Short reviews of all games I have for a system: Saturn

[TrekkiesUnite118]

WE don't need a new category. YOU need to come to terms with the fact that you are wrong.

I don't dislike sidestepping, but I'm not going to call VF1 and 2 2.5D fighters because they lack it. Movement in these games is NOT on a 2D plane. You can still position yourself to your enemies side or back, you can roll while on the ground, collision is calculated based on the position on all 3 axises. The games are 3D.

Toshinden is more 2.5D, as that game is basically Street Fighter Alpha 3 with everyone having Kens roll dodge move. Your Z-Axis position doesn't matter at all in that game. It does matter in Virtua Fighter. That alone makes Virtua Fighter more 3D.

[A Black Falcon]

WE don't need a new category. YOU need to come to terms with the fact that you are wrong.

I'm not, though. They are different categories.

I don't dislike sidestepping, but I'm not going to call VF1 and 2 2.5D fighters because they lack it. Movement in these games is NOT on a 2D plane.

It is for the actual movement controls on the d-pad.

You can still position yourself to your enemies side or back,

Back, sure, by jumping over them. Side? Maybe, if you memorize the move set and are in exactly the right position, but that's not the same as just being able to move there. VF1's way is so incredibly restricting!

you can roll while on the ground,

It's so unbelievably annoying that they put in 3d movement when you're knocked down, but not when you're standing...

collision is calculated based on the position on all 3 axises. The games are 3D.

You do not decide whether a game is 2.5d, 3d, or whatever based on its collision detection. I'm sure there are strictly side-view 2.5d games with some sort of 3d collision system, and that does not make those 3d games. Is a 2.5d platformer which also has multiple layers or lets you shoot into the screen or something 3d? Is one where your shots go straight, so they would not curve if the level path does? I know some games are like that, but they are absolutely 2.5d; minor 3d elements like that don't make the game as a whole 3d.

Toshinden is more 2.5D, as that game is basically Street Fighter Alpha 3 with everyone having Kens roll dodge move. Your Z-Axis position doesn't matter at all in that game. It does matter in Virtua Fighter. That alone makes Virtua Fighter more 3D.

That's completely crazy, both in calling Toshinden like SFA3, a game which is like a hundred times better than it is, and in calling it 2.5d, which it isn't... and obviously your Z-position matters, in that that's what determines if the attack hits or not. Sure, it's a weak effort at a 3d fighter, and isn't that good of a game, but that it was a very early 3d fighter with 3d movement is nice, even if in gameplay it's really not that good.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

The Z-Axis matters in Toshinden in that it switches your state into "I AM DODGING YOU!" the same way Ken's forward roll or Akuma/Dark Ryu's shadow moves work in Street Fighter Alpha 3. Your side stepping doesn't give you any advantage or allow you to execute new and different moves. The game automatically repositions you to the 2D plane.

I can't think of a single 2.5D game that would need to do collision detection using Hit Cubes as opposed to hit Boxes. Possibly NiGHTS, but NiGHTS switches between 3D platforming and 2.5D gliding seamlessly, so that makes sense. Something like Street Fighter IV or Sonic 4 most likely uses 2D hitboxes though.

In a real fight you can't just move to your enemies side. Your enemy is going to follow and match your movement to remain eye contact. The only way to get to their side is to counter them and catch them off guard. Virtua Fighter embraces this idea.

Again, just because you suck at Virtua Figther doesn't mean the game is 2.5D. You're insulting the game by calling it that.

[j_factor]

Apparently Ballz is a true 3d game and Virtua Fighter is not. All this time, everyone has been giving credit to the wrong game for starting 3d fighters.

[A Black Falcon]

Nice try, but Virtua Fighter predates Ballz 3D. And Ballz 3D does have 3d movement, but it doesn't have polygons, which matters a lot as far as gameplay goes in this genre...

[zetastrike]

[Bradcap1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

[sheath]

It's okay that Black Falcon has unilaterally declared the first 3D fighter a 2D game. Ka-Ge-Ki on Genesis has 3D walk-around gameplay, so it is a more true 3D fighter than Tekken or Virtua Fighter by our illustrious OP's definition.

[A Black Falcon]

Just go read my last post, I already answered that point and it is of course false. Isometric is a sort of 3d, but it's not the same as fully polygonal environments and characters...

[NeoZeedeater]

Really there's no defensible reason for this Saturn version to not let you save, except for that Sega, when this game came out in 1996, still hadn't grasped the idea that games should all actually have saving in them, at least in password form, better on-cart or in-system. Nintendo had gotten that back in about 1992-1993, but for Sega, I'd say it wasn't until '97 or '98 that they finally got the hint... it's annoying.

I don't really like Sonic 3D Blast much myself but the review was good until this part. You keep saying this about Nintendo and Sega during this time period but it's not really a fair analysis. Sega released plenty of games with save functions from 1992-1996. And almost all the ones that didn't have them were designed to be played in one sitting (like many games were back then).

I agree Sonic 3D Blast could benefit from a save function and doesn't have one but it's a rare exception like Nintendo and Mario Clash.

[sheath]

Just go read my last post, I already answered that point and it is of course false. Isometric is a sort of 3d, but it's not the same as fully polygonal environments and characters...

But, the characters can walk around each other. I don't get it.

[Bradcap1]

Just go read my last post, I already answered that point and it is of course false. Isometric is a sort of 3d, but it's not the same as fully polygonal environments and characters...

Just go back and watch Zetastrike's last post...

[A Black Falcon]

What you people are really proving here (with the 3d fighting games thing) is that it's much harder to accurately classify games than you seem to think.

I don't really like Sonic 3D Blast much myself but the review was good until this part. You keep saying this about Nintendo and Sega during this time period but it's not really a fair analysis. Sega released plenty of games with save functions from 1992-1996.

