32X: Yay or nay?

[j_factor]

And what about Sega Rally, Virtua Cop, Solar Eclipse? You think those looked like shit too?

No, but that's just it: the Saturn only started to look good, or decent next to the PS, after running way behind for the rest of the year in America. And only in a handful of top tier titles at that.

Those games all came out in 1995. I don't know the exact release dates of those games, but Playstation launched in September. You're talking about lagging behind for, what, a couple months?

I agree with WipEout and Jumping Flash, but Toshinden is a crap game.

Wasn't the point. It looked and seemed to play amazing those first few months. It was an awesome tech demo. Five months later? Yeah, people start noticing it plays like shit. But that's not the issue. [/quote]

Then what is? I mean, a shitty game that looks nice doesn't really do us any good.

Hot arcade ports (WWF, MK3, Tekken), sports titles (a genre Sega had a stranglehold on with the Genesis they basically conceded out of the gate; the most important sector for software in the American market), a superior launch price point and generaly higher graphical quality (much of the time stunningly so) from game to game, all came together to make the PS the far more attractive choice in 1995. Rightly.

Another first -- I've never heard anyone actually claim Playstation to have a superior lineup of arcade ports.

I don't know who the hell you're hanging out with, but I assume there was some reason why the Saturn was getting its ass kicked from the very start.[/quote]

That reason certainly isn't arcade ports.

As you should know, the American market doesn't give a crap for VF -- the system mover in Japan. And, to top it off, until the end of the year all the Saturn ports directly from Sega looked like day old garbage at best.

I agree, Virtua Fighter and Daytona were crappy, rushed ports. But you're acting like "the end of the year" was an eternity when the official US launches of both consoles were in September. And I believe I specifically said in my original reply "in December '95" so I don't know why you're arguing about the couple months before then.

It's also interesting that you use late arrivals like Sega Rally against the PS's lineup. Second generation versus first generation software, and months too late to the market from Sega's side.

Late arrivals? I was talking about 1995. The whole year. I think I made this clear from the beginning. Yes, the Saturn was quite the lame duck from its Japanese launch to its US "limited prerelease" all the way until its "official launch" when games started rolling in. But after that, I was significantly more impressed by Saturn's overall lineup. May

And sports titles? You're correct if you only count American football,

Believe it or not, football is far and away what matters most in the market. It is the market for all intents and purposes.

but Saturn had the other sports just fine.
NHL All-Star Hockey,

I'm vague, but I'm pretty sure that this was roundly panned. Faceoff on the other hand looked nice and picked up positive reviews.

Worldwide Soccer (what did psx have for soccer?),

Who cares? This is America -- five people give a crap about soccer here.

It's hilarious that you don't think it a big deal to be without the BIG American sport on Saturn, but are critical of the lack of soccer on the PS. How much more biased can you be? [/quote]

You're totally misrepresenting what I said. I never made any claim regarding the market importance of individual sports. I CONCEDED a point to you, and you're mocking me for it -- isn't that a little overly confrontational, even for you?

To say that the Saturn had a better selection of 'wow' titles requires bigger Sega blinders than I've ever had.

or a taste for quality games.

No, anybody who'd see Bug! as a graphical tour de force -- or its sequel, Bug Too! as a graphically superior work to Crash Bandicoot -- is pretty deep in Sega denial on this system war. [/quote]

I never referred to Bug! as a graphical tour de force. I said it was "pretty wow at the time" and the wow part was that it was a new type of game. A new way of presenting a game and a new way of playing a game.

I'm not wow'ed by mediocre games that look nice, but maybe that's just me.

What do you think a next gen system mainly is supposed to do? Look damn nice.[/quote]

I highly disagree. I think a next-gen system is supposed to provide new experiences. That's why I didn't care about Dreamcast at first, and that's why I don't like Xbox 360 so far. ....Saturn did it for me. Playstation did too, but for the first two years overall it didn't have as many worthwhile games.

I still play Virtua Fighter 2, Panzer Dragoon, Solar Eclipse, and Astal from time to time... who plays Tekken 1 or Toshinden anymore?

A more balanced question would be who plays Daytona or Virtua Fighter as opposed to the PS games you mentioned (two of the lamest, in retrospect). And, hey, who was even playing them then? [/quote]

Why are you so fixated on Daytona and VF1? I've stated time and again that I basically agree with you about those two games; you're just beating a dead horse. Saturn had other games in 1995. You're acting like the games I mentioned don't exist.

