the myth of the sega cd

[kool kitty89]

SCD FMV may not have been the bulk of the titles, but Sega advertising pushed almost nothing else but FMV on TV. Stores stocked more of the FMV games than anything else, and pushed FMV games on buyers. There's a reason people think FMV was the ONLY thing the SCD did - because that was what Sega told them. Most of the non-FMV games I got later when Sega liquidated the SCD, which is good as I got them for like $2 a game.

From most of the print ads and all the TV commercials/informercials I've seen for the Sega CD and MCD (in Europe), there actually isn't that definitive an emphasis on FMV titles alone (read FMV as "interactive movie").

In fact, the bigger issue is that there were next to zero commercials for any specific games, and mostly just for the system as a whole with montages of various games. It's these montages that I'm going by, and while they tended to contain a lot of FMV, they nearly always showed off a significant amount of non FMV titles too. Batman Returns in particular was almost always shown in the major TV ads.
The pack-in game choices and some of the viral marketing aspects (and scandals) were probably more of an issue than the actual TV ads themselves. (aside from the big problem of not really promoting specific titles in general, by name)

It's also true that Sega couldn't rely on NEC's main CD selling point in Japan (awesome soundtracks -redbook audio was THE original selling point of the system in Japan). However, multimedia should have been the selling point for CD based games in general.
I mean this in the broadest sense, including redbook music, but going way beyond that with voice acting and/or cutscenes used to enhance to existing genres -as was progressing in computer games at the time- as well as using streaming video in those areas plus potential for some interactive movie type games and "conventional" genres using in-game streaming video as part of gameplay and/or in cutscenes. OR, even using "normal" gameplay styles for the core gameplay, but including interactive movie mechanics for branching dynamic cutscenes. (few games did that, and fewer did it well on any platforms, but that was one more thing Wing Commander III and IV did right)

The added 2D/3D/sound capabilities allowed by the system (and added resources in general) would obviously have applied to enhancing technical game capabilities in general.


There's the separate issue of (strangely) limited software support on the Japanese end (since it was supposed to be a direct competitor to the 2nd most popular console in Japan -the PCE CD), but I'm not sure if there's a solid answer on this known.

Its remarkable how well the Dreamcast sold in the short time it was on the market. Even if they felt they had to discontinue in Japan, I'm sure it could have stayed afloat in the US. Compared to the Sega CD and the Sega Saturn, the Dreamcast did almost everything right.

They really didn't give it the chance it deserved...

The Dreamcast only sold well in North America, it pretty much bombed in Japan and Europe for various reasons . . . and THAT was a huge part of why Sega judged it was unrealistic to continue supporting it. It's more complex than that, and there's other potential cost-benefit scenarios to address (and Sega's weak financial position), but that's a big part in any case.

The N64 almost ended up in a similar boat (only really popular in North America), but Nintendo had the advantages of massive cash reserves and strong PR from a very successful previous generation in all regions, 2 things Sega did not have going in with the Dreamcast. They really should at least have been able to hold up better in Europe with the DC, and from the best I've gathered, that was down to really poor marketing. (the polar opposite of what happened in the US)

If Nintendo had pulled all the stops with the SNES nobody ever would have broken their console market dominance. I don't think anything slowed SNES sales in 1991 more than the higher price during the NES' heyday and the Genesis second mass market year. But if anything was worse for sales potential it was all of the magazines reporting slowdown in virtually all of the early SNES games.

Yes, but by that same virtue (NES still being massively popular), Nintnedo's composite market share and profitability were still very high at the time. In fact, had the SNES sold BETTER and detracted heavily from NES sales, Nintendo may have actually been worse off in some respects.

That's because, for whatever reason, the Genesis while just as plentiful is far less desirable these days.

