The Sega Saturn appreciation thread

[gamevet]

Yeah, I love the Saturn.
Earlier in the thread someone brought up Game Tengoku, which inspired me to give that a spin. Played through the first loop in a couple nights (didn't want to credit feed too much) super fun and got me psyched on playing some vertical shooters.
I've been listening too some Irem MP3s lately and that led me back to playing some Image Fight, and that led to playing some Gun Frontier

..point being; and I've said this ad nauseam, the Saturn library is a concise and concentrated sampling of all the best that 2-D action gaming ever had to offer.
And the top-tier 3D games on the system arguably hold-their-own or outclass their contemporaries on other systems.
Saturn can always serve up something immensely enjoyable to play no matter what my preference calls for.

The Saturn will always be my all-time favorite console. It truly is the gamer's console and a better arcade console than the mighty Neo-Geo.

[Barone]

One of the things that I like most about the Saturn is how many classic/old 2D arcade games you can play on it without having to pay a ton of cash for an old 5 kilos Japanese computer, and also being able to use the proper controllers (be it its awesome 2D Pad, the Mission Stick or the well made 3D Control pad).
For the most part, no emulation or half-assed ports...

More than its other strengths, the Saturn is your old 2D arcade platform without "buts" and "howevers".

[Sean697]

You know I bought a 32 X and a Saturn. But I still don't think the 32 X was a good idea. And how is it that the 32 X Virtua racer blows away the Saturn one? I think the Saturn could do great 3D but the only company who knew how to program it good was Sega. Their 3D games looked great. Third party 3D games not so much.

[Thenewguy]

Pictures

This is hilarious, is this the best you can make the Saturn version look? it must have taken you a while to get areas on Saturn that looked good, as well as tons of contrast fiddling on top of that to get it optimal, and all of these pictures look barely any different from each other at all!

In fact the PS1 version still looks better in some of the screenshots! picture 2 definitely has washed out blacks on Saturn (this is what happens when you turn the contrast up like that) and looks much less defined overall. In fact there's something up with your picture there, unless the Saturn version is missing that archway entirely (it seems funny to be talking about draw distance when the Saturn version is missing that whole section in the area you're pointing out). On top of that look to the left hand side of the middle rock, you can barely make out that area at all.



Out of the pictures, #3 is definitely the most useful for showing the Saturn's pro's, a GIF of the way the Saturn version looks when you're underwater would also be a good addition



This doesn't happen on Playstation, its just static.

So on the one side you got some seams, and some more warping at certain angles (and static water effects), on the other side you have consistently murky graphics which often make it difficult to make out certain enemies (or you can turn the contrast way up and get washed out blacks), more polygons disappearing and re-appearing, and low colour/high contrast textures everywhere.

Pretty sure someone (Starmist?) checked multiple areas and different areas had different draw distance strengths in the two versions.

[Chilly Willy]

Thanks for explaining that Chilly. Is there any logical reason or benefits for setting that part of the hardware up the way they did?

Nope. They just plain screwed the pooch.

[sheath]

Hilarity

That was freaking funny man. But you forgot to mention that the PS1 version occasionally holds a slightly higher framerate while it is falling apart at the seams.

When I had first heard about the 32X through magazines like Die Hard Gamefan, I was pretty excited about what it could do. I totally lost interest in it, the moment I found out about the Saturn and actually played the Japanes console in 1994 at a Die Hard Gameclub in Dallas.

This is exactly what I think most consumers did and it has nothing to do with the 32X itself and everything to do with how it was marketed. If Sega had stuck to the low end high end scheme people wouldn't have been confused about which was going to be the main platform down the road. It is clear from the published material that the Saturn and PS1 not only overshadowed the 32X, but the 3DO and Jaguar as well. I'm curious why anybody thinks that a Genesis + Sega CD + VDP scenario would have fared any better.