I play many more Snes and Genny games today than I do anything from Saturn or PS's first year. That doesn't change the fact that I had a hell of a great time with the Playstation back then.

Well I had a hell of a great time with Saturn back then. A friend of mine got a Playstation, and while I adored WipEout and a couple others, it didn't have the quantity of quality games that I wanted. Neither did Saturn in its VERY beginning, but it did soon after, while Playstation didn't at that time.

I have almost 50 games for Playstation, not a single one from its first year; that is not coincidental.

Maybe it has something to do with showing up late for the party?

If you didn't see any quality in games like Jumping Flash!, Warhawk, Twisted Metal, WipEout, Ridge Racer and the like there isn't much I can do to change your mind at this late date. Did games generally get better? Yes, but that's always the case with great systems. [/quote]

Man, how many times do I have to say WipEout and Jumping Flash were great games before you stop acting as though I think the opposite?

And we were talking about the launch, which means your retrospective about what's decent now and what isn't misses the entire point.

We weren't talking about the launch. This whole argument started when I said "I was there too, and I bought a Saturn in December of '95 precisely because it was wowing me far more than Playstation." December of '95. The post I was responding to didn't say "at launch" either. The discussion was of the early part of the consoles' lifespans, not strictly the launch.

I bought a Saturn in December '95 because it had a bunch of good games by then... Playstation had around 3.

Well, you were one of the few to think this for the year. And for having so many impressive games, it's interesting that you have basically mentioned maybe five titles altogether -- what else did the Saturn have?[/quote]

Well, I did say good games, not impressive games. Impressive is hard to quantify.

So far I've mentioned:
Virtua Fighter 2
Sega Rally
Solar Eclipse
Bug!
Panzer Dragoon
Astal
Worldwide Soccer
World Series Baseball
NHL All-Star Hockey
Virtua Cop

I might also add:
Galactic Attack
Shinobi Legions
Virtual Open Tennis
Dark Legend
Mystaria
Shell Shock

[ary incorparated]

J factor is right all the way,I tought satrurn was the worser ones of the to,But i was hearing about it and i looked at the pics on the back of the games,they where amazing.then when i couldnt buy a psx i tought hey maybe that saturn would be cheap by now.I went to the Discovery gameshop in the city,damn still it was 500 f damn i couldnt effort that,i went to free record shop and saw virtua fighter 2(i already played that one omn pc)i looked even impressive and better then the pc version.i was very currious about sega consoles,i finnaly bought it and i tought it looked allot worser then psx,hey it didnt at al i was enjoying sega rally and i showed of the saturn books that came with some games everbody in school was wandering,what is that console and it deliverd discusions,why does it look like psx and why does it lookes so great,a friend of my also had all sega and he sead that the saturn was better then psx i couldnt belive him,he showed how awesome that console was when i was at his home,he showe Radiant silvergun,panzer dragoon saga i was confident that the saturn is a way good console and graphically better then psx.I bought radiant silvergun virtua cop 2 virtua fighter 2 and panzer dragoon saga,i was blewn away by its lrge and uge sprites in games and the really big levels in Panzer dragoon 2,Come on 16bitter the saturn had damn good graphics for its time,very colourfull and almost arcade,VF 2 was way better then tekken 1 and 2 graphically.panzer dragoon 2 has mirroring in the water and very uge levels,the whole atmosphere of the game was there,Oooh yeah ever played PD saga NO fmv that final fanasy uses almost everything with ingame graphics almost real water you could even see a diffrent mirror ,depending on how high you fly above the water and you can hear the wind very clear when your in the air and the water when your lowwer.Ooh yeah 16bitter i remeber the first psx games all had uge polygons games like tekken ridge racer etc they showd many uge pixxels,Compare them to VF 2 Nights in to dreams and sega rally,clockworld knight,PD2 ,they looked worser I was bothered with the pixxels flickering in some psx game,VF2 doesnt bother me it has nice and clean graphics,I didnt notice any bothering pixels in virtua co 2 and Nights was amazing.Most of the time the saturn atleast had much different games and they where very beutiful,Nights etc.BTW youre comparing some games with crash bendicoot(the dull looking fox)crash is a clear rip of sonic and mario.the games where fun but thats it later they became a milk product and looked more obvious that it was a rip.most saturn games that where released for saturn in 98 really amazed me Radiant silvergun PD saga they shipped al the blocks and polygons,i couldnt see em" that much haha PD saga doesnt have much bugs our glitches at all,you can walk aggianst a wall without the wall dissappearing,i remeber many psx had that till 2000.When psx was going on till 2004 i tought when do they stop wtih that thing already.Dreamcast and ps2,xbox etc already where there.Saturn was very block and polygonal prove and some games even felt like Dreamcast titles to me,strange but treu.

