Service Games: The Rise and Fall of SEGA

[Da_Shocker]

Yeah, as far as quality titles go, at least Sega of America was making games which actually used the CD power (even if just for FMV a lot of the time). Sega of Japan's Sega CD library was, as I've said before, really, really weak.

Weren't they churning out mainly text based adventure games and rpgs mainly? I think Devastator and there was another decent side scroller that should've been released here.

[retrospiel]

I know you hate it, but that Western-games-centric focus was one of the major reasons why the Genesis and Sega CD succeeded in the West.

"I know you hate it"...


I disagree with your statement as you worded it. Let's differentiate by summarizing the situation with a few keywords here:

NES hardware started to look old by 1990, NES market flooded with terrible Acclaim/LJN software, Nintendo was seen as equal to the Japanese mafia, Sega had a good reputation among [what we now call alpha-]gamers thanks to the Master System and early Genesis library, awesome sports games, Electronic Arts, Sega was seen as more American than Nintendo among the press (not necessarily the customers), state of the art arcade conversions, quality software made in Japan with American icons such as Mickey Mouse and Michael Jackson (this marriages were likely arranged under Katz at SOA but there's no evidence for this), Sega builds more momentum over time, Sonic the Hedgehog gets released, perfect timing, more quality games from Japan, almost no US developed software yet (aside of sports games and high quality games by Electronic Arts).

1992, see previous post

FMV games may be hated now, but then they were popular and people wanted them.

Can you back this up with sales ?

Those Western games were also popular and were marketed because they sold and interested consumers more than the Japanese lineup

Sure. Everyone bought their consoles to play Art Alive, not Ghouls 'n Ghosts, Castle of Illusion, or Phantasy Star II.

Fun fact: Genesis took off in 1991 but there were no Western games to speak of until by the end of 1992:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...ega-of-America

Your suggestions, as always, are basically "I hate everything SoA/Western on the Genesis", which is even more biased than Sam Pettus, I would say, by a significant margin.

...Look: I am not writing a book pretending to be the definite history with made up shit about SOA. I posted a list on a public forum free for anyone to read or verify.

There is proof for ANY point on that list.


I'd check your prejudices towards me and Pettus. Instead of dabbling into personal offenses (which I consider above sentence to be) I'd check your facts.

Also in point one you kind of coutneract your own first point by admitting that yes there were good Western games too

The problem never were the good games (of which I listed almost ALL of them, sadly), the problem were the bad games. Think of Nintendo churning out NES games that could compete in their lack of quality with Acclaim/LJN during the NES days. Think of Nintendo publishing N64 games on or below the level of early third party PS1 games. Sega had built up their success over many many years, it took them only two years to ruin everything.

point 6 is so minor that it's irrelevant, and point 9 is a somewhat minor gripe

1. I only listed stuff that came to my mind, and 2. only stuff we have evidence for

If you consider these minor then let me tell you that back then things mattered. And believe me that if you were to see Nintendo struggling today, you'd bang your head to a wall if they'd release the new Mario games as "Harry the Fat Plumper" (sic). It is so stupid to do something like that, I really don't get why anyone could let this pass.

And no, they did not only change the story in SOR3. That would not have been a problem at all indeed.

Again minor points now but things like these were important back then, and things like these are symptoms and the result of a shift in policy Sega of America made AFTER they hit the jackpot. So instead of doing nothing and going on with what made them successful they did a 360 and in the end drove the company into the ground.

And again, I do have evidence for this sentence. Check the interview with the guy behind Kid Chameleon who said they left Sega in 1992 because "of a huge change in the company's direction". He mentioned how it went from a small group of enthusiast under Katz to a big mindless corporation under Kalinske.

Sega of Japan wasn't any better with money

Again, can you back this up with numbers, or examples of some sort ?

and for point 13, a Saturn version happened eventually...

Very funny.

Yeah, we follow his plan for the generation and the SNES would have defeated the Genesis much earlier.

What plan? - What the fuck are you even talking about?

[gamevet]

The Genesis did have western developed games early on. I saw a lot of Amiga ports on the system.

[retrospiel]

That was Electronic Arts (mentioned twice in my previous post). They made really good games during their 16-bit days and I would agree that they did indeed play a role in the Genesis' early success.

[sheath]

Well if you read journalistic histories like I know you all do the licensed sports games was the only thing that endeared US gamers (are we calling them alpha now?) to the Genesis. I don't usually see Electronic Arts games described as very well made/ported and I have never seen a discussion on their Amiga ports being even one of the reasons why somebody bought a Genesis.

As for Western games pre-Sonic, I guess Rambo III is a SoJ made game but it has Western licensed title all over it. Arnold Palmer Golf and Tommy Lasorda Baseball are also rebranded Jpn games I know now but I didn't know that then. I also played World Championship Soccer as much as anything else from 1989, hey I liked it better than soccer games I had played by then on the NES and didn't have a soccer game for Master System. But that one doesn't belong to any one region obviously.

In 1990 I rented and played the hell out of Budoken, can't say I ever saw Battle Squadron, Bimini Run, on a shelf though. I did note that Tengen brought what looked like a great conversion of Cyberball but never rented it or bought it until this year actually. Dick Tracy is probably another SoJ developed Western licensed game, man I was impressed with that one though it is part of my permanent library. Same goes for Ghostbusters. Joe Montana and John Madden Footballs were a big deal in 1990, they were all I could get my brothers to play besides Golden Axe. Storm Lord was of course the most hyped shovelware of the year. I was very hyped by Sword of Sodan and even found some merit in the gameplay, but all I wanted was combat simulators no matter how clunky they felt. Technocop drew my attention for a while as well.