A big part of it is the genres that were big on the SNES that have since gone massive in western popularity, especially RPGs. (similar reason for the relatively high demand/prices for PCE/CD or TGCD)
Brand recognition is obviously a big part of that too though, and retro-Nintendo info/interest is more common in general. (that, and a combination of these 2 things: very high quality games in popular retro-modern genres that are also "big names" so to speak)

It's that magic combination of excellent raw quality and equally excellent mass market acceptance.

night trap thanked it good sales on teh hearings yes, same with mortal kombat. but keep in midn videogamign was still 90% parents buying for their kids and you see why it hurt so much. I suggest you read the history of videogames by steven kent

Take anything you read in that book with a considerable dose of salt . . . it's useful for some things, but poorly fact-checked and very inconsistent in accuracy.

It doesn't require strength to handle fmv. The SNES could do fmv just fine. The PCE CD is the same speed as the Sega-CD and can do fmv at a higher color count than the Genesis can do graphics at all.

Not entirely true: crappy uncompressed FMV fares similarly, but the Sega CD was the only one to implement comprehensive video compression codecs, allowing considerably higher resolutions and/or framerates than otherwise possible. (hence Sewer Shark or Road Avenger to Loadstar, Wirehead, etc)

Not sure about color: PCE could have done better if it used optimized palette use per-tile like better MD FMV did, but most just used 16 colors iirc. (some used 512 wide res to blend dithering better -Sherlock Holms did that)
PCE probably could have handled some compression, but it would be more limited . . . partially by the CPU (7 MHz 6502 vs 12.5 MHz 68000), and partially by the planar pixel format used by the PCE vs packed pixel on the MD. (more CPU overhead to manipulate graphics)

The SNES would have been even worse off with the slow 2.68/3.58 MHz (2.68 in RAM) 65816 . . . unless it got a 2nd CPU in the add-on too. (that siad, the 7.67 MHz 68k in the MD alone -coupled with packed pixels- still would have fared the best in a PCE style bare bones CD drive)

[bultje112]

the dreamcast was a great succes in europe. I have no idea where you got that nonsense from. it was equally succesful as in usa. especially in sega strongholds like uk, spain, portugal and italy, where it was relativele more popular than in usa.

[kool kitty89]

Spot on , It had a massive impact and helped the game sell . To be fair Night Trap is actually a very good game imo

This got me thinking again:
With the game's filming/editing complete in 1987, I wonder why they didn't try pitching it as a Laserdisc arcade game . . . makes more sense than trying to cram it into the cable broadcast or VHS contraptions it was originally planned for. Maybe LD games weren't marketable at that point, though they were a couple years prior, and popped up again around the time of the Sega CD's US launch. (too close to be a reactionary thing timing-wise, more like parallel/coincidence)
Same for Sewer Shark in '89 . . . and both would have looked and (to lesser extent) sounded miles better too.

Actually, I wonder why they didn't consider a laserdisc based hone console in the first place. (the interviews I've seen don't mention that, aside from a reference to inspiration from plans for LD games on the colecovision -something the 7800 also had plans for in 1984)

the dreamcast was a great succes in europe. I have no idea where you got that nonsense from. it was equally succesful as in usa. especially in sega strongholds like uk, spain, portugal and italy, where it was relativele more popular than in usa.

I'd gotten the impression from a lot of places (sales numbers, and anecdotal discussions) that the DC was selling rather poorly in Europe . . . not sure what to say to this, though.

[Team Andromeda]

I wonder why they didn't try pitching it as a Laserdisc arcade game

Play time. The average Arcade game playtime back into the day was 3 to 5 mins . NightTrap intro alone goes in longer than that .

Same for Sewer Shark in '89 . . . and both would have looked and (to lesser extent) sounded miles better too

Well that could have worked in the Arcades , but why do people like this game so much ?. It's one of the worst FMV games I've ever played on the Mega CD

the dreamcast was a great succes in europe. I have no idea where you got that nonsense from

No it wasn't . Europe and Japan are where the DC just did not perform well at all . Kitty is quite right on this

[bultje112]

This got me thinking again:
With the game's filming/editing complete in 1987, I wonder why they didn't try pitching it as a Laserdisc arcade game . . . makes more sense than trying to cram it into the cable broadcast or VHS contraptions it was originally planned for. Maybe LD games weren't marketable at that point, though they were a couple years prior, and popped up again around the time of the Sega CD's US launch. (too close to be a reactionary thing timing-wise, more like parallel/coincidence)
Same for Sewer Shark in '89 . . . and both would have looked and (to lesser extent) sounded miles better too.

