D stages only used half of the Saturn's 3D capabilities. I know Naka and Sonic Team (Japan) only coded the 3D sections for the saturn versions, Travellers tales did the rest, its on the bloody intro. Also the credits for 3D blast actually state Sonic Team did have some further direction in the design process. Your like a spambot that spews a heady mix of broken wikipedia information and other peoples opinions.

I would like to read this interview where Naka declared his hatred for 3D blast. So link please. Apparantly he hated 3D blast so much, Sonic team chose to work with travellers tales again to create Sonic R. Oh...

First of all, Naka was NOT involved in 3D Blast or "Sonic R". Naka gave Traveller's Tales permission to design an engine based of "Sonic World" using rendering instead of sqaures for simple polygons and environments. He also expressed his personal like for its soundtrack and gave Sega of Europe his blessing for the project.

Second, No Naka didn't design the Saturn 3DBlast special stage. That was actually done at Sega Technical Institute towards the end of Xtreme(BTW, I didn't think the game's concept was that good to begin with.).

http://sonic-cult.org/dispart.php?ca...ubid=1&artid=1

It was designed by two of Naka's former American students: Peter Morawiec and Adrian Stevens.


Like I said, in 1995, Yuji Naka was not interested in developing a new Sonic game, he felt the series needed a two year break and from the get go HATED Xtreme and since he had returned to Japan, was more interested in newer Sonic Team unrelated projects.


One of the last ditch efforts for Holiday 1996 was to seek Naka permission to use "NIGHTS" engine for Xtreme, he said "NO".

To kinda explain the internal civil war between Sega of America and SEGA of Japan, I'll post an audio interview Eric Robert Grey founder of Sonic-Cult and former Sega of America software tester gave with Xtreme's Executive Producer Michael Wallis dated mid 2003:

http://www.sonic-cult.org/download.p...nic_Xtreme.zip

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Sonic 3D Blast was made before Sonic World was even programmed...

Also here's the credits for the Saturn Special Stages:

Special Stage Development

Game Designers (SOJ): Takashi Iizuka, Daisuke Mori
Programmers (SOJ): Tetsu Katano, Yasuhiro Takahashi, Atsutomo Nakagawa, Kazuhiko Hattori
Artists (SOJ): Kazuyuki Hoshino, Yuji Uekawa, Nobuhiko Honda, Shinichi Higashi, You Nishiyama, Sachiko Kawamura

Any of these names look familiar? They are all Japanese members of Sonic Team.

And Sonic R had quite a bit of Sonic Team members involved. Yuji Naka was also the Producer for the game.

[TVC 15]

First of all, Naka was NOT involved in 3D Blast or "Sonic R". Naka gave Traveller's Tales permission to design an engine based of "Sonic World" using rendering instead of sqaures for simple polygons and environments. He also expressed his personal like for its soundtrack and gave Sega of Europe his blessing for the project.

Second, No Naka didn't design the Saturn 3DBlast special stage. That was actually done at Sega Technical Institute towards the end of Xtreme(BTW, I didn't think the game's concept was that good to begin with.).

http://sonic-cult.org/dispart.php?ca...ubid=1&artid=1

It was designed by two of Naka's former American students: Peter Morawiec and Adrian Stevens.


Like I said, in 1995, Yuji Naka was not interested in developing a new Sonic game, he felt the series needed a two year break and from the get go HATED Xtreme and since he had returned to Japan, was more interested in newer Sonic Team unrelated projects.


One of the last ditch efforts for Holiday 1996 was to seek Naka permission to use "NIGHTS" engine for Xtreme, he said "NO".

To kinda explain the internal civil war between Sega of America and SEGA of Japan, I'll post an audio interview Eric Robert Grey founder of Sonic-Cult and former Sega of America software tester gave with Xtreme's Executive Producer Michael Wallis dated mid 2003:

http://www.sonic-cult.org/download.p...nic_Xtreme.zip

I don't understand why the heck you've just posted that link.

I'am, as are a great deal of posters of this site completely aware of Sonic Xtreme's tortured development, Chris Coffson getting Pnuemonia after putting extra long hours working on the engine. We all pretty much know about Stolar getting the nights engine, and Yuji Naka going apeshit about it.

None of this stuff is new to a lot of us here, most us are quite well informed, passionate and dare say rabid about Sega. Your not going to get extra brownie points for sharing this stuff.

I will adress your willing ignorance point by point:

1. Firstly Sonic R was an in-house engine designed by Travellers Tales, that was orginally a proof of concept for a Saturn racing game, there is no similarity to Sonic World or Sonic R's engine as far as I'm aware, other than assets and music provided by Sega Europe and Sonic Team in japan.
   Easy to find Interview with Jon Burton, Travellers Tales http://info.sonicretro.org/Jon_Burto...October,_1997)
   
2. Secondly that link you provided from Sonic Cult offers information about two 3D engines Peter Moriwac and Adrian Stevens created, it even says in the article the engines they created were never used in Sonic 3D blast.
   
   

   "Following that, there was a slight chance of salvaging our tech and assets to create a bonus game for the Travelers Tales developed Sonic 3D Blast, although we will never know just how seriously this was ever considered. Nonetheless, we quickly whipped out a prototype, which we called Sonic Pool, but it never went past that."

   From Peter's own mouth INSIDE THE ARTICLE. Did you not read it fully? Or did you decide to bend the facts to prove your own point?
   
   Also...
   
   (Taken from Sonic Retro)
   
   Special Stage Development
   Game Designers (SOJ): Takashi Iizuka, Daisuke Mori
   Programmers (SOJ): Tetsu Katano, Yasuhiro Takahashi, Atsutomo Nakagawa, Kazuhiko Hattori
   
   Hmm? Japanese coders.... Who also feature in the credits for Nights into Dreams? They couldn't have been from y'know Sonic Team?
   
   Next time you respond please read through my points, and if you having anything to refute please check your own sources, don't make yourself the butt end of peoples jokes here through misinformation. I would like to believe however your not deceptive just incredibly misinformed, you must step outside these Sega fantasies that have no basis in fact.