Then of course 1991 would need its own post for Western developed games. Though I think Japanese third parties and Sega probably took that year away in any best of list, Tengen, Accolade, Arena, Ballistic, Mentrix, Razorsoft, Tengen and even Electronic Arts got a lot of playtime from me. I always had the impression that those games were more what NES fans were looking for than anything Sega of Japan developed.

[A Black Falcon]

"I know you hate it"...


I disagree with your statement as you worded it. Let's differentiate by summarizing the situation with a few keywords here:

NES hardware started to look old by 1990, NES market flooded with terrible Acclaim/LJN software, Nintendo was seen as equal to the Japanese mafia, Sega had a good reputation among [what we now call alpha-]gamers thanks to the Master System and early Genesis library, awesome sports games, Electronic Arts, Sega was seen as more American than Nintendo among the press (not necessarily the customers), state of the art arcade conversions, quality software made in Japan with American icons such as Mickey Mouse and Michael Jackson (this marriages were likely arranged under Katz at SOA but there's no evidence for this), Sega builds more momentum over time, Sonic the Hedgehog gets released, perfect timing, more quality games from Japan, almost no US developed software yet (aside of sports games and high quality games by Electronic Arts).

The NES market may have been flooded with games, both good and bad, but that was only a sign of how dominant it was... by 1991 it was finally fading, but in 1989-1990, it utterly destroyed the Genesis in sales. Having lots of games being released for your platform, both good games and bad games, is a sign of success.

As for the rest of that, sure, those things helped Sega, first among the hardcore who wanted next-gen systems early, and then, particularly thanks to Sonic and EA, among the mass market. Kalinske's Sonic packin was also essential of course, and the Sonic 2 packin the next year as well.

Can you back this up with sales ?

2.5 million Sega CD systems sold in the US alone, and FMV games dominated sales on the platform. The PC and 3DO also had lots of FMV games at that time. They were inarguably popular.

Sure. Everyone bought their consoles to play Art Alive, not Ghouls 'n Ghosts, Castle of Illusion, or Phantasy Star II.

None of those games were system sellers for most people.

Fun fact: Genesis took off in 1991 but there were no Western games to speak of until by the end of 1992:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...ega-of-America

There were Western games, just from EA. Sega's Western development took a bit longer to start up, but in the Genesis's peak (1992-1993) they were certainly important.

The problem never were the good games (of which I listed almost ALL of them, sadly),

That's your opinion. Plenty of people did like the Jurassic Park games, for example, among others.

the problem were the bad games. Think of Nintendo churning out NES games that could compete in their lack of quality with Acclaim/LJN during the NES days. Think of Nintendo publishing N64 games on or below the level of early third party PS1 games. Sega had built up their success over many many years, it took them only two years to ruin everything.

It is true Sega released some average stuff, that's true. Those licensed games weren't exactly always great. But they sold well and were profitable, so clearly the effort paid off, even if the quality was mixed. And some of the games are good... sure, Taz-Mania for instance isn't very good, but Desert Speedtrap? That one's fun.

1. I only listed stuff that came to my mind, and 2. only stuff we have evidence for

If you consider these minor then let me tell you that back then things mattered. And believe me that if you were to see Nintendo struggling today, you'd bang your head to a wall if they'd release the new Mario games as "Harry the Fat Plumper" (sic). It is so stupid to do something like that, I really don't get why anyone could let this pass.

Sega didn't do anything like that though. Changing SoR3 is not comparable to that.

And no, they did not only change the story in SOR3. That would not have been a problem at all indeed.

Again minor points now but things like these were important back then, and things like these are symptoms and the result of a shift in policy Sega of America made AFTER they hit the jackpot. So instead of doing nothing and going on with what made them successful they did a 360 and in the end drove the company into the ground.

Doing nothing won't necessarily hold your position! They got that position mostly thanks to EA and Sonic, and helped hold it with Western games. There is absolutely no evidence behind what you're saying, only your own incredibly biased opinions. Sega peaked in 1992-1993, and the Western games were a significant part of why.

As for Streets of Rage 3, that it's so uncommon and pricey now suggests that people didn't care about the game nearly as much as you say... it obviously didn't sell nearly as well as the first two, and I doubt very much that that was all because of the questionable localization. Fighting games were the in thing by the time that game released in 1994, not beat 'em ups anymore. That is probably why Golden Axe III was left as Sega Channel-only here, as well (unfortunately, I wish we'd gotten it... ah well).

And again, I do have evidence for this sentence. Check the interview with the guy behind Kid Chameleon who said they left Sega in 1992 because "of a huge change in the company's direction". He mentioned how it went from a small group of enthusiast under Katz to a big mindless corporation under Kalinske.

Uh, Sega was becoming successful thanks to Kalinske's good moves (such as the Sonic packin). If Katz had managed to succeed like Kalinske did, then it'd have been Katz growing the company, of course. When your system is selling that well, of course you expand, it's the obvious thing to do when you're successful and need to satisfy a larger, growing, and now mass-market audience, something Katz didn't have to do because Sega wasn't on that level when he was there.

Again, can you back this up with numbers, or examples of some sort ?

Sega of Japan was, ultimately, in control, and approved all of that stuff Sega of America was doing. Sega of Japan was also responsible for very stupid decisions such as the rushed Saturn launch, the original idea for the 32X, etc. Those ended up losing Sega lots of money.

Very funny.

It did.

What plan? - What the fuck are you even talking about?

Having many fewer Western games and a focus on only Japanese stuff, I mean. That's a plan for failure; Sonic was a hit, but most of that other Japanese stuff wasn't that big of a deal beyond the hardcore. Jurassic Park and such were huge back then, important stuff to keep the Genesis's momentum going.