10 Atari Games that caused the Crash of 1984.

[goldenband]

In some parts of the country, tons of women still refer to their female friends (especially close ones) as "my girlfriend". Very disorienting, especially when you've gotten used to it and then one of them does randomly turn out to be a lesbian.

[Iron Lizard]

Its was the Control Deck set that came with SMB and they later added SMB as a pack-in but before the action set. The Action Set didn't hit till 1988.

[MrSega]

In some parts of the country, tons of women still refer to their female friends (especially close ones) as "my girlfriend". Very disorienting, especially when you've gotten used to it and then one of them does randomly turn out to be a lesbian.

It wasn't considered akward for hetrosexual females to refer to each other as "Girlfriends" during the 1980s. Lesbians were referred to as "Lesbos".

[j_factor]

Funny how you don't see heterosexual men refer to their male friends as "boyfriends".

[gamevet]

We were kidding, I hope.

[tz101]

I got NES Control Deck for Christmas 1985 and it was not a test market. Came with only SMB, no Duck Hunt.

[A Black Falcon]

Only because you specifically said IBM, not just PC. Just a nitpick.

IBM PC and PC are synonyms. No difference there in meaning.

Pretty much, though I would say the PC didn't become truly dominant for games until around 1990. People didn't exactly buy a new computer every year, so it took a couple years of sales dominance to be reflected in the games.

1990? I think that it was definitely dominant by that point, but I'd put the start point a bit before that. Also I'd mention that it was mostly Apple II or C64 to PC movement; the other 16/32-bit computers never got much of a foothold in the US, apart from those few Amiga or Atari ST diehards. Also, given that by the mid '80s the PC was the business computer of choice, it makes sense that that would, over a period of years, trickle down to gaming too, as indeed it did. But sure, it did take a few years, and other platforms had some kind of market share even in the US into the early '90s; the '80s weren't like the '90s, where one platform absolutely dominated computer gaming (in the US).

SimCity still "counts", but for Amiga rather than C64. The PC version came after (and a C64 port was released too).

The PC version's what most people played, though, of course. That or the SNES. But true, they weren't the original.

Like I said about Project Firestart, it's not exactly a household name. But it's the earliest clear example of a survival horror game. Seven Cities of Gold was one of the first popular strategy games (more popular on C64, I think, than the Atari original).

For those latter two, my question is, were they influential at the time, or did people go back later and say "this was like later games"?

I don't agree with that. If we're talking sales and number of people playing, C64 versions were often more popular than other versions.

If we're talking importance for game design, both the Atari 8-bit and C64 were very significant. You may not have heard of Project Firestart or Seven Cities of Gold but the former was survival horror pre-Alone in the Dark and the latter was an ambitious strategy/exploration game. There were plenty of innovative US/Can developed classics that didn't originate on Apple or PC: Habitat, Aztec Challenge, Space Taxi, Alternate Reality, The Train, Raid Over Moscow, and others gamevet mentioned.

I've never heard of most of those games, and nor have most other people, I suspect... they may have been innovative at the time, but didn't leave a lasting mark on gamers. Apart from Habitat, which I think I've heard of before (it's some sim game or something, maybe?), the only game in this quote that I've actually heard of before is Space Taxi, and that's only because of a Youtube video of the game I watched, like, this week. If we're talking about games that had a major impact on the industry and became lasting successes, or launched/continued the careers of major game developers or game development teams, do any of those games qualify at all? They don't on the first point, but I don't know about the second, as I don't know the games.

I know PC games well, and somewhat Apple II games either because I played some, or because that platform had so many well-known titles, but C64, Amiga, or Atari ST? Apart from what I've read or watched on the internet, I don't know most of that stuff... I've never really gotten too interested in old computer emulation either. I've tried Amiga and Atari ST emulation before, but it was years ago and pretty much only for Factor 5 and Llamasoft games, didn't try any others I think. And of course, I wanted to try those because I liked their PC/console games. I have never played a Commodore 64 game.

