Service Games: The Rise and Fall of SEGA

[lightofhonor]

Hi everyone,

I'm the contributing author of this book and I'd love to hear any ways to improve the accuracy of what is written. Are there specific examples of what I can change or add that would make this a better overall work?

Thanks.

[A Black Falcon]

And you think the Japanese decided the West could do without FM ? I would think SOA is responsible. For they decide what they release and what they won't.

- Neither of us got any sources to back it up however so let's stick with what can be proven through reliable sources.




It's not about hardware inaccuracies. It's about Pettus reproducing conversations that never happened as if he was there in that very room and at that very time when they didn't happen.

It's about building a shrine to Kalinske and SOA and portraying whoever happened to work at SOJ from 1990 to 2002 as pure evil, out to destroy the awesomeness that is Sega of America.

Your "SOA is evil, SOJ is good" view is far more skewed than his, though. His is much closer to the truth...

I understand what you mean, but I have to disagree. Tom Kalinske and good old uncle Bernie (Stollar) bumped heads with Sega of Japan on so many occasions.
SOJ did not want SOA to have Sonic as a Genesis "pack in" game.
SOJ was against the Dreamcast $199 launch price.
Kalinske wanted the N64 hardware and SOJ was totally against it (and maybe that worked out for the better).
No FM module for the US Master System (so many non Japanese SMS games had FM sound, but we were never given the chance to enjoy until recently through the home brew community).

I could go on and on. Like I said before, when Sega dumped the DC, I went through a severe gaming crisis. Classic gaming is what made me bounce back. I don't know about you guys, but for me back in the day, Sega defined the very notion of gaming. Sure I had a Turbografx/Duo, SNES and 7800, etc., but for me back then, Sega was the authority on gaming. One of Sega's biggest failures was the 32x and in my opinion Knuckles Chaotix and Blackthorne, Virtua Racing, Afterburner and Space Harrier (better versions of AB and SH exist on the Saturn) are the only worthy titles, everything else is bargain bin fodder at best.

I appreciate all the feedback, I really do. I'll probably end up getting the book and just look past the alleged hardware inaccuracies.

I agree of course. I don't think the internal fights stuff was exaggerat4ed at all, everything we've hear corroborates that the split did indeed exist, and was a huge issue. Pettus is far from the only source proving the truth of that. And in the end, it was a major factor in Sega's demise. You could make a very good argument that it was THE major factor, that the other ones wouldn't have been the issues they were without it underlying them.

[sheath]

Hi everyone,

I'm the contributing author of this book and I'd love to hear any ways to improve the accuracy of what is written. Are there specific examples of what I can change or add that would make this a better overall work?

Thanks.

The spec sheets for most of the pages need to be revised and cited. The comments about internal squabbles and decisions need to be footnoted. The writing needs to be cleaned up so we know what information comes from a primary source, a secondary source, or the author(s).

I have started my own work on the topic using Chicago style citation methods. It isn't as intriguing as the Segabase pages, but I imagine if I start cross referencing the primary sources with Sheff, Kent and Pettus it might take on a new light. I have been struggling with the question of how all of this affects American History as a whole, and am currently stumped.

[lightofhonor]

The spec sheets for most of the pages need to be revised and cited. The comments about internal squabbles and decisions need to be footnoted. The writing needs to be cleaned up so we know what information comes from a primary source, a secondary source, or the author(s).

I have started my own work on the topic using Chicago style citation methods. It isn't as intriguing as the Segabase pages, but I imagine if I start cross referencing the primary sources with Sheff, Kent and Pettus it might take on a new light. I have been struggling with the question of how all of this affects American History as a whole, and am currently stumped.

Are you basing this off of what is online or what was printed in the book? Some of the specs were already updated, but if you have a more direct or accurate source then these can be updated again if necessary. As for the other suggestions a lot of them would require a complete rewrite, something that would destroy much of what has already been written. I understand that a lot of people don't really agree with what Pettus wrote, but I am not in a position to make major changes to what work that he did. Update I can do, maybe even some additions, but I have my hands tied with rewriting major sections of Segabase. If you were to have a list of Corrections that could be made then that could be added or fixed to what we have. We want to make the book as accurate as possible but with out erasing a lot of what Pettus has done.

Any assistance anyone wants for a provide would be gladly accepted, but if not we will do the best that we can with the 0 dollar budget we have. :-) But remember, we are writing a book and not a wikipedia page.

[Melf]

It's about building a shrine to Kalinske and SOA and portraying whoever happened to work at SOJ from 1990 to 2002 as pure evil, out to destroy the awesomeness that is Sega of America.

We've been over this before, but I don't think it's this bad. Even the president of Sega Europe confirms that SOJ often didn't listen to the particulars of its subsidiaries' markets. He even cites it as the reason he left Sega. Again, the problem is that no one on the Japanese side is willing to talk. Call it "Japanese corporate culture" or call it shamed silence - we could be here all night debating. The fact is that multiple people from America and Europe all mention problems with Japanese management.

