10 Atari Games that caused the Crash of 1984.

[MrSega]

I'm not sure if I should respond to this thread seriously but whatever...


This is backwards. Atari didn't give third-parties freedom. They hated the idea of third-party games which is why they sued Activision. They were anti-third-party. Thankfully the courts were not.

And the idea that the licensee model was necessary to prevent the release of shitty games is bullshit. Nintendo created it to have control over third-parties and make more money (an expense that gets passed on to the consumer ultimately). Fuck Sega, Sony, and Microsoft for continuing it. Computer gaming did just fine without a first-party overlord dictating content as do other entertainment industries. I would say the percentage of shovelware on the Game Boy Color and Wii was worse than on any Atari console. The last couple decades have debunked the bad and/or clone games cause industry crashes theory.

I think part of the reason such a big deal was made of the Atari crash is the way history was originally written down afterwards. Herman's 1994 book Phoenix was an ambitious and pioneering timeline of early gaming but you have to consider the source. I admire what the author accomplished and am a big fan of other aspects of the book and his company but he's also someone who does not consider computer games to be video games. It's a strange bit of semantics but one that wasn't uncommon back in the day. You can see how this would make a console crash look like an epic event. Under this definition, you automatically eliminate the most important sector of Western home gaming in the mid '80s. It's incredibly misleading even though it was never likely the intent of the author to distort history.

It's also worth noting that he uses the word "crash" for dedicated consoles in the 1970s caused by the rise of programmables.

The word "Crash" in regards to the US game industry collapse(it collapsed not crashed) of 1983-1984 is so complex in elaboration and so taken out of context, that people keep assuming Nintendo somehow saved the industry, when they in fact did not.

Atari was already in peril financially well before 1983. Ever since Kassar took over, the company became too over-inflated and was way too overzealous in the type of properties sold and unwise in their business structure and investment plans.


I recall that the "Activision VS Atari" lawsuit and issue occurred in late 1980 and was resolved in the Spring of 1981. Activision's Earliest first published 3rd party releases were "Freeway" and "Ice Hockey". Atari was against the the idea of other companies licensing properties for VCS because there wasn't yet a such thing as royalties or licensing in regards to software properties.

I was referring to the fact that in 1981, this court victory by Activision allowed anyone with a gaming idea to develop games for 2600. When I state "Liberal 3rd party policies" its by the fact that Atari had no legal control over what was distributed on the VCS. It was liberal because anybody could license or design a game for it. There wasn't yet 3rd party contracts so anything could be made and distributed for the system.


Atari couldn't stop Mystique from releasing those horrible porn games. And Activision and others couldn't stop smaller ambitious companies from ripping-off their ideas. I have every reason to believe that most games back in the early 1980s weren't patented so any design or idea could be copied without permission.


Shovelware? Meh Wii and PS2 have WAY more useless IPs and cash-in bullshit than 2600. And SEGA's licensing policy was WAY different and WAY more moderate than Nintendo's draconian and neo communist 3rd party policies. SEGA's Seal of Quality was actually more about "Quality". SEGA of America practiced what they preached. And I don't meant that in a biased way.

How many Genesis games can you name that are shovelware? I hardly remember very many. Genesis has probably the strongest B+ 3rd party library than any other console in gaming history. We know the extremist bullshit Nintendo pulled in the mid and late 1980s. Until 1989, nobody was allowed to develop for their competitors. Also Nintendo restricted the amount of releases by Quarter. Only 12 or less NES titles were allowed release per quarter from 1986-1989. Nintendo ALSO resented theRental of games. They tried unsuccessfully in 1988 to take Blockbuster to court over rental policies and claimed that renting games ruined the shelf life and marketability of NES games.

Nintendo was also fairly greedy during the Super NES days. Most publishers only got 11% in royalties, developers got even less. Nintendo also was still fairly Conservative regarding its Seal of Quality by the early and mid 90s, but not as extreme.

Sony has never, I repeat NEVER given a shit on the quality of their 3rd party software. They could care less about what gets released on Playstation. As long as its licensed and as long as they get a large profit margin from 1st party license returns. Their fine. Garbage like Fantastic Four,Grudge Warriors,Batman Beyond,Fighting Force,Frogger made profit from their returns. Sony also used to have capital to pay their publishers handsomely in royalties. Over 40%. Just make the damn game and put our name on it. Back then, Anything bearing Sony's name ensured good sales.


Quality control is important in game libraries in overall quality, play-ability and lastibility and was the one thing only SEGA had in their 3rd party policies until the asstard Bernie took over. He then begin to abuse the policy.

[tz101]

^
Just a question: Did you actually ever play any of the 10 games in OP before trashing them?

[MrSega]

^
Just a question: Did you actually ever play any of the 10 games in OP before trashing them?