[16bitter]

And what about Sega Rally, Virtua Cop, Solar Eclipse? You think those looked like shit too?

No, but that's just it: the Saturn only started to look good, or decent next to the PS, after running way behind for the rest of the year in America. And only in a handful of top tier titles at that.

Those games all came out in 1995. I don't know the exact release dates of those games, but Playstation launched in September. You're talking about lagging behind for, what, a couple months?

I guess that's a problem when there are only a couple months left in that same year, and Sega wasted all that time save the last month. Fall has always been the hot video game season -- not just Christmas. Sega missed out, for all intents and purposes, on decent market penetration for all but a few weeks in the year -- even though they launched in May.

What a disaster.

I agree with WipEout and Jumping Flash, but Toshinden is a crap game.

Wasn't the point. It looked and seemed to play amazing those first few months. It was an awesome tech demo. Five months later? Yeah, people start noticing it plays like shit. But that's not the issue.

Then what is? I mean, a shitty game that looks nice doesn't really do us any good.

The point is why the Playstation won. It looked great and it felt like it was creating far more new gameplay experiences. And Toshinden was in no way any worse gameplay-wise than the majority of shit Saturn had in its lineup -- that, to top it off, generally looked as bad as it played.

And if you think the majority of people are going to buy a $400-300 system that has "great gameplay" (highly debatable as compared to the PS) with horse shit graphics...well, I don't know what to say. Next-gen systems are about graphical ability -- otherwise nobody would have bought a Genesis out of the gate.

Hot arcade ports (WWF, MK3, Tekken), sports titles (a genre Sega had a stranglehold on with the Genesis they basically conceded out of the gate; the most important sector for software in the American market), a superior launch price point and generaly higher graphical quality (much of the time stunningly so) from game to game, all came together to make the PS the far more attractive choice in 1995. Rightly.

Another first -- I've never heard anyone actually claim Playstation to have a superior lineup of arcade ports.

I don't know who the hell you're hanging out with, but I assume there was some reason why the Saturn was getting its ass kicked from the very start.

That reason certainly isn't arcade ports.

Really? Since when have Americans cared about the Virtua Fighter series? Is Sega Rally a hot name? Now, try Mortal Kombat 3 -- biggest arcade game of the year. Only on Playstation, so far as the next gen consoles. A perfect rendition of Tekken -- a series that has always been more popular in the States than VF. Same with RR, which only had SS Daytona for comparison point up until the final weeks of the year.

Then there's Wrestlemania, which was a decent arcade hit that summer -- on Playstation by October. Where was the Saturn version? Being prepared for summer 96 release. WOO.

As you should know, the American market doesn't give a crap for VF -- the system mover in Japan. And, to top it off, until the end of the year all the Saturn ports directly from Sega looked like day old garbage at best.

I agree, Virtua Fighter and Daytona were crappy, rushed ports.

No more rushed than Ridge Racer -- which was a stellar port. The Saturn's horrible innards did it no favors -- as the people at AM2 were all too ready to point out themselves.

But you're acting like "the end of the year" was an eternity when the official US launches of both consoles were in September.

Do you understand the market? I really don't think so with quotes like the above. Sega wastes all but a few weeks of the year with terrible looking software and you act as if this is no big deal. That's pretty funny.

And I believe I specifically said in my original reply "in December '95" so I don't know why you're arguing about the couple months before then.

Um, because the point the whole time -- from before you disagreed with me -- was that of the botched first year of the Saturn, that's why.

Sega wasted the entire year, and they were out in this market for the majority of that same year. It seems, really, that you're the one lacking perspective -- any year for the video game market is made up of far more than just Christmas, especially as this was the beginning of an older market shift.

I don't particularly care if you got Christmas money and were wowed by VF2, the fact is that the Saturn had little to recommend it against the PS's lineup. Excise VF2, SR and VC -- what have you got left that can move a system? And therein is why Sega lost when combining that formula with the reality of release dates.

It's also interesting that you use late arrivals like Sega Rally against the PS's lineup. Second generation versus first generation software, and months too late to the market from Sega's side.

Late arrivals? I was talking about 1995. The whole year.

Do you not realize that the Saturn release schedule was a massive failure for 1995? Do you not understand that software released the last few weeks of a year would technically -- inargaubly -- be considered to be late releases for that year's schedule?

Speaking of the whole year, Sega flushed it right down the toilet.

