Games that would have been better on a different console

[Raijin]

Trust me, we've talked about this and went over this many times before. Controllers don't define consoles. If you want the stock SNES pad button layout, then why not just use one of the Genesis pads that has it?

So, there are official Genesis controllers that sport an SNES-like layout while feeling completely comfortable and not at all cheap and trashy like any third party controllers?

[StarMist]

So, there are official Genesis controllers that sport an SNES-like layout while feeling completely comfortable and not at all cheap and trashy like any third party controllers?

The Competition Pro has six buttons all large and offset (angled). Ascii has a 6b pad with a layout exactly like the SNES pad's except the controller is bowed. Those are good controllers. Joysticks would also be an option, at least a certain percentage of Capcom faithful would already own or want to own one for Street Fighter.

[Raijin]

The Competition Pro has six buttons all large and offset (angled). Ascii has a 6b pad with a layout exactly like the SNES pad's except the controller is bowed. Those are good controllers. Joysticks would also be an option, at least a certain percentage of Capcom faithful would already own or want to own one for Street Fighter.

Works for me. The Competition Pro looks terrible, but that Ascii one looks like it might be nice, though not a fan of the turbo, not like it has to be used though.
Also, I actually prefer the standard 6 button controller for Street Fighter. I hate Street Fighter for the SNES mainly because of that control scheme. Anyway, yeah that Ascii controller would be good enough for Megaman X, though naturally, depending on release it would determine if the game would have support for 6 buttons or only 3 (pause classic style to switch weapons with 3 button scheme and switch on the fly with 6).

[Barone]

Trust me, we've talked about this and went over this many times before. Controllers don't define consoles. If you want the stock SNES pad button layout, then why not just use one of the Genesis pads that has it?

This, a million times.

People here love to use this argument to say that Saturn games are superior to PS1 games. Or that Genesis games are better than the SNES ones due to that. Besides the clear nonsense, it's interesting to notice that the same people defend the cheapo Dreamcast controller and don't accept it to be a disadvantage when talking about DC games...
Also, 3rd party controllers are always ignored in the discussions since "they didn't came with the console" as if all Genesis had came with two 6 Button Arcade Pads... Bias.


By the way, the ASCII controllers are the best option for those looking for SNES layout pads on the Genesis.

[sheath]

Man, we're butting heads again. The Dreamcast controller's form factor and lack of a second analog stick is a disadvantage for that generation, there's no arguing otherwise. But, the Dreamcast analog stick is far more precise and sensitive than any other analog controller I have tested, and the analog triggers blow the balls off of the Dual Shock 2's pressure sensitive buttons. Once the 3D Saturn Pad introduced analog triggers, every controller needed to have them. It might be silly to compare stock gamepads, but the only reason people buy third party gamepads around here is to save money from the official one, and virtually nobody buys joysticks or steering wheels.

For anything but First Person Shooters and 2D Fighters I find the Dreamcast pad nearly ideal, even though the form factor is a little uncomfortable if you squeeze it. I can't grip NES, Master System, Genesis or SNES controllers either though, so I'm used to holding control pads loosely.

In regard to the Saturn gen 2 gamepad, I think it is worthy of note that I can play almost any game with it except First Person Shooters.

[Barone]

Man, we're butting heads again. The Dreamcast controller's form factor and lack of a second analog stick is a disadvantage for that generation, there's no arguing otherwise. But, the Dreamcast analog stick is far more precise and sensitive than any other analog controller I have tested, and the analog triggers blow the balls off of the Dual Shock 2's pressure sensitive buttons. Once the 3D Saturn Pad introduced analog triggers, every controller needed to have them. It might be silly to compare stock gamepads, but the only reason people buy third party gamepads around here is to save money from the official one, and virtually nobody buys joysticks or steering wheels.

For anything but First Person Shooters and 2D Fighters I find the Dreamcast pad nearly ideal, even though the form factor is a little uncomfortable if you squeeze it. I can't grip NES, Master System, Genesis or SNES controllers either though, so I'm used to holding control pads loosely.

In regard to the Saturn gen 2 gamepad, I think it is worthy of note that I can play almost any game with it except First Person Shooters.

My point is that is silly to bring a controller argument in a discussion about quality of games or when you're comparing different versions of the same game.

My only problem with the 3D Pad is that it lacks L2, R2; very useful for racing games.

[sheath]

My point is that is silly to bring a controller argument in a discussion about quality of games or when you're comparing different version of the same game.

My only problem with the 3D Pad is that it lacks L2, R2; very useful for racing games.

