So I gave Mario 64 another try over the weekend...

[Kamahl]

Early 3D platformers are rubbish by today's standards

You definitely did not play Crash Bandicoot. Although to be fair, Crash isn't really "3D", it's more of a 2D platformer that keeps changing the camera around. It's also what I wanted a 3D sonic game on the Saturn to be like, and what modern Sonic (like in sonic generations) plays like.

[Gogogadget]

I don't think much to Mario 64, but I can never get on well with it and the camera is a bit jittery, but it's an N64 game in 1996.

Sonic Adventure is a next-gen game in 1998, when good 3D platformers popped up left right and centre, and still had awkward as shit camera issues, a ton of glitches and generally isn't even a very fun game to play.

EDIT: All 3 Crash Bandicoot games are also imo and probably 3 of the best PS1 games.

[DarkDragon]

I'd rather play Spyro than Mario 64. I think Spyro came 2 years later.

[Soulis]

Mario 64 was amazing in its time. Every other 3D platform since has copied various elements from it and many things we take for granted were new in this game. And i never had problems with its camera btw, at least not major ones. But even if you had problems with this particular thing you can't deny its impact.

Sonic Adventure on the other hand was mediocre even in its time. Had even worse camera, it was more glitchy, the controls are floaty and some design choices are questionable. Like the voice acting, the many unnecessary, badly designed "friends", the awful cutscenes, etc. And some of these things still plague all Sonic games since. I guess most people were too busy admiring the amazing Dreamcast visuals to notice all the faults.

[Barone]

Mario 64 was amazing in its time. Every other 3D platform since has copied various elements from it and many things we take for granted were new in this game. And i never had problems with its camera btw, at least not major ones. But even if you had problems with this particular thing you can't deny its impact.

Feels like Mario 64 defined 3D platform just like Goldeneye did with FPS games.
"Awesome". I suppose Cruis'n USA is THE landmark for racing games as well. Probably the N64 just invented gaming or something... "Epic!!!"

Pretty much. The Nintendo crowd was always in their own walled-off universe.

And it shows...

[Soulis]

Feels like Mario 64 defined 3D platform

It didn't?

Also your Cruisi'n USA analogy is funny but way off.

[Pulstar]

You definitely did not play Crash Bandicoot. Although to be fair, Crash isn't really "3D", it's more of a 2D platformer that keeps changing the camera around. It's also what I wanted a 3D sonic game on the Saturn to be like, and what modern Sonic (like in sonic generations) plays like.

I had Crash on the DS; a pretty nifty platformer but as you wrote it's not exactly 3D. It'll be interesting to see where they take Sonic next as well; there's no going back to the Adventure—Unleashed days.

[sheath]

Mario 64 is an infection, it was so popular for being Mario that almost every 3D platformer since has *needed* to play just like it. Cruisin' USA is a horrible crappy bad playing Outrun clone.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Mario 64 was amazing in its time. Every other 3D platform since has copied various elements from it and many things we take for granted were new in this game. And i never had problems with its camera btw, at least not major ones. But even if you had problems with this particular thing you can't deny its impact.

Sonic Adventure on the other hand was mediocre even in its time. Had even worse camera, it was more glitchy, the controls are floaty and some design choices are questionable. Like the voice acting, the many unnecessary, badly designed "friends", the awful cutscenes, etc. And some of these things still plague all Sonic games since. I guess most people were too busy admiring the amazing Dreamcast visuals to notice all the faults.

How is Sonic Adventure's camera worse than Mario 64's? Sonic Adventure's camera stays behind Sonic and keeps up with him as he blazes through stages. And if you need to you can rotate it a full 360 degrees to get a better view. In Mario 64 the camera pretty much does what it wants regardless of what Mario is doing or what the player wants to see. And all you can do as a player to try and remedy it is try 4 other fixed angles. That's not better, that's worse.

While Adventure does have it's bugs, so does Mario 64. Both games can definitely be completed without ever seeing one though. The only time I ever saw bugs in Adventure were in the Gamecube port, and once on the Dreamcast port when I was dicking around. I do admit the later ports of Sonic Adventure do have floaty controls, but the original Dreamcast version controls extremely well. I was really shocked when I replayed it on Dreamcast a few years ago and realized how much more accurately I could control Sonic with the Dreamcast Analog stick. The voice acting never bothered me. There's only 2 new "friends" in the game, and 1 dies in that game and the other hasn't been seen since Sonic Heroes. Again it never really bothered me. In fact I enjoyed playing as the other characters.