You make my point for me, really, by using December software releases chiefly to defend the Saturn's software lineup for that entire year -- which started in MAY.

I think I made this clear from the beginning. Yes, the Saturn was quite the lame duck from its Japanese launch to its US "limited prerelease" all the way until its "official launch" when games started rolling in. But after that, I was significantly more impressed by Saturn's overall lineup. May

Up until December, what did the Saturn have? And the fact that you bought the system in December speaks to one of two things -- either you didn't have the money until the Saturn had a couple of 'wow' titles (which would be serendipitous for Sega if this was so for many others, but there's the sad reality of a year wasted instead), or the system didn't grab you until then. Either one only underlines my point on the matter.

You're totally misrepresenting what I said.

How's that? You defended the Saturn as a good sports machine. I wasn't refuting you in a vacuum.

I never made any claim regarding the market importance of individual sports.

The sports market is DEFINED by who has the hot football game in this country. Don't try and play some false semantic game -- football is the market. The genre is owned by football. Having a good baseball game was not going to cut it against what was considered a fine next-gen football game in Gameday.

I CONCEDED a point to you,

Arguing that the Saturn was a fine sports machine at that time is no concession -- further, trying to pretend that football isn't aout 65%-75% of the war on that front to begin with is lacking in either honesty or knowledge of what American sports gamers are into.

How pathetically stupid was it to not have a football game ready? America's the biggest market in the world and sports are, last time I checked, the biggest genre, OWNED by football, and they mix up which version of that sport this market is into. So Sega. They got soccer but no football. Ridiculous.

and you're mocking me for it -- isn't that a little overly confrontational, even for you? (16-bitter: oh the irony in that statement alone, not even considering the source's general lack of decorum)

I never mocked you to any great degree on the issue. Calm down. I will say that I stand by me incredulous reaction to your bluster on the matter -- to act as if it wasn't that big a deal that the Saturn was missing football, and to then turn around acting like it was mark against the PS that it lacked soccer was ridiculously biased. And hilarious.

As far as confrontational and easily riled personalities, I think you need to look in the mirror -- your opening salvo was to out and out call me ignorant on the Saturn versus Playstation software lineup. And you then expect things to be genial afterwards? Maybe you should address people with respect to begin with. It does take a massive ego to expect more respect than is given.

If you can't see the irony of your complaining about aggressive statements, well, that's pretty damned funny as well.

As it stands, it's obvious you have no argument on the sports issue that will stand up, so you introduce this thread of hypocritival mock outrage. As I said, the Saturn had jack that mattered in the genre. Another huge mistake.

To say that the Saturn had a better selection of 'wow' titles requires bigger Sega blinders than I've ever had.

or a taste for quality games.

No, anybody who'd see Bug! as a graphical tour de force -- or its sequel, Bug Too! as a graphically superior work to Crash Bandicoot -- is pretty deep in Sega denial on this system war.

I never referred to Bug! as a graphical tour de force. I said it was "pretty wow at the time" and the wow part was that it was a new type of game.

If you can see wow in Bug! -- I was underwhelmed by it when the Saturn had the market to itself -- then it makes your bias against the far more impressive Playstation releases all the more apparent.

And we both know that you claimed Bug! Too to be a better looking game than Crash on another thread months back. Which is pretty high on the ridiculous bias scale.

A new way of presenting a game and a new way of playing a game.

You find use for Bug! as a "wow title that did something new" but can't acknowledge far and away superior and striking Playstation software like Twisted Metal or Warhawk (to name but two, which seems fair enough against one)? Wow is right.

I'm not wow'ed by mediocre games that look nice, but maybe that's just me.

What do you think a next gen system mainly is supposed to do? Look damn nice.

I highly disagree.

If a system pumps out horrible looking games and has a high price point, how many people do you think will want it?

I think a next-gen system is supposed to provide new experiences. That's why I didn't care about Dreamcast at first,

You think the Saturn had a better debut than the Dreamcast. That about sums everything up, I think.

and that's why I don't like Xbox 360 so far. ....Saturn did it for me.

What new gameplay was on Saturn? There's nothing new or revolutionary about VF2, Virtua Cop or Sega Rally -- all pretty typical for their genres (VF, for example was an awesome game stuck on 2D rails with polygons, which was certainly not insular to itself at the time as a gameplay idea). Other than that, what? Your bias is showing again.

I still play Virtua Fighter 2, Panzer Dragoon, Solar Eclipse, and Astal from time to time... who plays Tekken 1 or Toshinden anymore?