I suppose those could feel more like paddle shifters than using two of the face buttons for gear up/down. I picked up Le Mans 24hrs the other day for PS2 though, and man taking off is nearly impossible like it is on the Dreamcast. By default they added some kind of traction control assist to make it easier with the "analog" buttons, and I just can't use the second analog stick for acceleration, it feels incredibly unnatural.

Obviously if wheels or specific same third party controllers are being used this part of the discussion is moot, but for the average user, and even for my average game time, the stock controllers do matter. I like to get familiar with one controller for most games and just use it so I don't have to think about the controls and can enjoy the game. I bought the Interact steering wheel for the Dreamcast early on, but the set up time caused me to use the gamepad more often than not until I actually found it very responsive.

[Barone]

I suppose those could feel more like paddle shifters than using two of the face buttons for gear up/down. I picked up Le Mans 24hrs the other day for PS2 though, and man taking off is nearly impossible like it is on the Dreamcast. By default they added some kind of traction control assist to make it easier with the "analog" buttons, and I just can't use the second analog stick for acceleration, it feels incredibly unnatural.

Obviously if wheels or specific same third party controllers are being used this part of the discussion is moot, but for the average user, and even for my average game time, the stock controllers do matter. I like to get familiar with one controller for most games and just use it so I don't have to think about the controls and can enjoy the game. I bought the Interact steering wheel for the Dreamcast early on, but the set up time caused me to use the gamepad more often than not until I actually found it very responsive.

I'm not saying the stock controllers don't matter at all; but judging if this or that version of a game is better based on the controller (I'm not talking about the software part of the in game controls) sounds totally nonsense to me. No one judges a controller based on the library of games for that given system, it seems to be considered absurd to the common sense; so why the opposite is so common?
All that I know is that this argument arises every time someone is trying to advocate an inferior version of a game. Go figure...
Example of a typical nonsense quote: "Genesis version of SFII is better than the SNES's 'cause the 6 button controller fits it perfectly". OK, cool. Than if you buy a third party 6 button controller for the SNES the game itself will, magically, became better??? Oh, no, I forgot, 3rd parties are out of question...
When people went to buy their 6 button controller for their Genesis it's alright 'cause it said "SEGA" on the controller (even if it's a Majesto one); a SNES owner buying a 3rd party 6 button controller is an heresy and that's why it's no valid in any discussion and I'm always wrong.
The same goes for Saturn and PS1.
*shrugs*

About the analog sticks for acceleration/breaking, they're just a cheap solution IMO. If you think about it, using the same analog stick for acceleration and breaking will detract you the option to break and accelerate at the same time (no, it's no an absurd in racing, go check all Schumacher's championships in F1, he used to always press the gas pedal, at least, 40% of pressure even when breaking; this trick gave him a boost out of the corners) and makes your reaction time worse, despite being much more stressful than if you're using separate controls.
The precision for steering with the cheapo Sony's sticks is also bad. Not only 'cause they use cheap parts but the design of the controller gives you little support to avoid shaking hands/thumbs during the gameplay. In this aspect the Saturn 3D Pad and the Dreamcast controller are much better, yes.
The best for steering in a hand controller would be a third analog input exactly like the one used in the Micomsoft XE-1 AP (the "stick" at the right most of the controller). It would give you far better precision, far better support to avoid shaking and other "interferences" and, last but not least, would exclude the very annoying problem of moving the stick a bit up or down when you wanted just to move it to left or right (it kills your precision).
So, IMO, the "ideal" analog controller would have one common analog stick for full 3D movement, analog independent triggers for accelerating and breaking, and an analog slider like that for steering. It would surely look ugly and be expensive, that's why nobody does one like that.

[sheath]

I agree completely on using the analog for accel brake, it just doesn't work well. On the which game is better based on controllers argumentation, it is just that people can't seem to separate qualifiers from personal preference. One can say they prefer to play SF2 on Genesis with the 6-button pad, but one cannot prove it is quantitatively or qualitatively better because of the controller. It is this kind of higher reasoning that the average forum goer is not aspiring to in the first place.

[vintagegamecrazy]

I'll bring this thread back to its roots by saying that Racing Aces and the Japanese exclusive Devil's Course should've been 32X exclusives. These two games are not bad in and of themselves but just suffer from under powered hardware and are just what the 32X needed to shine with. I think they could've been killer apps for the struggling 32X had they come out for it.

[The Jackal]

I've been using those Ascii pads for years; great, responsive controllers.

[j_factor]

Example of a typical nonsense quote: "Genesis version of SFII is better than the SNES's 'cause the 6 button controller fits it perfectly". OK, cool. Than if you buy a third party 6 button controller for the SNES the game itself will, magically, became better??? Oh, no, I forgot, 3rd parties are out of question...