Trust me, if I could get interviews with Nakayama, Sato, or any other SOJ person, I absolutely would love to hear their side of things. The fact is, none of them are willing to talk.

Sorry I don't buy it. Sega should have done everything possible to sway retailers, publishers, and consumers away from Nintendo's illegal monopoly. Its all about managerial, marketing, and legal competency. The FM module could have definitely helped in some way. And what's this about Americans being tone deaf? Maybe little kids, but not the teen and adult gaming crowd.

Have you read on the absolute hold Nintendo had on publishers and retailers? How it basically threatened "chip shortages" and no retail merchandise to publishers and retailers who didn't comply? This isn't exaggeration; Nintendo had to be taken to court specifically because of this. Sega of America during the MS era didn't consist of 50 people. How was it supposed to compete with NOA's distribution and control over retailers? It was impossible.

And I doubt anyone playing their MS through an RF connection in 1987 would have even noticed FM sound. Seriously, how many people were talking about it back then? Hell, none of my NES-owning friends even used the composite out on their console, and it was RIGHT THERE.

Maybe I need to explain it clearer. A substantial number of SMS games never released in Japan have full FM support. IMHO, Sega had serious plans for a future FM expansion for SOA and SOE and then decided later down the line to can the idea, probably thinking to use those funds to market and develop upcoming Megadrive/Genesis instead.

There was no SOE during the MS era, and nothing I've heard from anyone at SOA during that time even mentions FM sound. I don't really think it was even a blip on the radar.

As for Pettus' book, I'm surprised that no one here has mentioned the 75+ interviews we've done over the past 8 years with people in the industry, American, European, and even a few Japanese (which would be more if they were actually willing to talk). Personally, I've spent months researching the deep historials I've written, and not to toot my own horn or anything, but many of our articles expand on what Pettus wrote. For instance, I'm currently finishing up a massive retrospective on the Sega Sports brand, and I've spoken to more than a half dozen people over the phone and through email specifically for this article, including Michael Katz and the people in charge of the development for all games under Sega Sports and the people behind its marketing.

There's quite a bit he didn't discuss, and we've covered a lot of it (history of the STI, Sonic 3 & MJ, etc.). Those articles are based on press releases, reports from major press outlets, and first-hand interviews (by email and phone) from the people involved. I don't mean any disrespect to the author, but aren't these articles at least a decade old? Has any new information been added to corroborate and confirm what he wrote back then? The latest update for the most recent SB article (Dreamcast) was in 2007.

[sheath]

Are you basing this off of what is online or what was printed in the book? Some of the specs were already updated, but if you have a more direct or accurate source then these can be updated again if necessary. As for the other suggestions a lot of them would require a complete rewrite, something that would destroy much of what has already been written. I understand that a lot of people don't really agree with what Pettus wrote, but I am not in a position to make major changes to what work that he did. Update I can do, maybe even some additions, but I have my hands tied with rewriting major sections of Segabase. If you were to have a list of Corrections that could be made then that could be added or fixed to what we have. We want to make the book as accurate as possible but with out erasing a lot of what Pettus has done.

Yes, I am basing it off of what is online. I just ordered the book, and I haven't done an exhaustive search for errors and whatnot. When I first read these pages ten years ago I found them fascinating and they certainly stimulated my own research into the times. The problem is I can't fact check anything because the citation style doesn't allow me to. I would have to accumulate every article in his bibliography and read it and then re-read the entire section to figure out where he used it. In History this is considered a shady form of citation most often used to conceal poor research or proof texting. I'm not saying that is what Pettus did, but in my own research I will only be able to use the same sources he cited plus whatever other interviews I can find today. Melf's interviews are a perfect example of this and many of them alter if not correct Pettus' writing.

Any assistance anyone wants for a provide would be gladly accepted, but if not we will do the best that we can with the 0 dollar budget we have. :-) But remember, we are writing a book and not a wikipedia page.

I'm not sure what this means. A book should be more carefully edited and have a formal citation method applied even more than a wikipedia page. Wikipedia can never be a source, but a book can.

[Lan Di]

The lack of FM might not have been a major blunder, but IMHO, it was severely overlooked. I consider it a lack of managerial competency. And like I said before, little kids could care less about FM, every other gamer back then would probably like it. Remember the boom boxes and the Sony Walkman? Quality sound was in back then. Hey, I can't help it if I love me some SMS FM.

[retrospiel]

Hi everyone,

I'm the contributing author of this book and I'd love to hear any ways to improve the accuracy of what is written. Are there specific examples of what I can change or add that would make this a better overall work?

Thanks.

Thanks for joining this discussion (and forum)! I really, really do appreciate your request for constructive criticism. The problem I see is that you can't just go over the text and fix individual sentences. If you were to focus on hard facts alone and simply remove all speculation and rumors there would be not much left of the original, or maybe even not much of a story in general.

Still, it might be worth it to try to rewrite larger segments of the text who blame the fault on those who were not heard during the research/interview phase.

If time permits I will have a look at the text again.