Every single one of them. First in 1987 and then again in 1992. Except the other Mystique games in which I downloaded on my old Gateway PC ten years ago.

[Armoured Priest]

Games generally weren't/aren't patented (the hardware is patented on various levels) . They were copyrighted though:

A case where a game was found to have infringed
http://www.patentarcade.com/2005/04/...-phillips.html

A counter example:
http://www.patentarcade.com/2005/08/...al-1994-c.html


There were several lawsuits back in the day concerning this.

The similarities of games then isn't all that different then what's happening today with companies like Zynga, and is more indicative of the screwed up US copyright laws. (I believe a game only needs to be shown to be something like 11% different in some fashion to avoid copyright infringement. It varies from game to game )

[MrSega]

Games generally weren't/aren't patented (the hardware is patented on various levels) . They were copyrighted though:

A case where a game was found to have infringed
http://www.patentarcade.com/2005/04/...-phillips.html

A counter example:
http://www.patentarcade.com/2005/08/...al-1994-c.html


There were several lawsuits back in the day concerning this.

The similarities of games then isn't all that different then what's happening today with companies like Zynga, and is more indicative of the screwed up US copyright laws. (I believe a game only needs to be shown to be something like 11% different in some fashion to avoid copyright infringement. It varies from game to game )

SEGA recently filed a patent infringement lawsuit against Level 5 over the Inazuma 11 titles. Having studied how vague and non discrete & how rare a lawsuit from SEGA is, I suspect they're planning on getting co-publishing rights since the alleged patent was filed in 2005.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

I wouldn't say ban him, just ignore him.

I'd say ban him. Give him one less outlet to spew his bullshit on.

[A Black Falcon]

How many Genesis games can you name that are shovelware? I hardly remember very many. Genesis has probably the strongest B+ 3rd party library than any other console in gaming history. We know the extremist bullshit Nintendo pulled in the mid and late 1980s. Until 1989, nobody was allowed to develop for other competitors. Also Nintendo restricted the amount of releases by Quarter. Only 12 or less NES titles were allowed release per quarter from 1986-1989. Nintendo ALSO resented Rental of games. They tried unsuccessfully to take Blockbuster to court over rental policies and claimed that renting games ruined the shelf life and marketability of NES games.

Nintendo was also fairly greedy during the Super NES days. Most publishers only got 11% in royalties, developers got even less. Nintendo also was still fairly Conservative regarding its Seal of Quality by the early and mid 90s, but not as extreme.

What are you talking about? There's a lot of shovelware on the Genesis. If you don't know that, you don't play Genesis games... and that stuff about Nintendo restricting NES releases has nothing to do with the SNES, which was the Genesis's main competition; that practice, of course, did not continue. It probably is true that because of the lower licensing fees Genesis games were probably a little more likely to be lower-budget than SNES games were, but both systems have their fair share of shovelware, for sure.

[StarMist]

What are you talking about? There's a lot of shovelware on the Genesis. If you don't know that, you don't play Genesis games...

What's your definition of shovelware? The MD has plenty of poor games but little of it would align with most people's definition of shovelware apart from the sports genre. Sure it's fair to count the sports shovelware titles but I doubt you could tell me firsthand which are mediocre efforts and which are shovelware; not that I could tell you a whole lot more about them, I'm just saying don't lot them all together. I'd say the most patently shovelware games on MD have an excuse, they're children's titles: Barney, Crystal's Pony Tales, Bearenstein Bears etc. The SFC has a more notable selection of shovelware albeit perhaps the percentage isn't much higher.

It probably is true that because of the lower licensing fees Genesis games were probably a little more likely to be lower-budget than SNES games were, but both systems have their fair share of shovelware, for sure.

The SFC has some straight gutter trash puzzle games, those were the shovelware of the day; nothing was cheaper to make and the MD has no answer to that cheapness. I'm excluding Sega Channel games along with Nintendo Satellites as I know next to nothing about either.

[Armoured Priest]

SEGA recently filed a patent infringement lawsuit against Level 5 over the Inazuma 11 titles. Having studied how vague and non discrete & how rare a lawsuit from SEGA is, I suspect they're planning on getting co-publishing rights since the alleged patent was filed in 2005.

It's not over the game, though. Its specifically because the game is using touch-screen mechanics in its coding. The game itself isn't coping anything specific...otherwise it would be a copyright issue. I mentioned it because your previous post was about shovelware and copycat games. The Sega/Level-5 lawsuit is over a technology issue. Its not the same thing.

I will admit that in my previous post I should have also said that specific elements of coding to do specific things can also be patented along with hardware, so that's my bad. For example: Skype is something that would be copyrighted. VOIP (voice over internet protocol), the basic technology behind what Skype does would be patented.