A more balanced question would be who plays Daytona or Virtua Fighter as opposed to the PS games you mentioned (two of the lamest, in retrospect). And, hey, who was even playing them then?

Why are you so fixated on Daytona and VF1?

Because those were the big first party titles for the system for the majority of 1995 in America. They're what gave people the main impression of the system's power for the year by virtue of being there the great majority of it. Simple.

Also, SR and VF2 were second generation games competing against first generation Playstation software in the likes of RR and Toshinden -- both of which were still as technologically impressive if not moreso even considering that.

I've stated time and again that I basically agree with you about those two games; you're just beating a dead horse.

Which would be the Saturn for the year of 1995. Which you won't acknowledge, even though the main software you have to support it came out at the 11th hour -- after the Saturn had already gained a lousy rep and lost out on many console sales to the PS.

Saturn had other games in 1995.

Most of which were equally embarrassing.

You're acting like the games I mentioned don't exist.

They didn't exist for the American market until about a month was left in the year. That's the point.

Also, I'm still waiting for those games with fresh gameplay to be mentioned -- VF2, SR and Cop don't cut it in the least, it must be repeated.

Man, how many times do I have to say WipEout and Jumping Flash were great games before you stop acting as though I think the opposite?

Very simply, if that's the case then why did you previously say this:

_factor wrote:
I have almost 50 games for Playstation, not a single one from its first year; that is not coincidental.

Obviously you were saying that the PS's software lineup was worthless out of the gate with the above. Whether you earlier said that WipEout and JF! were good is of little consequence when you sweepingly contradict the same point immediately afterwards. Don't blame me for your own incoherence -- I'm only responding to it.

And we were talking about the launch, which means your retrospective about what's decent now and what isn't misses the entire point.

We weren't talking about the launch. This whole argument started when I said "I was there too, and I bought a Saturn in December of '95 precisely because it was wowing me far more than Playstation." December of '95.
The post I was responding to didn't say "at launch" either. The discussion was of the early part of the consoles' lifespans, not strictly the launch.

I meant the launch year. Bad wording on my part. Point was and is that judging these games now is unfair, which is why I consider reaction to the software on a 1995 basis -- meaning, yes, Toshinden was damn impressive. And, no matter its later apparent gameplay flaws, it felt fresher and more amazing than anything the Saturn had to offer.

Does that mean it's a good game with retrospect? No, but that was never the argument.

I bought a Saturn in December '95 because it had a bunch of good games by then... Playstation had around 3.

Well, you were one of the few to think this for the year. And for having so many impressive games, it's interesting that you have basically mentioned maybe five titles altogether -- what else did the Saturn have?

Well, I did say good games, not impressive games. Impressive is hard to quantify.

So I take it you don't know when you're impressed? Laughable.

It's no more difficult to quantify than "good" is, nor any easier for that matter -- I somehow doubt that you make a habit of buying games you consider unimpressive any more than you do games you consider bad.

Nice try (also ridiculous), but with both you're in the realm of subjectivity -- and, of course, they can be interchangable. Though the issue of whether a game is doing something new is an issue that can be factually traced -- and the facts are against Saturn in that time period, with the PS winning out.

And again, contradictions on your part -- one minute you talk about how the Saturn had the "new gameplay" you were looking for, the next you strictly speak of "good" software (as shown with the horrendous, innovation-lacking, list of retreads you trotted out below). If you only wanted good software, then the Saturn and PS likely would have trailed behind the SNES and Genesis. If you wanted innovation you would have gone with the 3D champ of the time, the Playstation.

Bottom line is that if a system does not impress, then how will it sell? Semantically you made a really lousy counterpoint. The PS obviously and rightly impressed more than the Saturn on the basis of gameplay ideas and looks.

So far I've mentioned:
Virtua Fighter 2
Sega Rally
Solar Eclipse
Bug![
Panzer Dragoon
Astal
Worldwide Soccer
World Series Baseball
NHL All-Star Hockey
Virtua Cop

I might also add:
Galactic Attack
Shinobi Legions
Virtual Open Tennis (16-bitter: I don't even remember this game)
Dark Legend (16-bitter: so MK3, the number 1 arcade game of 1995, was an awful game nobody could care about according to you, yet you tout this lawn cigar? Good grief!)
Mystaria (ugh)
Shell Shock

LOL @ that list. Crap, especially the stuff in bold. No way would the majority of that help convince the average customer to shell out the cash Sega was asking for.

