The Sega Saturn appreciation thread

[Barone]

How would the PS1 version of Wipeout have analog acceleration? The Dual-Shock didn't have analog triggers and the manual only shows the old controller and mouse support.

Well, I'll try to sort the things out (sorry for the off topic guys):
1) neGcon: It provides analog steering using its twist function and analog acceleration/braking using its two pressure sensible buttons I and II (they have a spring inside or something). It was introduced along with the console release in Japan (1994), so many early/launch games like the first Ridge Racer already support it. It's mostly for racing games but some other games, like the Ace Combat series, also support it.
Many 3rd party PS1 steering wheels are compatible with the neGcon protocol, so you can have analog acceleration/breaking with pedals in early games, what is awesome IMO.
Aside from that, there are some 3rd party controllers that are also compatible with the neGcon (some are also compatible with the jogCon) protocol like these:




Usually, the 3rd party devices are better options 'cause the Namco neGcon controller has an awful d-pad and its twist mechanism wears out quickly. Also, most of the 3rd party controllers are multicompatible (jogCon and/or analog joystick and/or dual shock compatibility) and several of them have button programming functions which are especially useful since most of the early games lack any control configuration screen and the default layout is, many times, funky.


2) Analog Joystick/Dual Analog: This protocol was introduced in April 1996 with the big twin stick controller called Analog Joystick. Some of the early flight games and a few racers are compatible with this controller.
Later, in 1997, Sony introduced the Dual Analog controller, which looks very similar to a Dual Shock controller but they are not interchangeable, they use different analog protocols. The Dual Analog had malfunction problems with its vibration function and it was quickly replaced by the Dual Shock controller.


Both of the above protocols can provide full analog controls (steering + acceleration/braking) and even the vibration function (there are some bizarre cases where a game supports both dual shock and neGcon controllers but only in neGcon mode you can have full analog controls + vibration, like in Side by Side Special 2000).
As for the dual shock, you don't need analog triggers like the 3D Pad since you have 2 analog sticks and not only one like in the Saturn controller.



About the manual, well, the mouse support is weird (to say the least) but you'll rarely find any mention to neGcon support in any PS1 game released in US (Peak Performance being one of the very few exceptions and probably due to lousy publishing job) 'cause the controller was only released in Japan and Europe (that's possibly why they added support to mouse). So, most of the time, the US versions of the games do support the controller but they say nothing on the cover neither in the manual.
US publishing of PS1 games is messy in such aspect, you have major games like Duke Nukem Total Meltdown that are compatible with the Dual Shock controller but doesn't mention the support on the cover neither in the manual.

[Zz Badnusty]

The neGcon works ok with some of the ball and paddle games too, like Arkanoid R 2000, Block Kids, and a few others.

On topic:
The lack of ball and paddle games on Saturn always disapoints me. Off the top of my head, I believe the only one is Super Breakout on an Arcades Greatest Hits Atari Collection. And I've wondered if Super Breakout or any of the other games on the collection support the Saturn mouse, or other controllers?

[gamevet]

I can't see the PSX version of Wipeout supporting analog controls, when it doesn't even show support for a racing wheel. It's pretty much a launch title in the US. And yes, I've seen the NGcon before.


I tried playing Wipeout with the Saturn 3D controller. It worked much better with a d-pad.

[Zz Badnusty]

Namco Museum Vol.1 is from 1995 and that supports the neGcon for Pole Position.

[Barone]

I can't see the PSX version of Wipeout supporting analog controls, when it doesn't even show support for a racing wheel. It's pretty much a launch title in the US. And yes, I've seen the NGcon before.

I tried playing Wipeout with the Saturn 3D controller. It worked much better with a d-pad.

Not all mission stick or arcade racer games play well with the 3D Controller. Actually I'm surprised to know that it recognized the controller.

Namco Museum Vol.1 is from 1995 and that supports the neGcon for Pole Position.

Yep.

The neGcon works ok with some of the ball and paddle games too, like Arkanoid R 2000, Block Kids, and a few others.