Also, at least around here, you also don't really see old computer games and equipment around to buy, like you do for old console games... it's easy enough to find Atari 2600 games, but pretty much any '80s computer game? Unless it's a late '80s PC game, forget it. And even then, that would be an uncommon find. It probably doesn't help that lots of the floppy disks those games came on have gone bad... I've bought (locally) several '90s PC games in recent years that had bad floppies in the box. Even Mac or Apple II stuff is hard to come by to say the least. Forget about anything else... though I did see a Coleco Adam tape game in a store once, that was the only time I've seen something like that.

Anyway though, of course some C64 games were popular at the time, but did anything become of them on other systems, or after that platform? Some games that did indeed do that have been mentioned (Summer/Winter Games, Maniac Mansion, Pirates!), but far fewer than the Apple II had, certainly.

I'll bet you've heard of M.U.L.E though, It was ported to the NES.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozark_Softscape

I have heard of M.U.L.E., yes, though I've never played it.

Seven Cities of Gold was a pretty popular title at the time. If you run into people that had bought the C64 shortly after it came out, you'd hear a lot of them talk about games like Lode Runner, Jumpman, Archon, Seven Cities of Gold, M.U.L.E. and a little know RPG called Phantasie. All of these games came out for the C64, right around the time when the console market was collapsing.

Here's the ST version of Phantasie. It looks like this guy has already been through the dungeon. The map opens up as you walk around.

Lode Runner, of course I know that one. Did that start on C64? That became a very popular franchise indeed. I never loved it, but they're okay. Lode Runner 64's pretty good... I also liked the PC shareware game Jetpack, which of course is pretty much a Lode Runner variant with a jetpack and a bunch of new weapon and object types.

... Looking it up, actually the first released version of Lode Runner was for the Apple II. Sorry, the Apple II gets that one. (It was first developed for a mainframe, actually, then ported to a second mainframe, but the first home machine the guy ported it to, after those, was the Apple II.)

Jumpman... looking it up, it was first released for the Atari 8-bit line, before getting ports. I do know Jumpman, because of Apogee's early '90s PC clone of the game, Jumpman Lives!. They got sued over the game (because they did it without the rights, I guess) and had to stop distributing it, but I had it back in the early '90s, and thought it was very graphically simple, but pretty good in terms of gameplay. I'd never heard of the original though of course, apart from what it mentions of it in the game (that it's a homage to the original Jumpman, etc.). Apart from that though, I don't think the game had any followups.

As for Archon I've heard of that one, and I know it had some ports and a sequel, but I've never played it myself. But sure, that one had some lasting success too. Looking it up, it looks like it was also first for the Atari 8-bit line, though it got lots of ports of course.

So yeah, those are successful non-PC titles, but one actually did first release as a commercial game on Apple II, and the other two actually started on the Atari 8-bit line. After that, I looked up some more of these games you people have been mentioning... and what do you know?

-Seven Cities of Gold - Yet another that first released on Atari 8-bit computers.

-M.U.L.E. - Same deal, A8 first.

-Phantasie - First released in 1985 for Apple II and Commodore 64. I'm not sure which was the lead development platform.

So yeah, a lot of non-PC titles here, that were mostly successful, but unless Phantasie was C64 first, none actually started out as C64 games.

[gamevet]

I got NES Control Deck for Christmas 1985 and it was not a test market. Came with only SMB, no Duck Hunt.

Sorry, but you did not. It was probably 1986, when they'd sold the SMB bundle nationwide. The test market in NYC only had @ 100k units and they didn't sell out.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...rove_when_.php

The test market wasn't a complete sellout, but it was encouraging enough to eventually go national. At first the system was bundled with two titles, Duck Hunt and Gyromite, meant to show off its Zapper light gun and R.O.B. the Robot accessories (marketing the system as something more like a toy than a game console like Atari's products was probably an easier sell for shops).