And where's the unique new gameplay in all of that? How's Astal a bold new idea? Shinobi? No. Um, Galactic Attack? No again. Lessee, NHL All-Star Hockey? No. VF2/SR/PD? Nope. I'm not seein' it.

Nothing on there was as innovative as Jumping Flash!, Twisted Metal, Toshinden (again, crap gameplay in *retrospect* but it did feel and look new at that time) and the like. I count a bunch of stale gameplay ideas in a mediocre new package as far as most of that. The very strong stands as: VF2, VC, SR and PD. Not one was knock your socks off unique, even as far as challenging genre convention (I did appreciate the rotating freedom of PD, however, which probably stands out as the biggest gameplay innovation of the games mentioned in relation to their genre). We have a rail shooter, a light gun game, a 2D-enforced fighter masking itself as 3D with polys and a racing game.

Seriously, ROFLMAO at that list. Playstation's lineup kicks the crap out of it on quality, hotness and freshness so far as gameplay experimentation.

Now, I've had about enough of this. It surely doesn't help that you do such a poor job with the quote feature -- it's bitch to clean up the mess you leave behind. I can't imagine how you're not doing it on purpose.

Go ahead and post away on the amazing gameplay ideas represented in All-Star Hockey, Astal, Mystaria and the like. Truth is that the only thing that even makes that list passable are the titles released right at the end, which has always been my point in regards to the Saturn's fall (i.e. it fully deserved it) -- and those were not "new" on the gameplay front themselves.

I couldn't play anything that could match or really approximate Twisted Metal on another system, yet games similar to and far better than the design of Astal could be had on 16-bit. I'd never seen a game like JF! before, but even as impressive as Panzer was it really was not much more than a prettier, better designed Star Fox -- nothing new. Whether it was the ugliest port known to man, Daytona, or Sega Rally in merely the last few weeks of a horrendous year for Sega, I could still find as good or possibly better on PS with Ridge Racer. I could go on. It's obvious that, by your new standard of fresh gameplay, the PS was way out in front of the Saturn.

If you want to delude yourself into thinking the Saturn was a superior piece of hardware that demonstrated these skills constantly to moronic public scorn, be my guest. Just know that you shouldn't type it out for my benefit -- as I won't be reading it. I've been given quite enough entertainment with that list of software you provided -- anybody who'd include All-Star Hockey has no business constantly berating Toshinden on the quality scale; then and now I'd much rather play the latter. Nor do you have any business rambling on about new gameplay ideas being your main focus when considering that stale, putrid list.

When discussing Saturn in this thread I was not and still am not interested in a fanboy pissing contest -- I had no real horse in 1995 that I vigorously fought for and I was 12 years old at the time -- but rather in talking truthfully about just how badly Sega screwed up. As with other threads, you're far too eager to defend and promote the Saturn as a stronger system than it was, in multiple ways. I'm frankly bored by the ludicrous statements from your end; that list, while hilarious, was probably the final straw.

[ary incorparated]

here i got one for you 16bitter,Compare bloody roar that came out in 98 with guardian heroes or oke a game from 98,uurrm ,Panzer dragoon saga,no fmv like in final fantasy,maybe a litle,at least the ingame graphics look awsome.i only like tekken GTA and driver for psx then the fun stopped for me,What youre saying is the same old loudmouthed stuff whe always here from sony fan boys.Saturn uses real technologie ehem who got the finest and sharpest 2d fighters of the two,Saturn.Who shows that you can make games that are graphically amazing and on par with games from 98(nights)Oke one thing sony had and that was a fanbase,Still couldnt figure out why the stupid rip off fox bandicoat was so popular for,he wasnt origenal at all,who infented 32 bit harware,sega.If you call uss fanboys look at yourself only bitching the saturn,FIRST play it before Judging it.sure i like psx but i liked saturn better,because its mysterial console,the games are hard to gett so Fun to hunt em.Btw saturn got rare titels in europe and japan,cant remeber any rare Europeen psx gamesBTW they will never be.16bitter youre trying to kill a fanbase of its own toppic,if youre so into sony why dont you jopin a sony site to Drag up over sony.If you want to kick the saturn in the ground it isnt fun it distrackts other members,who are into this toppic,why couldnt you just say have it youre way,everybody has a diffrent taste to end this to uge discussion.dont start fanboy pissing on the wrong toppic then Since you made it.

[ary incorparated]

And what about Sega Rally, Virtua Cop, Solar Eclipse? You think those looked like shit too?

No, but that's just it: the Saturn only started to look good, or decent next to the PS, after running way behind for the rest of the year in America. And only in a handful of top tier titles at that.