I think those games were supposed to be played using the Volume Controller/Paddle Controller, which uses a subset of the neGcon protocol.

On topic:
The lack of ball and paddle games on Saturn always disapoints me. Off the top of my head, I believe the only one is Super Breakout on an Arcades Greatest Hits Atari Collection. And I've wondered if Super Breakout or any of the other games on the collection support the Saturn mouse, or other controllers?

I think it supports since the PS1 version supports both mouse and Analog Joystick; usually these cross-platform releases share the peripheral compatibility and the Saturn version was released later.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Audio quality doesn't have anything to do with Q Sound. A series of beeps can be done in Q Sound. Why would they put the Q Sound logo (and accompanying text) on the back cover, the disc, and the back of the manual, if it's not using Q Sound? What do you think that logo means -- that Q Sound is a thing that exists?

I'm aware of that, what I am getting at is that possibly the Saturn versions are recorded from the Arcade board which would count as mixed in QSound to get the logo on the box. Is it at all possible that the PS1 and Dreamcast ports are doing software code that's doing QSound mixing in real time similar to the Arcade boards? If that's the case that could explain the superior stereo separation on the PS1 and Dreamcast ports as well as the better audio quality over the Saturn ports. It could also explain the missing boot screens.

It just seems odd that Capcom would have that logo screen in there for an early build of some CPS2 fighters only to then remove it from the finished games.

Its in the Saturn ports and you'll see the logo now and again on the end credits . I mean lots of Saturn games used cinepak but it was never displayed on the title screen

I know it's in some of them in the game over sequence but it's not quite the same screen if I remember correctly.

[Bradcap1]

Thanks for the comments and info provided. Yeah, it's a debatable case I think, no definitive winner version.



I can tell you that you're doing great so far and I think you shouldn't worry about past history of other members... You'll see some bloody discussions from time to time but, usually, people don't do that and/or don't take things too personally.

And, no, in this particular case I think everyone is being quite polite in this thread. I just meant to say that some PS1 fanboy would try to force the analog acceleration/breaking as a definitive advantage...

I just checked Saturn Road Rash for Arcade Racer support. It is not supported. Neither is the 3d controller in analog mode. To the game's credit though, you get a nice "peripheral not supported" message. The Mission Stick does work but I think the standard controller works best.

[gamevet]

Not all mission stick or arcade racer games play well with the 3D Controller. Actually I'm surprised to know that it recognized the controller.

It was actually Daytona. I tried playing it with the 3D controller and my car turned too sharp. I'd played it so many times with a d-pad, that playing with analog was much harder.

I tried the 3D controller with Wipeout when I got home. It'll play with the controller, but not using analog.

[Bradcap1]

It was actually Daytona. I tried playing it with the 3D controller and my car turned too sharp. I'd played it so many times with a d-pad, that playing with analog was much harder.

I tried the 3D controller with Wipeout when I got home. It'll play with the controller, but not using analog.

I just verified this on Wipeout. 3d controller will not work in analog. The Arcade Racer works really well as the L and R paddles on the column control nose up and down. It's the only controller that the configuration screen shows nose up/down options. The Mission Stick works but it controls terribly. I couldn't even go in a straight line.

[Barone]

Myst - Faaaarrr superior to the crappy PS1 version. Arguably better than the 3DO version as well (clearly shorter loadings on the Saturn).

I had to correct this one.
Later in the game (I played it for some time more today) it really shows that the 3DO version is superior. There's a lot of bad changes in the Saturn/PS1 version. Actually, the 3DO version is a faithful reproduction of the Mac one and the PS1/Saturn versions are heavily altered, for the worse. Saturn version is still far superior to the PS1's (more sfx, better colors, bigger screen, less and shorter loadings...).

I also read that, oddly enough, the Jaguar CD has the best looking version of the console ports and it's equal to the 3DO's in terms of content, with shorter loadings (according to several sources, including several members of a 3DO forum (!!!)). It only loses to the 3DO's due to the fact that it doesn't support the mouse and 3DO does (I actually have one and it really works well).