By the end of 1986, with the system available nationwide, Nintendo started offering an optional system bundle that included Super Mario Bros. in the box. As the story goes, the move sparked a surge in sales that revived the home video game industry and put an NES in nearly one in five American homes. But was the game available before this?

I hate to use this video as an example, because they take about 10 seconds to gloss over the home computer. They do talk about the struggles Nintendo faced with getting the NES on store shelves though. What's funny about the American retail outlets is, that they don't look at the games being offered on home computers as video games. They probably looked at it as computer software.

I have heard of M.U.L.E., yes, though I've never played it.


Lode Runner, of course I know that one. Did that start on C64? That became a very popular franchise indeed. I never loved it, but they're okay. Lode Runner 64's pretty good... I also liked the PC shareware game Jetpack, which of course is pretty much a Lode Runner variant with a jetpack and a bunch of new weapon and object types.

... Looking it up, actually the first released version of Lode Runner was for the Apple II. Sorry, the Apple II gets that one. (It was first developed for a mainframe, actually, then ported to a second mainframe, but the first home machine the guy ported it to, after those, was the Apple II.)

Jumpman... looking it up, it was first released for the Atari 8-bit line, before getting ports. I do know Jumpman, because of Apogee's early '90s PC clone of the game, Jumpman Lives!. They got sued over the game (because they did it without the rights, I guess) and had to stop distributing it, but I had it back in the early '90s, and thought it was very graphically simple, but pretty good in terms of gameplay. I'd never heard of the original though of course, apart from what it mentions of it in the game (that it's a homage to the original Jumpman, etc.). Apart from that though, I don't think the game had any followups.

As for Archon I've heard of that one, and I know it had some ports and a sequel, but I've never played it myself. But sure, that one had some lasting success too. Looking it up, it looks like it was also first for the Atari 8-bit line, though it got lots of ports of course.

So yeah, those are successful non-PC titles, but one actually did first release as a commercial game on Apple II, and the other two actually started on the Atari 8-bit line. After that, I looked up some more of these games you people have been mentioning... and what do you know?

-Seven Cities of Gold - Yet another that first released on Atari 8-bit computers.

-M.U.L.E. - Same deal, A8 first.

-Phantasie - First released in 1985 for Apple II and Commodore 64. I'm not sure which was the lead development platform.

So yeah, a lot of non-PC titles here, that were mostly successful, but unless Phantasie was C64 first, none actually started out as C64 games.

I never said that the C-64 was the lead platform for these titles. I rightfully acknowledged that a lot of these games were programmed on Apple II computers. One of the more popular titles on the C64, Archon, was created on the Atari 8-bit computers. The C64 may have outsold the computers sold by Apple and Atari, but those were the systems that were being bought by young eager programmers, who were interested in getting a start in gaming software. In the UK, the Speccy gets a nod from a lot of those early game creaters, as the platform they learned to program on.

[NeoZeedeater]

I have never played a Commodore 64 game.

Then why are you saying things like "I think it's quite reasonable to focus mostly on Apple II and PC games, when looking at important US computer game releases."?

[gamevet]

Then why are you saying things like "I think it's quite reasonable to focus mostly on Apple II and PC games, when looking at important US computer game releases."?

No disrespect to A Black Falcon, he just doesn't fall into the age range of people that were around during that era of North American home computers. The PC was pretty primative as a gaming platform in the early '80s.

[A Black Falcon]

Then why are you saying things like "I think it's quite reasonable to focus mostly on Apple II and PC games, when looking at important US computer game releases."?

Why do you think I was listing all those major Apple II releases, and saying that the C64 simply didn't match it in games which made a lasting impact, created franchises beyond that platform, etc? It was to back up that position, of course. I mean, yes, a few good, important C64-first games have been mentioned, but not many compared to the numerous ones on Apple II (comparing anything to the PC is somewhat unfair, of course, given how it's been the dominant platform for like 25 years now).