Those games all came out in 1995. I don't know the exact release dates of those games, but Playstation launched in September. You're talking about lagging behind for, what, a couple months?

I agree with WipEout and Jumping Flash, but Toshinden is a crap game.

Wasn't the point. It looked and seemed to play amazing those first few months. It was an awesome tech demo. Five months later? Yeah, people start noticing it plays like shit. But that's not the issue.

Then what is? I mean, a shitty game that looks nice doesn't really do us any good.

Hot arcade ports (WWF, MK3, Tekken), sports titles (a genre Sega had a stranglehold on with the Genesis they basically conceded out of the gate; the most important sector for software in the American market), a superior launch price point and generaly higher graphical quality (much of the time stunningly so) from game to game, all came together to make the PS the far more attractive choice in 1995. Rightly.

Another first -- I've never heard anyone actually claim Playstation to have a superior lineup of arcade ports.

I don't know who the hell you're hanging out with, but I assume there was some reason why the Saturn was getting its ass kicked from the very start.[/quote]

That reason certainly isn't arcade ports.

As you should know, the American market doesn't give a crap for VF -- the system mover in Japan. And, to top it off, until the end of the year all the Saturn ports directly from Sega looked like day old garbage at best.

I agree, Virtua Fighter and Daytona were crappy, rushed ports. But you're acting like "the end of the year" was an eternity when the official US launches of both consoles were in September. And I believe I specifically said in my original reply "in December '95" so I don't know why you're arguing about the couple months before then.

It's also interesting that you use late arrivals like Sega Rally against the PS's lineup. Second generation versus first generation software, and months too late to the market from Sega's side.

Late arrivals? I was talking about 1995. The whole year. I think I made this clear from the beginning. Yes, the Saturn was quite the lame duck from its Japanese launch to its US "limited prerelease" all the way until its "official launch" when games started rolling in. But after that, I was significantly more impressed by Saturn's overall lineup. May

And sports titles? You're correct if you only count American football,

Believe it or not, football is far and away what matters most in the market. It is the market for all intents and purposes.

but Saturn had the other sports just fine.
NHL All-Star Hockey,

I'm vague, but I'm pretty sure that this was roundly panned. Faceoff on the other hand looked nice and picked up positive reviews.

Worldwide Soccer (what did psx have for soccer?),

Who cares? This is America -- five people give a crap about soccer here.

I care,and sega had it,dont act like their arent the people into that.

It's hilarious that you don't think it a big deal to be without the BIG American sport on Saturn, but are critical of the lack of soccer on the PS. How much more biased can you be? [/quote]

ohh yeah psx had soccer,way to much of the same and lame stuff in the later years,Fifa 200 fifa 2001 fifa 2002 fifa 2003 fifa 2003,that thing was hated in the local gameshop in the city,Damn al those new fifa games looking like games made in 95.

You're totally misrepresenting what I said. I never made any claim regarding the market importance of individual sports. I CONCEDED a point to you, and you're mocking me for it -- isn't that a little overly confrontational, even for you?

To say that the Saturn had a better selection of 'wow' titles requires bigger Sega blinders than I've ever had.

or a taste for quality games.

Then j factor has a damn good taste preferance to games,hes right,Nights 95 Panzer dragoon saga Radiant silvergun,those games feeling surpassed 32 bit.damn not much polygons,Bloody roar still hurts the eye,the game came out in 98 shame.tekken 1,2 dont better virtua fighter 2 in graphics 3 extra pionts for saturn

No, anybody who'd see Bug! as a graphical tour de force -- or its sequel, Bug Too! as a graphically superior work to Crash Bandicoot -- is pretty deep in Sega denial on this system war. [/quote]

I never referred to Bug! as a graphical tour de force. I said it was "pretty wow at the time" and the wow part was that it was a new type of game. A new way of presenting a game and a new way of playing a game.

I'm not wow'ed by mediocre games that look nice, but maybe that's just me.

No crash rippy coat wowed by beeing origanal,far way not.Bug hd not much bloks or pixxels,no big polygons.

What do you think a next gen system mainly is supposed to do? Look damn nice.[/quote]

I highly disagree. I think a next-gen system is supposed to provide new experiences. That's why I didn't care about Dreamcast at first, and that's why I don't like Xbox 360 so far. ....Saturn did it for me. Playstation did too, but for the first two years overall it didn't have as many worthwhile games.

I still play Virtua Fighter 2, Panzer Dragoon, Solar Eclipse, and Astal from time to time... who plays Tekken 1 or Toshinden anymore?