It was actually Daytona. I tried playing it with the 3D controller and my car turned too sharp. I'd played it so many times with a d-pad, that playing with analog was much harder.

I tried the 3D controller with Wipeout when I got home. It'll play with the controller, but not using analog.

I just verified this on Wipeout. 3d controller will not work in analog. The Arcade Racer works really well as the L and R paddles on the column control nose up and down. It's the only controller that the configuration screen shows nose up/down options. The Mission Stick works but it controls terribly. I couldn't even go in a straight line.

Cool stuff, guys.
I will play both Saturn and PS1 versions using a multicompatible PS1/SAT/N64 (neGcon/Dual Shock; Arcade Racer/3D Control Pad; N64 analog) programmable steering wheel set (wheel + pedals + separate gearbox and handbrake), then I'll post some additional comments about Wipeout gameplay.

[gamevet]

Then why would the other home ports have it? It's odd that it's missing in ONLY the Saturn ports. As for Sega asking it to be removed why would they say "please remove that from the Saturn port of Alpha 3 but go a head and put it in the Dreamcast port!"? It doesn't make sense. The Saturn ports may very well be using QSound, but considering the Audio Quality seems to be lower than that of the other ports and there's no QSound boot screens, I'm thinking they may not be using it.

The only audio quality issue with the Saturn versions is the sound quality of the voices and sound effects. The music is where Qsound is being used, and it's quite evident (shifting of sound to the left and right) when you know what you're hearing. KoolKitty once posted the reason why the Saturn's version of Capcom's games had those sound issues; It had something to do with the available memory for sound samples.

Considering how privey Sony was with the use of their development tools and hardware, compared to Sega and Nintendo at the time, it's likely that Sega wasn't too keen on having Qsound advertising in their games. Just look at Sega Rally and Nights, 2 games that used Qsound, but didn't have any hints of its use in the credits. Sega was more open with the Dreamcast, since they were trying to appeal to the needs of 3rd party publishers.



Here is a list of games that support Qsound. Even the SNES had games that were using the technology.
http://nogaemz.com/concepts/q-sound




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QSound#...d_in_QSound.22

The system was used in all Capcom CP System Dash, CP System II and CP System III titles as well as several console games and the Sony ZN-1 and ZN-2 hardware arcade games such as Battle Arena Toshinden 2.

Electronic Arts, Activision, Microsoft Game Studios, Sega, Virgin Interactive, TDK Mediactive, Bullfrog Productions, and Lionhead Studios have also used the technology, mostly through the use of the QMixer software development kit to implement audio positioning, mixing and control directly in the game software. Later versions of QMixer added support for 3D-accelerated hardware through the low-level Microsoft DirectSound3D Application Programming Interface.

Q3D has been incorporated in a variety of computer sound cards and sound card drivers.

While the system is known by some for its use in video game titles, the first QSound chip used for that purpose was not created until 1991, while QSound had been developed in the late 1980s and has been used in everything from screensavers to television programming. Some TVs were also produced with this technology.[1] Several 1990s music albums were also "mixed in QSound" (see below) using the QSystem or QSystem II hardware processors, and many other music releases have been enhanced with QSound effects using software plug-in versions of the QSystem and other software utilities. (The QSound website maintains a list of known projects.[citation needed])

In 2003, Q3D was added to the list of components in QSound Labs' microQ, a small-footprint, performance-optimized software digital audio engine aimed at the mobile market (i.e. cellphones and the like). Q3D enables 3D sound for handheld gaming and can be controlled in Java games via the JSR-234 Application Programming Interface.

It is important to distinguish 3D positional processing (example: QSound i.e. the multi-channel QSystem professional processor used in the production of pop music and film audio) from stereo expansion (examples: QSound QXpander, SRS(R)Sound Retrieval System). Positional 3D audio processing is a producer-side technology. It is applied to individual instruments or sound effects, and is therefore only usable at the mixing phase of music and soundtrack production, or under realtime control of game audio mixing software. Stereo expansion (processing of recorded channels and background ambience) is primarily a consumer-side process that can be arbitrarily applied to stereo content in the end-user environment using analog integrated circuits or digital signal processing (DSP) routines.