[retrospiel]

The lack of FM might not have been a major blunder, but IMHO, it was severely overlooked. I consider it a lack of managerial competency.

1983 SG-1000
1985 SG-1000M3 (Mark III), basically a SG-1000 VDP update with *optional* FM add-on.
1986 Master System (US/EU)
1987 Master System (JP), includes FM add-on chip [edited typo], basically a "Deluxe" version of the Mark III based on the overseas redesign

...so as you can see it's not that Sega of Japan somehow forced Sega of America to not include the FM module to save on money like you suggest* but that the SMS is actually identical to the Mark III on the inside. It even includes the expansion port that would have allowed an FM add-on to be released at a later date.



* in fact, we do know from Melf's interview with the Sega of Europe CEO that Sega of Amercia (and Europe) had to pay Sega of Japan for its hard- and software, so SOJ would not have saved money, it would have earned money if Sega of America included the FM add-on.

[sheath]

I personally installed my FM module from viletim at SMS power. The process required taking wire cutters to the inside of the case to make the expansion port tabs come loose and soldering the power to the correct leg of a particular capacitor unique to my Master System's board revision. Viletim hadn't seen my board revision before, it's a 1986 snail game model, but he hadn't documented how to install the expansion on that one.

If they were going to release the FM module in the US they needed to have planned on using the expansion port, left it open and added power to it. I would be willing to bet that the Jpn Master Systems with FM have the chip on the board.

[lightofhonor]

Yes, I am basing it off of what is online. I just ordered the book, and I haven't done an exhaustive search for errors and whatnot. When I first read these pages ten years ago I found them fascinating and they certainly stimulated my own research into the times. The problem is I can't fact check anything because the citation style doesn't allow me to. I would have to accumulate every article in his bibliography and read it and then re-read the entire section to figure out where he used it. In History this is considered a shady form of citation most often used to conceal poor research or proof texting. I'm not saying that is what Pettus did, but in my own research I will only be able to use the same sources he cited plus whatever other interviews I can find today. Melf's interviews are a perfect example of this and many of them alter if not correct Pettus' writing.



I'm not sure what this means. A book should be more carefully edited and have a formal citation method applied even more than a wikipedia page. Wikipedia can never be a source, but a book can.

What I meant is this isn't meant to be a textbook. Citations can be useful for finding more information, but I feel they have little place in a work like this. This is especially true in print when all the sources are online. That being said, we do want to be accurate. If anything you see is wrong and you can prove it then I will gladly correct it. I'll even special mention you if that Person wants. We want to make this the best it can be.

[Melf]

I don't think there should be in-text, parenthetical citations, but there should be an appendix and end notes (there might be. I haven't seen the book, so if there are, then just ignore my second point).

[Phantar]

As for Pettus' book, I'm surprised that no one here has mentioned the 75+ interviews we've done over the past 8 years with people in the industry, American, European, and even a few Japanese (which would be more if they were actually willing to talk). Personally, I've spent months researching the deep historials I've written, and not to toot my own horn or anything, but many of our articles expand on what Pettus wrote. For instance, I'm currently finishing up a massive retrospective on the Sega Sports brand, and I've spoken to more than a half dozen people over the phone and through email specifically for this article, including Michael Katz and the people in charge of the development for all games under Sega Sports and the people behind its marketing.

There's quite a bit he didn't discuss, and we've covered a lot of it (history of the STI, Sonic 3 & MJ, etc.). Those articles are based on press releases, reports from major press outlets, and first-hand interviews (by email and phone) from the people involved. I don't mean any disrespect to the author, but aren't these articles at least a decade old? Has any new information been added to corroborate and confirm what he wrote back then? The latest update for the most recent SB article (Dreamcast) was in 2007.

Come to think of it, have you ever considered putting out a book of your own? Considering the massive amount of material you've compiled on your own, plus the additional content others have pitched in, it seems like you have a sizeable amount of good base material right here. All the interviews and features with people from within the industry would definitely make for an interesting read. And should you need the consent or additional content from other contributors, I'd be willing to help with that project.

[sheath]

What I meant is this isn't meant to be a textbook. Citations can be useful for finding more information, but I feel they have little place in a work like this. This is especially true in print when all the sources are online. That being said, we do want to be accurate. If anything you see is wrong and you can prove it then I will gladly correct it. I'll even special mention you if that Person wants. We want to make this the best it can be.

Footnotes or Endnotes would invariably make this work better. There is no way around that. Inline citations can take away from the readability if that is your goal. Simple footnote or endnote numbers after relevant sections make it easier to do further research. They also have the added benefit of helping the author keep facts straight and avoid simple errors.

Without Footnotes or Endnotes it will be impossible to ever take your or Pettus' work as a primary source.

[Da_Shocker]

Interesting stuff in here. I'd like to say that for the most part everybody that I knew that had and NES used RF cables. I didn't notices how much better composite was until I hooked up both of them on dads nice ass monitor and the difference was night and day. After that I could NEVER go back to rf again.