A more balanced question would be who plays Daytona or Virtua Fighter as opposed to the PS games you mentioned (two of the lamest, in retrospect). And, hey, who was even playing them then? [/quote]

Why are you so fixated on Daytona and VF1? I've stated time and again that I basically agree with you about those two games; you're just beating a dead horse. Saturn had other games in 1995. You're acting like the games I mentioned don't exist.

Oooh yeah,which version of Doa looked better and even was released earlier,Saturn big and brighter characters.

I play many more Snes and Genny games today than I do anything from Saturn or PS's first year. That doesn't change the fact that I had a hell of a great time with the Playstation back then.

Well I had a hell of a great time with Saturn back then. A friend of mine got a Playstation, and while I adored WipEout and a couple others, it didn't have the quantity of quality games that I wanted. Neither did Saturn in its VERY beginning, but it did soon after, while Playstation didn't at that time.

I have almost 50 games for Playstation, not a single one from its first year; that is not coincidental.

Maybe it has something to do with showing up late for the party?

If you didn't see any quality in games like Jumping Flash!, Warhawk, Twisted Metal, WipEout, Ridge Racer and the like there isn't much I can do to change your mind at this late date. Did games generally get better? Yes, but that's always the case with great systems. [/quote]

Man, how many times do I have to say WipEout and Jumping Flash were great games before you stop acting as though I think the opposite?

And we were talking about the launch, which means your retrospective about what's decent now and what isn't misses the entire point.

We weren't talking about the launch. This whole argument started when I said "I was there too, and I bought a Saturn in December of '95 precisely because it was wowing me far more than Playstation." December of '95. The post I was responding to didn't say "at launch" either. The discussion was of the early part of the consoles' lifespans, not strictly the launch.

I bought a Saturn in December '95 because it had a bunch of good games by then... Playstation had around 3.

Well, you were one of the few to think this for the year. And for having so many impressive games, it's interesting that you have basically mentioned maybe five titles altogether -- what else did the Saturn have?[/quote]

Well, I did say good games, not impressive games. Impressive is hard to quantify.

So far I've mentioned:
Virtua Fighter 2
Sega Rally
Solar Eclipse
Bug!
Panzer Dragoon
Astal
Worldwide Soccer
World Series Baseball
NHL All-Star Hockey
Virtua Cop

I might also add:
Galactic Attack
Shinobi Legions
Virtual Open Tennis
Dark Legend
Mystaria
Shell Shock[/quote]

and lot titles to add,ooh yeah crash vs sonic r sonic R does win in bright graphics.

[ary incorparated]

oke I liked the saturn better because it pushed the graphics more(in my uppinion) Radiant silvergun,Panzer dragoon 2 Panzer dragoon saga ,Sonic r,I also saw pictures from shenmue for saturn aldo it wasnt released still looked impressive al the wey,maybe strange but some games on saturn i didnt notice any wrong textures,Polygons or glitches,they where playing fine and i wasnt looking at Squares that you can see,i didnt recognize them while i was playing pd saga,The game doesn bother me with that at al,Psx did sometimes,When i saw street fighter ex and bloody roar that came out late in 97,98 they looked very terrible for such late releases.I also dont like Capcom vs snk on the psx,that game wasnt ment to be made on that console.

[Zakkman]

I love the 32x.

[Chilly Willy]

You resurrected a thread over seven years old just to say that?!?!?

[Drakon]

You resurrected a thread over seven years old just to say that?!?!?

WTF yes, Ban no.

[Chilly Willy]

It's worthy of a temp ban at least. Notice how he only has three posts, and one is this one - necromancy on a SEVEN YEAR-OLD THREAD!!

[Theretrogamer12345]

It's worthy of a temp ban at least. Notice how he only has three posts, and one is this one - necromancy on a SEVEN YEAR-OLD THREAD!!

I don't know that's some pretty useful information he gave there. *Next conversation* Me: Hey guys did you hear, Zakkman loves the 32x! Guys: Wow! You made my day with that interesting fact!

Sorry for the sarcasm, I couldn't resist.

[kool kitty89]

And let's look at his other 2 posts:

I grew up calling it Genesis so Genesis gets my vote.

I have them all on my EverDrive-MD

So . . . yeah.

[sheath]

Oh mah gah, I love the 32X too! What a coincidence!

[Iron Lizard]

He can't post a new thread yet to say it. Geesh calm down before you chase him away.

[Da_Shocker]

You resurrected a thread over seven years old just to say that?!?!?

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!