Over 60 albums feature QSound processing. Some notable examples include:

The Adventures of MC Skat Kat and the Stray Mob by MC Skat Kat (1991)
Amused to Death by Roger Waters (1992)
Broken China by Rick Wright (1996)
The Immaculate Collection by Madonna (1990)
Dangerous by Michael Jackson (1991)
Parallels by Fates Warning (1991)
Pulse by Pink Floyd (1995)
Power of Love by Luther Vandross (1991)
The Soul Cages by Sting (1991)
Spellbound by Paula Abdul (1991)
Help Yourself by Julian Lennon (1991)
Whaler by Sophie B. Hawkins (1994)
Prisoners in Paradise by Europe (1991)

Also of interest on the Saturn SFA3 box is the mention of IMA ADPCM algorithms. This isn't on the PS1 box or the Dreamcast box to my knowledge.

It sounds like the Saturn version was using audio positioning of sound effects through the use of PCM.

[Barone]

Considering how privey Sony was with the use of their development tools and hardware, compared to Sega and Nintendo at the time, it's likely that Sega wasn't too keen on having Qsound advertising in their games. Just look at Sega Rally and Nights, 2 games that used Qsound, but didn't have any hints of its use in the credits. Sega was more open with the Dreamcast, since they were trying to appeal to the needs of 3rd party publishers.

PS1 has several games using QSound and/or Dolby Surround that will not show their logo on the cover (or only in the Japanese version; which always have more information than the other versions, so it seems to be more a publishing matter than anything else) but will show the logos inside the game.
Mickeys's Wild Adventure (Mickey Mania), for an example, has nothing on the cover but has a big intro screen saying "Presented in Dolby Surround".

Here is a list of games that support Qsound.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QSound#...d_in_QSound.22

Wiki article doesn't mention, but Sony, with PSygnosis and SCEA, was pushing the 3D sound spaces (including QSound) usage in many games published by them.
I have an on going list for PS1 games using 3D Sound Spaces and it's getting pretty long (still without adding the major Capcom CPS2 games):

N2O: Nitrous Oxide                 Dolby Surround
Croc: Legend of the Gobbos         Dolby Surround/Stereo
Croc 2                             Dolby Surround
Alien Resurrection                 Dolby Surround
3D Lemmings                        Dolby Surround/Stereo
Mickey's Wild Adventures           Dolby Surround
Formula 1 (SIPS 60011)             Dolby Surround/Stereo  QSound
Formula 1 (Champioship Edition)    Dolby Surround/Stereo  QSound
The Adventures of Lomax            Dolby Surround  QSound
Chronicles of the Sword            QSound
Speedster                          Dolby Surround  QSound
Sentient                           Dolby Surround
Codename: Tenka                    Dolby Surround
G-POLICE                           Dolby Surround
Jet Moto 3                         Dolby Surround
Shipwrackers/Overboard!            Dolby Surround
Colony Wars                        Dolby Surround
Shadow Master                      Dolby Surround  QSound
Rascal                             Dolby Surround
Sentinel Returns                   QSound
Formula 1 '99 (SCPS 10101)         Dolby Surround/Pro-logic
F1 2000                            QSound
Wing Commander IV                  Dolby Surround
Twilight Syndrome Saikai           Dolby Surround
Twilight Syndrome Special          3D Sound
Twilight Syndrome: Kyuumeihen      3D Sound
Descent Maximum                    Dolby Surround
Hugo: The Quest for the Sunstones  Dolby Surround
Hugo                               Dolby Surround
Hugo 2                             Dolby Surround
Viper                              Dolby Surround
Tenchi o Kurau 2                   QSound
Rollcage                           QSound
Star Gladiator Episode 1           QSound
Rival Schools                      QSound
Street Fighter EX2 Plus            QSound
Rock 'n Roll Racing 2: Red Asphalt Dolby Surround
Shockwave                          Dolby Surround
Shockwave Assault                  Dolby Surround
Shockwave: Operation Jumpgate      Dolby Surround
Road Rash                          Dolby Surround
The Need For Speed                 Dolby Surround
Need For Speed II                  Dolby Surround
Need For Speed III                 Dolby Surround
Need For Speed IV                  Dolby Surround
Need for Speed: V-Rally            Dolby Surround
NASCAR 98                          Dolby Surround
NASCAR 99                          Dolby Surround
NASCAR 2000                        Dolby Surround
Road Rash 3D                       Dolby Surround