Yeah, I love the Saturn.
Earlier in the thread someone brought up Game Tengoku, which inspired me to give that a spin. Played through the first loop in a couple nights (didn't want to credit feed too much) super fun and got me psyched on playing some vertical shooters.
I've been listening too some Irem MP3s lately and that led me back to playing some Image Fight, and that led to playing some Gun Frontier

..point being; and I've said this ad nauseam, the Saturn library is a concise and concentrated sampling of all the best that 2-D action gaming ever had to offer.
And the top-tier 3D games on the system arguably hold-their-own or outclass their contemporaries on other systems.
Saturn can always serve up something immensely enjoyable to play no matter what my preference calls for.

I mostly played the Saturn's 3D offerings, that almost all of those were first and second party more than third party escaped me at the time. I hardly played any third party Genesis games and ended up buying them either.

One of the things that I like most about the Saturn is how many classic/old 2D arcade games you can play on it without having to pay a ton of cash for an old 5 kilos Japanese computer, and also being able to use the proper controllers (be it its awesome 2D Pad, the Mission Stick or the well made 3D Control pad).
For the most part, no emulation or half-assed ports...

More than its other strengths, the Saturn is your old 2D arcade platform without "buts" and "howevers".

I really enjoyed Thunder Force V and Elevator Action Returns back in the day. I just didn't think of the Saturn as predominantly a 2D platform until I got into imports, and even then I have picked up more 3D titles than 2D. In 1995 I played but didn't want to buy Clockwork Knight, Astal and Shinobi Legions, but spent the rest of my time with Myst, D and the well known 3D titles.

In 1996 I bought Guardian Heroes, Sonic 3D Blast, and played the hell out of a buddy's copies of Dragon Force, Street Fighter Alpha, Alpha 2 and X-Men COTA. I passed on the rest of the 2D games I saw, even though Skeleton Warriors had me excited for a while, in favor of Mystaria, Virtual On, Tomb Raider, Virtua Cop 2, Panzer Dragoon Zwei, NiGHTs, and Christmas NiGHTs. Aside from Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo and maybe Marvel Super Heroes I don't think I played any 2D Saturn games in 1997.

I know from going back and collecting that there were a lot more 2D games than I picked up or played extensively back then. But I still don't see 2D games as the mainstay genres for the Saturn.

[gamevet]

This is exactly what I think most consumers did and it has nothing to do with the 32X itself and everything to do with how it was marketed. If Sega had stuck to the low end high end scheme people wouldn't have been confused about which was going to be the main platform down the road. It is clear from the published material that the Saturn and PS1 not only overshadowed the 32X, but the 3DO and Jaguar as well. I'm curious why anybody thinks that a Genesis + Sega CD + VDP scenario would have fared any better.

Outside of the dedicated gaming consumer, did anyone really understand (or know) what the 32X was? I wonder how many people saw the commercials for the Sega CD, bought one and didn't realize they needed a Genesis to use it once they'd brought it home.

The 32X might have faired better, if it was released sooner and as an all-in-one console, like the proposed Neptune. But, I still don't see it as a product that could have sold in the millions, considering all the other options that were available during its release, and shortly after.

[Moirai]

So what are the best 2D games on the Saturn besides shooters and fighters?

[Barone]

That was freaking funny man. But you forgot to mention that the PS1 version occasionally holds a slightly higher framerate while it is falling apart at the seams.

You little Sony hatemonger...

This is exactly what I think most consumers did and it has nothing to do with the 32X itself and everything to do with how it was marketed. If Sega had stuck to the low end high end scheme people wouldn't have been confused about which was going to be the main platform down the road. It is clear from the published material that the Saturn and PS1 not only overshadowed the 32X, but the 3DO and Jaguar as well.

Yep.

I'm curious why anybody thinks that a Genesis + Sega CD + VDP scenario would have fared any better.