Actually, I wonder why they didn't consider a laserdisc based hone console in the first place. (the interviews I've seen don't mention that, aside from a reference to inspiration from plans for LD games on the colecovision -something the 7800 also had plans for in 1984)





I'd gotten the impression from a lot of places (sales numbers, and anecdotal discussions) that the DC was selling rather poorly in Europe . . . not sure what to say to this, though.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/534957.stm

Like a box office smash
Sega said it had passed the million mark six weeks ahead of its prediction.
The Dreamcast has also achieved strong sales in Europe, with 400,000 sold since it was launched on 14 October.

the article was one month after european launch. in europe in 1 month time 400,000 dreamcasts were sold, where in usa in over 2 months 1 million dreamcasts were sold. they were selling evenly in usa and europe. it was a very big succes in europe and it continued on, there were also close to 50,000 pre-orders for dreamcast in uk alone. something never seen before for a console. I remember visiting london around late 2000 and people literally fighting over virtua tennis copies in the shops. there were more dreamcast games in display than psx or n64.

[Team Andromeda]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/534957.stm

Like a box office smash
Sega said it had passed the million mark six weeks ahead of its prediction.
The Dreamcast has also achieved strong sales in Europe, with 400,000 sold since it was launched on 14 October.

the article was one month after european launch. in europe in 1 month time 400,000 dreamcasts were sold, where in usa in over 2 months 1 million dreamcasts were sold. they were selling evenly in usa and europe. it was a very big succes in europe and it continued on, there were also close to 50,000 pre-orders for dreamcast in uk alone. something never seen before for a console. I remember visiting london around late 2000 and people literally fighting over virtua tennis copies in the shops. there were more dreamcast games in display than psx or n64.

That's the USA mate . Sadly the Japan launch was a complete mess with SEGA not being able to even make 200,000 DC and having to cancel hundreds of pre orders , while the DC did well on its launch in Europe it was let down with poor follow up sale, a joke of on-line service and very poor software sales In Europe the DC was outsold by the PS and N64 .

[xelement5x]

Actually, I wonder why they didn't consider a laserdisc based hone console in the first place. (the interviews I've seen don't mention that, aside from a reference to inspiration from plans for LD games on the colecovision -something the 7800 also had plans for in 1984)

They did make a LaserDisc based home console partnered with Pioneer, it's called the LaserActive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_LaserActive

One thing that contributed to its lack of success is was the high cost of the units, plus manufacturing the LDs as well. However, you haven't lived until you've played a MegaLD. They're essentially just massive SegaCD games, but it's amazing to see something that looks like a early PS1 title come out of a Genesis/Mega Drive variant.

[bultje112]

That's the USA mate . Sadly the Japan launch was a complete mess with SEGA not being able to even make 200,000 DC and having to cancel hundreds of pre orders , while the DC did well on its launch in Europe it was let down with poor follow up sale, a joke of on-line service and very poor software sales In Europe the DC was outsold by the PS and N64 .

can you even read? it's about europe. I even took the quote out of the article.

the dc was outsold by n64? sources? n64 was a pretty big failure in europe, like basically any nintendo system except the wii. dreamcast was not. and the on-line service was as much "a joke" as usa's was.

[kool kitty89]

the dc was outsold by n64? sources? n64 was a pretty big failure in europe, like basically any nintendo system except the wii. dreamcast was not. and the on-line service was as much "a joke" as usa's was.

Aside from the actual European sales figure issue of the DC (which is very interesting), it still wouldn't be surprising if the N64, or at very least PS1 outsold it for the first year or so, especially in software sales. That wouldn't have been a negative indication in general, just typical.

New systems take a while to transition in, and they're more expensive and have much less software available. Even with the DC's low price it was still 2x that of the PS1 and N64. On the software end, you've got massive install bases and existing flow of software on the market.
It wasn't much different for the SNES/Genesis vs NES (or SMS in Europe), or PS1/Saturn/N64 vs SNES/Genesis.