A list for the Sega CD:

QSound:
Ecco the Dolphin 	
Ecco: The Tides of Time 
Sonic CD (US version)	
Joe Montana's NFL Football 	
The Amazing Spider-Man vs. the Kingpin	
Jurassic Park 	
The Terminator 	        
Eternal Champions: Challenge from the Dark Side

Roland Sound Space:
Snatcher
Shadow Of The Beast II

Some other lists (fairly incomplete in some cases) (someone needs to build a Saturn list):
3DO:
http://www.mobygames.com/attribute/s...teId,136/p,35/
PS1:
http://www.mobygames.com/attribute/s...uteId,136/p,6/
SNES:
http://www.mobygames.com/attribute/s...teId,136/p,15/

It's not always true what some games say. Takara games on the SNES using Dolby Surround is just a bad joke (anyone who has already played those games know how shitty they sound).


For more info about 3D sound spaces, the QSound plug-in and the Roland Sound Space I recommend these links:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1994.../3dmixing.html
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1995...95/qsound.html
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...ician_0107.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996...landrss10.html
http://www.sweetwater.com/publicatio...idaySN_12.html
http://www.sheffield.com.br/portugue...alk/801-4.html
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug0...oundsound1.asp (this guide has nine parts)
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1997...ysurround.html
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun0...eader_0607.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun0...ptencoders.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug0...ingplugins.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov0...m_surround.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb0...es/it_0209.htm

And if you guys don't notice that the PS1 version music of SFZ3 uses far more stereo separation and a different source from the arcade, Dreamcast and Saturn versions you're hearing it wrong.

On topic:
Saturn version of Rayman is superior to the other version especially in the sound department and it doesn't claim to be using any sound space bs.

[gamevet]

I've had my consoles connected to at least a Dolby Pro-Logic reciever since 1992. Even some of the SNES games like Super Star Wars sounded pretty amazing in surround.

I can definitely say the Colony Wars was meant to be played in surround. And even thoughthe Playstation Doom wasn't in Dolby Surround, there were times when I'd hear a grunt of a groan from behind that would make me jump.

G-Police supports Qsound, Barone.

[Barone]

I've had my consoles connected to at least a Dolby Pro-Logic reciever since 1992. Even some of the SNES games like Super Star Wars sounded pretty amazing in surround.

Cool!
I recently bought a Sennheiser Lucas to create my custom Dolby Pro-Logic set (it also let's you emulate the surround effect using headphones), I can't wait to get it working.

I can definitely say the Colony Wars was meant to be played in surround.

Sure it is. The other two games of the series also say "Presented in Dolby Surround" in the intro (I just updated my list), despite not having any logos on the cover. Psygnosis used to care a lot aobut sound in their games.
BTW, Colony Wars is a great game.

And even though the Playstation Doom wasn't in Dolby Surround, there were times when I'd hear a grunt of a groan from behind that would make me jump.

That's awesome. Did you ever try Alien Resurrection? That one has some really awesome SFX, Dolby Surround too.
sheath says that even some Genesis games in some spots use the rear channel, like SOR2 in the elevator (IIRC).

G-Police supports Qsound, Barone.

Thanks. I saved the info here.

I need to build a list for the Saturn. Heck, the Internet always lack videos and all sorts of info about Saturn games.

[zetastrike]

I should be getting my PAR cart in the mail soon. I want to know how badly it damages the cart slot. Is it ok to remove it once in a while, like when I take it to and from school?