Not that SOA and SOJ would have done much better since they had mastered the art of screwing up their own brand by 1994 but:
- CD game copies are cheaper to produce, publish and distribute.
- CDs could have been used to release a lot of compilations of great Genesis games, thus naturally extending the Sega CD life and providing a great bonus for the owners a that one time hell of expensive machine.
- Sega CD could have been used as a Genesis game enhancer, just like WM did with Pier Solar.
- By 1994, the developer tools for the Sega CD had been improved in such a way that most of games with both Sega CD and 32X versions actually run better on the Sega CD despite the 32X being a much more powerful platform (see Pitfall and BC Racers). 32X would, as any new hardware, have a maturing period in which most of its games wouldn't make justice to its hardware capabilities; Sega had time and reources to surpass such period relatively well? It would mean money and more money being used with marketing and a lot of effort from Sega to bring more 3rd paties to the 32X boat in order to keep the 32X owners and potential owners thinking positively about the platform.
- Developing the 32X hardware and its developer tools certainly cost SOA's and SOJ's resources not only in terms of money but also in terms of time; time focusing in one more new console when they already had several platforms to support. At the same time, Sony was just focusing in its publishing, releasing and marketing strategies for its new 32-bit console that would compete with Sega Saturn and not the Sega 32X, even in a favorable scenario for the 32X. Nintendo was busy making more money with the SNES, pushing more 3rd party partnerships and cashing over the Sega's bad choices.
Think about the time and human resources used with the 32X being invested in Sega Saturn's development and its release, as well as Genesis and Sega CD marketing.
- The 32X release campaign certainly wasn't any cheap. Think about the same money being used to market the new Genesis/Sega CD games, the Sega CD as a way to get dozens of Genesis games for cheap; as long as their upcoming 32-bit console.
- No 32X release would mean that Genesis and Sega CD owners would still feel like Sega was giving all its attention to them, rather than just asking for more money for another new add-on that would put them "in the next level", just like they promised and not delivered in several levels with the Sega CD.
- No 32X means no customer confusion about which 32-bit platform Sega would be actually pushing.
...

I know from going back and collecting that there were a lot more 2D games than I picked up or played extensively back then. But I still don't see 2D games as the mainstay genres for the Saturn.

I can see where are you coming from but that's not exactly what I said (or, at least, not what I meant to say).

Saturn is probably the best choice for hardware demanding 2D classics (please, don't come up with the emulated crap of the newer consoles, you today's kid; surely not a message for you, sheath). This is a "group" of games that will cost you a ton of cash to play in real hardware if you imagine the world without the Saturn.
I'm not saying that this is the biggest highlight of the Saturn's library but this is the most valuable of its strengths as a platform to me.
I'm one of those who think that being able to play great/superb renditions of games like Space Harrier, After Burner II, Galaxy Force, OutRun, Chase H.Q., Night Striker, Mizubaku Daibouken, classic Capcom and SNK fighters, etc... In one single platform is just pure awesomeness and puts all the 3D discussion in a second place. Sums up the fact that the Saturn has good controllers and analog support for almost all games which had it on the arcade and you have a killer 2D gaming platform.
Also, the Saturn is sturdy as hell.
OTOH, you have very few good versions of good 2D hardware demanding games on the PS1 and, still, some of them are flawed thanks to its iffy early analog support (like Night Striker).
Other options would include the expensive as hell and floppy-based X68000, the expensive as hell and fail-prone FM Towns Marty, the expensive and not-with-a-well-rounded-library Neo Geo...

That's what I'm talking about.

So what are the best 2D games on the Saturn besides shooters and fighters?

Well, I don't know if they are the "best" ones 'cause it will depend on your personal taste but these are good IMO:
OutRun
Chase H.Q. + S.C.I.
Mizubaku Daibouken
Rayman
Bubble Symphony
Mega Man 8
Mega Man X4
Elevator Action Returns
Magic Knight Rayearth
Dungeons and Dragons Collection
Silhouette Mirage
Albert Odyssey
Legend of Oasis/Story of Thor 2
Metal Slug
Saturn Bomberman
Guardian Heroes
Crows: The Battle Action For Sega Saturn
...