Also, the NES was relatively successful in mainland Europe and outsold the Master System in several regions (esp Germany), but overall the SMS sold better . . . largely due to the massive success in the UK and that being the strongest European video game sales market in general at the time iirc. The N64 wasn't a massive hit in Europe (not like North America), but I'd gotten the impression that it did OK in second place beside the PS1.

SNES vs MD was much more broad and even overall . . . both were very successful, trading blows depending on region (esp with Europe's console market expanding at the time), and as with the previous generation, Germany was a Nintendo stronghold. Unlike the SMS, the SNES at least managed to compete reasonably with the MD in the UK, but was significantly less popular overall. (as a whole, Europe wasn't that far off from the situation in North America . . . a modestly greater bias for the MD, but as it was there's good evidence that the Genesis outsold the SNES in sheer hardware units in NA as well -actual market share at a given time, revenue, and software sales are other matters though . . . the lower average prices of Sega stuff would deflate the revenue comparison too)

[A Black Falcon]

can you even read? it's about europe. I even took the quote out of the article.

the dc was outsold by n64? sources? n64 was a pretty big failure in europe, like basically any nintendo system except the wii. dreamcast was not. and the on-line service was as much "a joke" as usa's was.

The N64 sold 6.75 million systems in the "Other" region (Nintendo breaks its sales into The Americas, Japan, and Other. So, "Other" would mostly be PAL sales.). The Dreamcast sold 10.5 million systems worldwide. It would be shocking if the DC actually outsold the N64 in PAL-land. Going by the numbers, it's pretty much impossible for that to have happened.

Aside from the actual European sales figure issue of the DC (which is very interesting), it still wouldn't be surprising if the N64, or at very least PS1 outsold it for the first year or so, especially in software sales. That wouldn't have been a negative indication in general, just typical.

New systems take a while to transition in, and they're more expensive and have much less software available. Even with the DC's low price it was still 2x that of the PS1 and N64. On the software end, you've got massive install bases and existing flow of software on the market.
It wasn't much different for the SNES/Genesis vs NES (or SMS in Europe), or PS1/Saturn/N64 vs SNES/Genesis.

Yeah, and then the DC died only a couple of years in, cutting off the later parts of its life when usually a lot of systems sell.

Also, the NES was relatively successful in mainland Europe and outsold the Master System in several regions (esp Germany), but overall the SMS sold better . . . largely due to the massive success in the UK and that being the strongest European video game sales market in general at the time iirc. The N64 wasn't a massive hit in Europe (not like North America), but I'd gotten the impression that it did OK in second place beside the PS1.

No, Sony pretty much blew Nintendo out of the water in Europe with the PS1/N64... even assuming that almost all of that 6.75 million number is from Europe (and it surely is; it'd be Europe and non-Japan parts of Asia only, I'd think, and that latter one has to be a small portion of it), that's still way lower than whatever Sony sold there I am sure. It surely was second place, but a distant second...

SNES vs MD was much more broad and even overall . . . both were very successful, trading blows depending on region (esp with Europe's console market expanding at the time), and as with the previous generation, Germany was a Nintendo stronghold. Unlike the SMS, the SNES at least managed to compete reasonably with the MD in the UK, but was significantly less popular overall. (as a whole, Europe wasn't that far off from the situation in North America . . . a modestly greater bias for the MD,

The problem with SNES/Genesis sales in Europe is, of course, that it's really hard to figure out even a guess at what Sega sold there...

but as it was there's good evidence that the Genesis outsold the SNES in sheer hardware units in NA as well -actual market share at a given time, revenue, and software sales are other matters though . . . the lower average prices of Sega stuff would deflate the revenue comparison too)

Some people here have suggested that Sega actually sold more overall, but there's no definite proof either way. I guess the argument hinges on that Nintendo's "The Americas" label probably also includes some Central and South American sales, while Sega's US numbers are US-only. But these are all fuzzy things without definite numbers. All we really know is that it was very close.

[MrSega]

The Sega CD was a better leap forward in tech, more suitable add-on for the Genesis, and meaningful experiment in gaming than the 32X was.

32X was just a needless piece of shat that insulted the hardware it was attached to, and had no place in the market.