Basically, I've never thought of the C64 as actually being anywhere near as important in terms of impact on gaming in general as the PC or Apple II, if I've thought about it much... "popular for several years in the mid '80s before people started playing PC games" I guess. I mean, obviously it had an impact on people who grew up playing games on it, but the really important platforms have more than just that. I'm probably somewhat wrong in saying that, as I know it was important in the early to mid '80s, but how much of that actually stuck once the NES came out and changed everything, pretty much? Did the game styles in C64 games continue on to the DOS games of the late '80s to mid '90s that I grew up on, or are the two completely separate? It looks like more the latter than the former, from what I've seen, but given my lack of experience with the C64 I can't say that with any certainty of course.

Of course, there's also the factor that a lot of C64 stuff was European, and at that point European games were definitely distinctly different from American games, in ways that faded by the mid '90s. But that wasn't about that platform in specific, but the regions in general, so I mean US stuff.

No disrespect to A Black Falcon, he just doesn't fall into the age range of people that were around during that era of North American home computers. The PC was pretty primative as a gaming platform in the early '80s.

Yeah, I've been playing computer games for over 20 years, and the PC has always been the dominant platform, and the one I have had... but while you are right that in the early '80s the PC wasn't much of a gaming platform, it certainly was by the late '80s. There are a few PC games from the early '80s, mostly ASCII stuff such as text adventures, though there are a few others too, like Castle Adventure (pretty fun ASCII shareware action-adventure game from 1981). But that game's certainly more of an exception than a rule. But by '87 or '88 things were quite different.

But yes, I'm definitely strongly biased towards the PC, with a slight fondness for the Apple II (the only Apple product I actually sort of like) because I used it some as a kid. I have built up a pretty big console game collection (NES and newer mostly, apart from that Odyssey 2 and an Atari 2600 that I got broken and have not actually used), but I've never had much interest in getting into classic computer collecting, beyond buying some older PC games (CD or, occasionally, floppy) when I see them. Of course though those floppy ones are always chancey, with how the disks seem to be dead a third of the time, but I buy them sometimes anyway. Also as I said that I never, ever see games for those other old computers is a factor too; I much prefer buying local when I can, instead of having to buy everything for a system on EBay and such.

On that note, the one thing I definitely wish I had, but don't, is a PC with a usable 5 1/4" floppy drive in it. If I bought one, would it work in my old (circa-2001) P4 machine? I presume it likely wouldn't in the newer Vista PC. I do have 3.5" drives in both machines, but no 5.25" ones even though I have a few of the disks for that format.

[Thenewguy]

I'm going to really dummy this down for you, since you aren't grasping anything that happened here.


Atari 2600 @ 30 Million---------------------------C64 @ 18-24 million/Apple II @ 6.5 million
Intellivision @ 3 mil-------------------------------Vic-20 @ 3 million
Colecovision @ 2 million--------------------------Atari 8-bit @ 2 million plus
Atari 5200 @ 1 mil (not really known)-----------Tandy TSR-80 CoCo @ 1.3 million

You really do like to waste my time don't you?

Why exactly have you posted a load of worldwide figures here? irrelevant

C64 sold ~8-9 million in the US, best case scenario, in your video the guy said "7 million units in the United States alone" as of 1988, a time during which the US C64 was in the twilight of its life (Euro C64 was still going strong though).

Apple II doesn't count because its in an entirely different demographic.
Apple II doesn't count because its in an entirely different demographic.
Apple II doesn't count because its in an entirely different demographic.
Apple II doesn't count because its in an entirely different demographic.
Apple II doesn't count because its in an entirely different demographic.

Expensive computers existed both before, and after the crash anyway, adding Apple II as a mainstream gaming machine just adds more computers to the later and prior console figures.

VIC-20 is on the wrong side, it was selling whilst consoles were booming, it declined faster than the consoles did.

You have to add pre-crash TI99/4A, Coco, Vic-20 to the Atari 2600 side

Your comparison is retarded in the 1st place because its based on the idea that 100% of people who bought C64s and Apple's did so for gaming and nothing else.