[Black_Tiger]

So what are the best 2D games on the Saturn besides shooters and fighters?

Tengai Makyou The Apocalypse IV
Lunars
Keio
Silhouette Mirage
Guardian Heroes
AD&D Collection
Princess Crown
etc

[Thenewguy]

Hmmm, I think I gave the Saturn the water point prematurely.

Yeah it has that wavy effect, but the PS1 tints lara's colours when she's underwater, and the white flecks are transparent on PS1, they're more like floating paper, or bath foam on the saturn. The Saturn's wavy effect really is quite cool though, maybe Saturn still gets the water point anyway.

[Zz Badnusty]

etc

VATLVA
...once, somewhere, long ago, I read one other person on this planet praise VATLVA as the best party game ever.
I was delighted to find someone else who saw the brilliance in that game as I do. Problem is, no one ever since has seemed inclined to agree, or even give the game a chance enough to learn the controls. :/

edit:
Here's a two on two team battle playthrough. Shows just how hectic and confusing the game can be. 6 players battles are balls to the wall.

Notice those weapon select screens, hard to follow in the video, but there are numerous offensive weapons (forward or rear firing, or both, including projectiles, bombs, swords, saw blades...), and defensive options (like oil slick, electrical field, smoke screen) and some items are unique to certain craft too. Then you'll notice the performance customization screen, and be aware each craft controls vastly different than the next, requiring vastly different strategies. On the play screen you'll notice the main life bar, and then the 6 smaller individual bars correlate to each of the weapons.
During the matches themselves the AI competitors are aggressive and can team up and kill you rather quickly, especially if you've chosen ineffective weapons or shields for the particular enemy you're facing. Some of the arenas have obstacles such as an oil derrick or storage tanks which can be detonated to damage enemies, in the case of the oil derrick, the flames continue spewing after the detonation and players will be damaged by driving or being rammed through the flames.
VATLVA may look primitive and haphazard in execution even, but that belies the overwhelming number of ways a person (or 2, or 3,4,5, or 6 people) can play.

[sheath]

Wow, I always thought Enemy Zero was an FMV game somewhat like Mansion of Hidden Souls.

[gamevet]

Wow, I always thought Enemy Zero was an FMV game somewhat like Mansion of Hidden Souls.

I've said it in the past: Enemy Zero is not a game you can put into a general category. It's part D's Diner, Myst, Survival Horror and Aliens in one unique game package. It's a must play for the Saturn.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

VATLVA
...once, somewhere, long ago, I read one other person on this planet praise VATLVA as the best party game ever.
I was delighted to find someone else who saw the brilliance in that game as I do. Problem is, no one ever since has seemed inclined to agree, or even give the game a chance enough to learn the controls. :/

edit:
Here's a two on two team battle playthrough. Shows just how hectic and confusing the game can be. 6 players battles are balls to the wall.

Notice those weapon select screens, hard to follow in the video, but there are numerous offensive weapons (forward or rear firing, or both, including projectiles, bombs, swords, saw blades...), and defensive options (like oil slick, electrical field, smoke screen) and some items are unique to certain craft too. Then you'll notice the performance customization screen, and be aware each craft controls vastly different than the next, requiring vastly different strategies. On the play screen you'll notice the main life bar, and then the 6 smaller individual bars correlate to each of the weapons.
During the matches themselves the AI competitors are aggressive and can team up and kill you rather quickly, especially if you've chosen ineffective weapons or shields for the particular enemy you're facing. Some of the arenas have obstacles such as an oil derrick or storage tanks which can be detonated to damage enemies, in the case of the oil derrick, the flames continue spewing after the detonation and players will be damaged by driving or being rammed through the flames.
VATLVA may look primitive and haphazard in execution even, but that belies the overwhelming number of ways a person (or 2, or 3,4,5, or 6 people) can play.

How did this game not leave Japan?!