MEGA CD was released in Japan on December 7,1991. It was originally developed and planned with Pioneer as a Laser Disc hybrid for Mega Drive in 1989 and would have been based entirely off of System 24 Arcade hardware. It was retooled in late 1990 into a CD add on hybrid designed as contender against PC Engine CD after the Pioneer partnership went nowhere with a partnership with JVC. What's left of the Mega LD project ended up on "LaserActive" and through a negotiation, Pioneer was given the rights to use Mega Drive and Mega CD Bios' with LaserActive which can play both Mega Drive and Mega CD games.

The SEGA CD was released in North America on November 24,1992. It's early library consisted mainly of FMV shovelware thanks to the fact that SEGA of America brought the patents from Hasbro and Radio Shack for their failed VHS console project "NEMO" and it was sold with a non top loader unit manufactured ironically by Sony.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control-Vision

SEGA CD's library however got better in 1993. Thanks to the inclusion of well rounded Genesis ports, better 3rd party support and great first party B titles. The redesigned top loader attachment became a hit among consumers due to its sleek design. The marketing also improved and made the whole concept more appealing.

Granted the later FMV games like Prize Fighter and Night Trap were fairly controversial. Though lame, they were FAR superior to the ones developed on 3DO and CD-i.

By 1994, SEGA was moving on from SEGA CD, SOJ was readying Saturn(after scrapping GigaDrive in early 1993 and Jupiter in September), SOA was readying Mars/32X(which came after Joe Miller rejected Hideki Sato's idea for an upgraded Genesis build with System 32 components "Sega Neptune") so although, SEGA CD was in between, since it had been selling so well, it was in dire need of more games. But SEGA made the poor mistake of abandoning its consumer base for SEGA CD.

The 32X was not needed. But it was the result of a company divided between its two divisions, Sega of America saw dollar signs in its 16-bit line and wanted to keep it going, SEGA of Japan was trying to get an assured upper hand on the 32-bit market and wanted its Lockheed Martin expierments to see light of day. Neptune was their way of salvaging the failed "Sega Mars/GigaDrive" and wanted to assure SOA that it would be backwards compatible with Genesis. SOJ even briefly considered the recently scrapped "Jupiter" to have a non Japanese rollout for Holiday 1994 so that it could give them more time to teach 3rd party developers how to properly program Saturn, but SOA didn't think consumers were interested in basic 3D or enhanced 2D tech. During this R&D debacle caused by having too many chipsets, SEGA CD was ignored and its consumers were becoming impatient.

These same consumers saw right through the 32X idea. They knew it was a cheap half-assed cash in. They felt like SEGA should have just stuck with the Genesis and SEGA CD and wait for the new systems.

In the end by its demise in early 1996, SEGA CD sold over 6 million units in North America which is pretty solid for an underrated system.

[Moirai]

I still find it hard to believe the Sega CD could have sold better than the Saturn in the US....

[A Black Falcon]

Isn't that 6 million number a worldwide number, not US only?

... Yeah, it is. 6 million worldwide. I don't know what the regional estimates are, but it is quite possible that the Sega CD sold similarly to the Saturn in the US; Saturn sold ~2.5 million, right? That's probably a good guess for US Sega CD sales too. And I know that this is just personal experience, but looking around here, I believe it; Sega CD games are probably slightly more common than Saturn ones are, actually.

[kool kitty89]

Well that could have worked in the Arcades , but why do people like this game so much ?. It's one of the worst FMV games I've ever played on the Mega CD

I had decent fun with Sewer Shark . . . personally I like the premise more than Night Trap and the gameplay overall. (partially due to clunky control on Night Trap, it probably works better with a Mouse/keyboard, but I've never tried the PC version -in arcades, it probably would have had dedicated buttons rather than a pointer driven menu -keyboard could have allowed that too)

Video quality aside, my main complaints about Sewer Shark (on the MD) would be the poorly arranged, grating synth music, and the frustrating difficulty later on. Still, both of those games are more fun than most 80s laser disc arcade games. (hell, if it wasn't for the action cues in Road Avenger, I'd say Sewer Shark would be more fun to play too -flying blind with vague implications of actions and tons of trial and error gets old really fast)