On the Genesis, Sega only put save functions in RPGs, sports games, Sonic 3, and that is pretty much it. It's very much a genre-based thing -- if it's not an RPG or sports game, and it's from Sega, and released on a Sega platform up to the early Saturn days, it's unlikely to have saving. Some did, sure, but most did not.

In comparison, excepting most puzzle games and some lightgun games, Nintendo put batteries in pretty much every single first-party game on the platform. Sega did release more games overall, but still, there's a huge, huge difference between the two. The same is true on handhelds too, where after 1992 (where Kirby's Dream Land didn't have saving) Nintendo released almost no non-puzzle games without saving, I don't believe, while Sega was still releasing no-saving games up until they dropped the GG in 1997.

Or to focus just on platformers, all Nintendo platformers after 1992, and all on consoles after 1990, have battery save (unless you count Mario Clash as a platformer, but it's really an arcade action game). In comparison, very few Sega platformers had saving until 1996-1997; for 1990 to 1995, the only Sega platfomers with saving are Sonic 3, Knuckles Chaotix, Bug! (though it has a continue limit), and the password system in Tails' Adventure.

And almost all the ones that didn't have them were designed to be played in one sitting (like many games were back then).

That's a bad excuse; when a game is several hours long, you should be able to save. And yes, the lack of saving in games is my biggest problem with 8 and 16 bit console games, I would say. That it's the only NES platformer with battery save is probably one of the reasons why I love Kirby's Adventure...

I agree Sonic 3D Blast could benefit from a save function and doesn't have one but it's a rare exception like Nintendo and Mario Clash.

You're right about Mario Clash, but that game was very much an exception. That's the only first-party Nintendo release I can think of after 1992 that isn't a puzzle or sports game and doesn't have battery save... unless Super Scope 6 doesn't, not sure. The game looks like it should have had saving, with how there are like 100+ floors and you have to play anything after floor 30 all in one sitting, like the worst idea ever for the Virtual Boy, though, so maybe it was just a bit of cost-cutting... it's too bad, it's a good game, it's just too long to actually get through, I think.

But really, it's NOT a rare exception. Not at all. Other Sega platformers that have no saving released in 1996 include Marsupilami, Bugs Bunny in Double Trouble, Vectorman 2, Spider-Man: Web of Fire,Sonic Blast (GG), and X-Men: Mojo World (GG), as well as Sonic 3D Blast (SAT/GEN); only NiGHTS and Bug Too! actually let you save. In contrast, all four first or second-party Nintendo platformers that year (Mario 64, Kirby Super Star, DKC3, DKL2) have saving. Nintendo also published the third party title Maui Mallard in Cold Shadow that year in the US on SNES; it has password save. In 1997 Sega's only platformer was the no-saving but super-ultra-short GG The Lost World game, but starting from '98 they finally were including saving in all their new platformers.

As for earlier years, 5 of 6 Nintendo platformers from 1995 save (5 of 5, if you don't count Mario Clash as one), all via battery. While with Sega... well, 10 I know do (4 via save files, 6 via password), 12 don't, and I'm not sure about Clockwork Knight 2. The ratios are similar for 1991 through 1994 -- Sega released piles of platformers each year, with Sonic 3 and Sonic CD being the only one with save files in those four years and few even had passwords, while Nintendo released a few, most with battery save. Actually, going by my numbers, Sega released more platformers than Nintendo every year from '87 to '96... then Nintendo released more than Sega every year from '97 to '05. Numbers since then have been more even. I can understand why Sega didn't want to put batteries in every one of those 20+ platformers they released in 1991 and 1993-1995, (they released 12 in '90 and 16 in '92) but they could have at least had password systems. And later major ones like Ristar (Genesis; the GG one does have passwords), Sonic 3D Blast (Gen/Sat), Astal (Sat), and such have no excuse for why they don't have on-cart/to-system saving. Sure, they don't have passwords either, which is awful, but major releases like those should have save files. It's much easier to understand why the obviously lower-budget licensed stuff doesn't have on-cart saving because of cost (though again they could have had password systems no problem), but with those there is no excuse.

Anyway, I have a list of all Sega and Nintendo platformers I know of, sorted by year, if someone wants me to post it in a thread.

Also, that the PC version of Sonic 3D Blast did add in saving says that they did think saving would be good in that game, but just didn't bother in the slightly earlier Saturn release...

[TrekkiesUnite118]

It's not difficult to categorize at all. Virtua Fighter is a 3D Fighter. Plain and simple. The game is done with 3D Graphics, the gameplay happens on a 3D plane regardless of what you try to claim, the collision is calculated based on 3D Coordinates, your position along the Z axis matter and has an effect on your moves. That's what a 3D fighter entails.

While yes you can't side step, that doesn't mean you fight on a 2D plane. You fight on a 3D plane and position yourself with counters and moves instead of side stepping. If you were fighting on a 2D plane it would be like Street Fighter IV. There's no gray area on this, it's a cut and dry, clear as day concept. If you can position yourself along all 3 axes you are fighting on a 3D plane, plain and simple.

[NeoZeedeater]

That's a bad excuse; when a game is several hours long, you should be able to save.

I agree but Sega's non-saving platformers weren't several hours long.

And yes, the lack of saving in games is my biggest problem with 8 and 16 bit console games, I would say.

I understand the convenience factor. One of the best things about modern gaming (and emulating old stuff) is being able to stop and resume if you don't have a lot of time in a row to play. I just think it's a little unfair to apply that idea to something like Genesis Ristar or Sonic Chaos when it was common practice during that time period for games of those lengths to be "one sitting" experiences (as opposed to games the length of DKC or SMW).

I guess we're going in circles with this topic, though.