[MrSega]

It's not over the game, though. Its specifically because the game is using touch-screen mechanics in its coding. The game itself isn't coping anything specific...otherwise it would be a copyright issue. I mentioned it because your previous post was about shovelware and copycat games. The Sega/Level-5 lawsuit is over a technology issue. Its not the same thing.

I will admit that in my previous post I should have also said that specific elements of coding to do specific things can also be patented along with hardware, so that's my bad. For example: Skype is something that would be copyrighted. VOIP (voice over internet protocol), the basic technology behind what Skype does would be patented.

That's the point I'm trying to make. The lawsuit is over the LCD Touch Screen schematics and function on how their used in the Inazuma 11 games in which Level 5 has been using since 2008. Yet SEGA is alleged to have filed a patent using this description in 2005. Though the same patent was issued in 2009 as Level 5 alleged.

SEGA would and can claim co-publishing to the games if Level 5 is found guilty of violating SEGA's patent design. Whether intentional or unwitting. They are asking for the Inazuma 11 games to be postponed from retail and are seeking $11 million which indicates an attempt to have some rights to the IP properties.

[NeoZeedeater]

I would like to hear from someone who was actually older than eight or so when the crash happened. In fact that is the only people I would like to hear from on topics like this, as in the people that actually saw it happen.

Looks like I meet the age requirement by a small margin. There was a thread at digitalpress a few years ago asking people who were gamers at the time of the crash what they thought of it back then. Almost everyone said they didn't even know there was a crash at the time.

I agree with gamevet that it wasn't something that happened with the flip of a switch. The word "crash" makes people think of an instant drop off but that wasn't the case. And it wasn't just teenagers seeing 8-bit gaming computers as a better alternative than consoles. It was becoming like that in the elementary schools too in my experience.

And has anyone besides myself here beaten E.T. on 2600? I went back and played through it a few years ago. It wasn't bad at all. It's just one of those games you really need the instructions for.

[MrSega]

Looks like I meet the age requirement by a small margin. There was a thread at digitalpress a few years ago asking people who were gamers at the time of the crash what they thought of it back then. Almost everyone said they didn't even know there was a crash at the time.

I agree with gamevet that it wasn't something that happened with the flip of a switch. The word "crash" makes people think of an instant drop off but that wasn't the case. And it wasn't just teenagers seeing 8-bit gaming computers as a better alternative than consoles. It was becoming like that in the elementary schools too in my experience.

And has anyone besides myself here beaten E.T. on 2600? I went back and played through it a few years ago. It wasn't bad at all. It's just one of those games you really need the instructions for.

I played E.T. for about 2 hours in '87 before giving up. In 1992, I got about 4 hours into and had already died several times.

It's a well designed game. What else do you except in a game that was designed in 5 weeks? It's just convoluted.

[Barone]

I played E.T. for about 2 hours in '87 before giving up.

Wow, I really supposed you're no older than 10. My bad.

[goldenband]

And has anyone besides myself here beaten E.T. on 2600? I went back and played through it a few years ago. It wasn't bad at all. It's just one of those games you really need the instructions for.

I beat it at least once or twice in the 1980s. I've never understood its bad reputation -- I didn't have any problem with it, but like you I had the instructions, and I quickly figured out the pit mechanics.

I don't think it's even in the bottom 50% of Atari games, which is to say I think it's in the upper 50%, especially when you factor in the garbage released worldwide like Walker, the unplayable Bi! Bi!, Forest, etc. Even just domestically, Sssnake, the Mythicon games, the porn games, and the Swordquest series are all worse.

And frankly, as a kid starved for games with a little depth to them -- something with an objective beyond just getting a high score, and a narrative other than "kill everything" -- E.T. was a welcome change.

[Thenewguy]

Most computers declined around the same time, Coco, Atari 400/800, TI99/4A, and TS1000 all decreased in sales in 1983, and then nosedived in 1984.

The only machines which had growth in the low end(-ish) market were Commodore's (and from what I've run into the VIC-20 probably dropped in sales in 1983 too).

US C64 yearly sales in 1983 were 2 million, afterwards it never got higher than 2.5 million odd in a year

Atari 2600 sold 4 million in 1982.
Colecovision sold nearly 1 million in its first 6 months (summer 1982-early 1983)
Its highly likely that the Intelivision sold >1 million in 82' too (1st year sales were 175,000, by end of 82 total sales were at 2 million)

At its height the NES sold 9 million in one year in the US.

Best case scenario, if all US C64 buyers were only getting it to play videogames, and if the C64 took no sales away from other computers (which are both astronomically doubtful), then the C64 market was still <50% of what the console market had been prior to the crash, and 30% odd of the subsequent NES market.