That said, coupling Sewer Shark's cutscenes and theme with a different gameplay style might have been more interesting. (3rd person FMV rail shooter might work, but that might not be much better -Novastorm managed it OK though; a Silpheed style PoV vertical shooter might have been really interesting, if designed well) Rebel assault had some mixed (good and bad) examples of FMV railshooting . . . though one of the huge problems there was managing remotely acceptable video quality while implementing the overscan/panning function. (IMO that might have worked out a lot better with a smaller screen and a lower compression ratio -both smaller "overscan" screen and viewing screen, so you keep the neat panning effect) That, and better color use should have been possible. (uses a single 16 color palette for all sprites and the video, no multi-palette tilemap FMV optimization -which better FMV uses- and not even per-frame 16 color palette swaps) The PC and 3DO versions also suffered from excessive compression artifacting due to similar trade-offs, though at least without the framerate issues. (in those cases, requiring a 2x CD-ROM drive and using 2 discs would have been better . . . assuming the 3DO can handle 2x data rate cinepak)

-On a technical side note though: Rebel Assault is probably the most heavily compressed and highest resolution (overscan) example of FMV on the Sega CD. Judging by the artifacting, it also seems to be a more direct derivative of normal Cinepak (Mac/PC/3DO/Saturn/etc) rather than the Sega developed namesake that's only broadly similar. (Rebel Assault shows visible use of 4x4 pixel blocks and interframe compression -motion compensation- . . . it actually makes me wonder if that might have worked better than Sega's "Cinepak" or similar 3rd party formats had it been further optimized -especially color usage- and used at more sane compression ratios)

The N64 sold 6.75 million systems in the "Other" region (Nintendo breaks its sales into The Americas, Japan, and Other. So, "Other" would mostly be PAL sales.). The Dreamcast sold 10.5 million systems worldwide. It would be shocking if the DC actually outsold the N64 in PAL-land. Going by the numbers, it's pretty much impossible for that to have happened.

I'm pretty sure we were talking about market share (immediate sales) and not aggregate install base. So the question would be whether the DC was selling better than the N64 (hardware and/or software) during 1999 (or 2000, for that matter), and not whether it sold better overall.

Yeah, and then the DC died only a couple of years in, cutting off the later parts of its life when usually a lot of systems sell.

Not to mention the points where systems tend to become profitable, especially from the 90s onward. (where introduction overhead became far greater)

No, Sony pretty much blew Nintendo out of the water in Europe with the PS1/N64... even assuming that almost all of that 6.75 million number is from Europe (and it surely is; it'd be Europe and non-Japan parts of Asia only, I'd think, and that latter one has to be a small portion of it), that's still way lower than whatever Sony sold there I am sure. It surely was second place, but a distant second...

I didn't mean the N64 held its own against the PS1, but that it was at least on the map and a significant platform in the region. (in the UK specifically, I've gotten the impression that the N64 was a good bit more popular than the NES had been, at least)

Some people here have suggested that Sega actually sold more overall, but there's no definite proof either way. I guess the argument hinges on that Nintendo's "The Americas" label probably also includes some Central and South American sales, while Sega's US numbers are US-only. But these are all fuzzy things without definite numbers. All we really know is that it was very close.

I doubt south/central america sales even had a substantial bearing on things . . . though maybe a slightly noticeable one including Mexico and Canada vs US sales alone (not all of North America).
There's the issue of Sega's North American sales in general too, but those figures range higher than the SNES's "Americas" sales. (I think 22 million Sega+Majesco composite sales of the Genesis in the US was settled on as a reasonable estimate based on composite sources)

[Armoured Priest]

oh yeah? what working designs sega cd games were done on turbografx first then? :rolleyes:

Um...what are you talking about? While admittedly my comment there was a mis-read on my part, at no point did I imply that there were any ports of TG-16 CD games on the Sega CD. My comment was comment concerning Working Designs in general. The mis-read comes in with ifkz specifically referring to the Lunar games which I didn't catch the first time and thought ifkz was talking about Working Designs in general.