This doesn't even include failures like the TI-99/4 which sold a little over a million. It also doesn't include the IBM PC or the clone PCs.

Most of which happened before the crash, whilst consoles were booming.

The reality of the situation is that most of these computers declined at the same time as the consoles did.

Rare was the only big one in the '80s and they were mostly contracted by American companies (and Nintendo) anyway. Codemasters games weren't licensed by Nintendo so they wouldn't count for the strict terms j_factor was talking about.

Software Creations were also developing games in the 80s too.

Ocean, Elite ~1990

Either you're moving the goalposts, or you're just plain incoherent.

I expect the mid 80s to include 1985, and 1986.

90% of the games you brought up were 1983, and 1984, you do realise that right?

You're basically defining the "crash era's" (your term) out of existence, then.

Everybody knows the crash era started in 1983, and hit fully in 1984, maybe you should read up on it more?

For some more perspective (in case you don't realise this) NES was released in only one US city in 1985, the nationwide release didn't happen until 1986, and the market hadn't fully recovered from the crash until around summer of 1987.

[tz101]

Sorry, but you did not. It was probably 1986, when they'd sold the SMB bundle nationwide. The test market in NYC only had @ 100k units and they didn't sell out.

Sorry, but I did, and you are not the all-knowing authority on all 80's gaming.

[gamevet]

You really do like to waste my time don't you?

If you want to continue believing that the North American videogame market crashed, carry on. NES brought back console gaming to North America. They did not save videogames.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64

Aggressive pricing of the C64 is considered to be a major catalyst in the North American video game crash of 1983. In January 1983, Commodore offered a US$100 rebate in the United States on the purchase of a C64 to anyone trading in another video game console or computer.

Why exactly have you posted a load of worldwide figures here? irrelevant

How's it irrelevant?

Do you think that every 2600, Intellevision, Colecovision and 5200 was sold only in North America? You claimed that the home computer market wasn't as large as the the gaming consoles it replaced, when clearly it was.

C64 sold ~8-9 million in the US, best case scenario, in your video the guy said "7 million units in the United States alone" as of 1988, a time during which the US C64 was in the twilight of its life (Euro C64 was still going strong though).

Yeah, the C-64 had already been here for 6 years in 1988. It had only been in the UK for 5 years by then. I still have Commodore magazines from 1989, so it's not like it still wasn't doing well back then. I even have games that were published in 1989, with one being Dragon Wars. The demise of the 8/16-bit computers in America was caused by the sudden rise of the PC market, with its huge selection of affordable computers.

Apple II doesn't count because its in an entirely different demographic.
Apple II doesn't count because its in an entirely different demographic.
Apple II doesn't count because its in an entirely different demographic.
Apple II doesn't count because its in an entirely different demographic.
Apple II doesn't count because its in an entirely different demographic.

I shouldn't even respond to this stupid man-child tantrum you're throwing here, but I will.

It's already been proven that the Apple II computer was the lead platform for computer game development in North America and that some of the more popular titles (of the time) on the C-64 were not only created on the Apple II, but the Atari 8-bit computers as well.

http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=98

The commodore 64 is, along with the Apple II and the Atari XL computers, the most famous home computer. According to the 2001 edition of Guinness book of records...

This kid must have had a rich family.




None of these computers were being sold as gaming devices. Parents would buy these computers with the intent of using them for personal business needs. Their kids would discover computer games through their schools and friends, and they would buy computer games for use at those locations. My first experience with Castle Wolfenstein on the Apple II was in school.

From 1981-1986, my family had 3 computers in the home, with the first being a TRS-80 CoCO, then my C-64 and finally my dad buying a Tandy 1000 (@$900) in 1986. We were not a rich family, but we found ways to purchase these computers.