For the longest time I didn't even know that 6-button game pads (not joysticks) for the SNES even existed. They're pretty rare, I've still never seen one in person. And that one that was made by Capcom with the d-pad and buttons on a different "plane" looks awkward to me. But I can only say it "looks awkward" based on a few pics on the internet, because I've still never seen one in person. I even looked for one at two different CGE's, I went through giant bins of miscellaneous controllers, not to find any.

And when I used to have this argument with SNES fans (before I knew those controllers existed), none of them ever said "I bought a third-party controller that was just as good". They all said that they did something like assign L and R to medium punch and medium kick and just not use them.

When people went to buy their 6 button controller for their Genesis it's alright 'cause it said "SEGA" on the controller (even if it's a Majesto one); a SNES owner buying a 3rd party 6 button controller is an heresy and that's why it's no valid in any discussion and I'm always wrong.

It's not heresy, it's just almost nobody does it except you.

[Barone]

I agree completely on using the analog for accel brake, it just doesn't work well. On the which game is better based on controllers argumentation, it is just that people can't seem to separate qualifiers from personal preference. One can say they prefer to play SF2 on Genesis with the 6-button pad, but one cannot prove it is quantitatively or qualitatively better because of the controller. It is this kind of higher reasoning that the average forum goer is not aspiring to in the first place.

I easily accept the "plays better" term, I just reject to see the game being better when it's just the controller which is superior.

I've been using those Ascii pads for years; great, responsive controllers.

Yep, one of the few brands with some quality.

For the longest time I didn't even know that 6-button game pads (not joysticks) for the SNES even existed. They're pretty rare, I've still never seen one in person. And that one that was made by Capcom with the d-pad and buttons on a different "plane" looks awkward to me. But I can only say it "looks awkward" based on a few pics on the internet, because I've still never seen one in person. I even looked for one at two different CGE's, I went through giant bins of miscellaneous controllers, not to find any.

And when I used to have this argument with SNES fans (before I knew those controllers existed), none of them ever said "I bought a third-party controller that was just as good". They all said that they did something like assign L and R to medium punch and medium kick and just not use them.

It's not heresy, it's just almost nobody does it except you.

I just said that as an example, I don't expect many people to do that... It's just how I see it, a game well developed doesn't deserve to be blamed due to a controller poorly designed and/or manufactured with cheapo components.
The controller you described is the Soldier Pad, it also has a 3DO version (poor 3DO... nobody talks about it, not even to criticize its bad pad).
Capcom fighters do feel awkward with the SNES/PS1 layout, but SNK ones fit perfectly.

I'll bring this thread back to its roots by saying that Racing Aces and the Japanese exclusive Devil's Course should've been 32X exclusives. These two games are not bad in and of themselves but just suffer from under powered hardware and are just what the 32X needed to shine with. I think they could've been killer apps for the struggling 32X had they come out for it.

Racing Aces is victim of poor programming on the Sega CD. They didn't use any of the Sega CD special capabilities to help it run any better.
But, yes, also for the colors it could have been much better on the 32X.

Guilty Gear on the Saturn would have been great too.

[Raijin]

Woah guys, the only reason I said the control scheme for Megaman X on the Genesis wouldn't have been good is simply because I didn't know an SNES-like controller existed for it. That Ascii controller looks like it would be a good controller really, so I'm all for using something like that if Megaman X would have ever gotten a release on the Genesis.

HOWEVER, Megaman X was initially released in 1993, and the first 6 button controller was released in 1993 as well iirc. If Capcom would have released Megaman X on the Genesis at all, there is a good chance that it might have been a 3 button only control scheme, because they were probably working on that game since the year before, not knowing that a 6 button controller would be on the way. That means to switch weapons, you'd have to pause the game. In that case, the Ascii would still be good to use for it, sure, but not as much had they released it with a 6 button control scheme, making full use of the buttons, and making the Ascii shoulder buttons useful. In my opinion, Capcom releasing it with a 3 button control scheme wouldn't be acceptable for the flow of that series, since it's a fast paced action game, so pausing to change weapons seriously breaks the pace of that series, and it would have been a huge disadvantage to the already great control scheme the SNES version has.

[zetastrike]

The ideal control sceme for MMX on the genesis would be A (shoot) B (jump) C (x buster when using weapon) Mode (dash) and X and Z switching weapons. I really prefer mapping dash to a shoulder button in the SNES and PSX games as it makes it much easier to shoot while dashing and dash-jumping. I hate using the A or O button to dash. If I do, I put my index finger on it while I use my thumbs for jump and shoot, which is not comfortable.