My friend Bryan, down the street, didn't have an Atari 2600. His dad bought the family a C-64 in 1984 with everything, including the official monitor; This surely set him back at least $800. He would later buy the expensive Amiga 1000 in 1986.

Expensive computers existed both before, and after the crash anyway, adding Apple II as a mainstream gaming machine just adds more computers to the later and prior console figures.

What is your point here?

People didn't just drop their Atari 2600 controllers to run out and buy computers. It was a slow start in 1979 and started gaining steam around 81 with the release of the Vic-20 and its replacement in the C-64. Apple IIs were in schools across America, where kids got their first experience with computer games that kids and teachers would bring to school. The Apple II went through many revisions over the decade, and kept compatibility in place.

VIC-20 is on the wrong side, it was selling whilst consoles were booming, it declined faster than the consoles did.

And it continued to sell until 1985.

You have to add pre-crash TI99/4A, Coco, Vic-20 to the Atari 2600 side

I'm not going by a time/date line. If that was the case, you can drop millions of Atari 2600s off of the list, since they were sold in the 70s. [sarcasm]And since the better consoles were released, everyone must have quit playing their 2600s.[/sarcasm]

People didn't stop playing games on their Vic-20 because the C-64 came out. They did, however, stop playing their 2600s in favor of computers.

You said that the consoles were replaced by a much smaller computer userbase, when the list of early 80s computers shows you that they'd sold just as well, or better than consoles.

Sorry, but I did, and you are not the all-knowing authority on all 80's gaming.

I wasn't trying to be a know-it-all about the NES. According to gaming history notes, SMB was not here in 1985.

Did you even read what I had quoted below?

SMB was not in North America in 1985. Unless everyone else got it wrong, they weren't selling NES consoles in Indiana, and they didn't have SMB with the NES when they were test marketing it in 1985.

[j_factor]

I expect the mid 80s to include 1985, and 1986.

90% of the games you brought up were 1983, and 1984, you do realise that right?

Of course, I did that on purpose, because I figured anything later you'd find some way to nitpick and say it doesn't count. Instead, you're nitpicking in the opposite way that I predicted. You are impossible to read, you keep shifting the meaning of words so that it sounds like you're talking about one thing, then the next post you claim you were talking about something else. This thread was about the crash, not three years after the crash. The post you were originally replying to (NeoZeedeater's) even said 1984, though you didn't quote that part, and that post was in response to your post about 1983-84 sales figures. 1987 was not part of the discussion, you just started saying that out of thin air.

Everybody knows the crash era started in 1983, and hit fully in 1984, maybe you should read up on it more?

Everything I mentioned there was 1983 and 1984.

Yeah, the C-64 had already been here for 6 years in 1988. It had only been in the UK for 5 years by then. I still have Commodore magazines from 1989, so it's not like it still wasn't doing well back then. I even have games that were published in 1989, with one being Dragon Wars. The demise of the 8/16-bit computers in America was caused by the sudden rise of the PC market, with its huge selection of affordable computers.

The last C64 games in the US were published in 1991. And not just junk either. Star Control, Ultima VI, AD&D Gateway to the Savage Frontier, Death Knights of Krynn, TMNT the arcade game, The Simpsons arcade game, Medieval Lords: Soldier Kings of Europe, Tony La Russa Baseball, and Arachnophobia were all released in 1991 for C64. The C64 was discontinued the next year, so there might be something published in 1992, but I don't know of anything. (If there is, it would likely be a multi-pack, or a republished European game or something.)

With the last releases in '91, that gives a 9 year software life cycle for the C64... which happens to be the same as the NES.

None of these computers were being sold as gaming devices. Parents would buy these computers with the intent of using them for personal business needs. Their kids would discover computer games through their schools and friends, and they would buy computer games for use at those locations. My first experience with Castle Wolfenstein on the Apple II was in school.

Even a lot of C64's were sold in bundles with GEOS and various applications, and the Commodore 128 sold a few million as well. But I think most people would still use them for gaming, even if that wasn't the #1 reason they bought it.