I find it really funny how people praise the Mario games but diss all the modern Sonic games for things both of them do now. People complain about the badly designed friends in Sonic Adventure but no one complained when Mario 64 on the DS added the characters Yoshi, Wario, and Luigi and made you play as them. People complain about the voice acting in Sonic Adventure but no one complained when Mario was given a voice in Mario 64. Yes the game isn't fully voiced, but I bet you any money had the game been on a CD it would have been fully voiced. Basically it boils down to that Nintendo can get an almost free pass on anything, but Sega get's crap for trying anything different.

And while I don't deny the impact Mario 64 did have, I also have to say it's impact isn't as big as people like to claim. Let's really look at 3D platformers that were around when Mario 64 came out. On PCs, PS1, and the Saturn we had Tomb Raider. On the Saturn we also had NiGHTS into Dreams. On the PS1 we had Crash Bandicoot. All three of these games were just as equally innovative and influential in 3D Platformers as Mario 64. I haven't played Tomb Raider so I don't know how it's camera system works, but I'd say NiGHTS has the camera system closest to what a lot of us now take for granted with camera control mapped to a 2nd analog stick. In NiGHTS you can freely rotate the camera 360 degrees in the horizontal plane. You just can't move it vertically if I remember correctly.

I had Crash on the DS; a pretty nifty platformer but as you wrote it's not exactly 3D. It'll be interesting to see where they take Sonic next as well; there's no going back to the Adventure—Unleashed days.

You are aware of the fact that Generations uses the exact same engine as Unleashed and as a result plays exactly like it right? Honestly the only bad Modern Sonic game I played was Sonic 2006.

[Barone]

It didn't?

It probably defined the concept of "broken camera".


1994:


1995:

[sheath]

Mario 64's broken camera has also defined 3D platformers ever since. Don't have good enough AI for the camera? Make the player control it so it doesn't go through walls and stuff. Great job Nintendo.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

It probably defined the concept of "broken camera".


1994:


1995:

Don't forget this:

1996:

[chinitosoccer]

I see SM64 an experiment for one of the worst consoles ever released, is not just the camera but gameplay and controls are also shit, I don't understand why there's people who still bothers with playing N64 games, although there are a few exceptions to this rule, and I know I'm alone in this, but I can't stand those primitive 3D graphics from the PS1/Saturn/N64 era, so.. being generous...I'd say there's something like 5-6 N64 titles which I consider "playable" games.

[Soulis]

Mario 64 has broken camera. To prove it, lets compare it with a couple First Person games (sigh) and a few others that don't even have big free roaming worlds or freedom of movement, like Bug. Great job, i'm convinced.

Also, Mario never had full voice acting even when his games got into DVDs. Same with Link. See, Miyamoto is against voice acting in these games and i agree with him because voice acting can easily ruin any classic character if its not good. Sonic and Samus (OtherM) are 2 fine examples.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Sure he says that now, but I bet you any money if the N64 was a CD based system Mario 64 would have had voice acting. You can tell they wanted voice acting in the game, as there's parts that are narrated with character voices, and Mario actually does say things. He doesn't just grunt like Link. Not to mention he had no problem with putting full voice acting into Starfox 64.

Honestly Samus's voice acting in Other:M didn't bother me. The only thing that did bother me was the PTSD bit during the Ridley fight. But honestly it's a bit hard to complain about it now as we had seen it coming for years ever since Fusion came out. If fans didn't like it they should have spoken up right then and there. Instead fans praised Fusion, and then we got Zero Mission which pushed this idea of Samus being Bounty Hunter Barbie with emotional problems even further. Fans ate it up and then we got the Metroid Manga which pushed this further. While I wasn't happy with Other:M's story and portrayal of Samus's character, it's not fair to blame it entirely on Other:M. Nintendo had been pushing down this route for years. The only reason the Prime Series didn't do this is because they weren't developed by the same team. The point is though, the voice acting didn't ruin that classic character. Nintendo's decision to turn her into Bounty Hunter Barbie did. And Sonic's voice acting didn't ruin his character either. If anything it felt like a natural progression. Sonic had already been talking for years in official movies and licensed cartoons anyways.

As for Mario 64's broken camera, this picture is all you need to prove it:
Mario64.jpg

So what direction should I push to go down that ramp? Is there even a ramp there? It could be a bottomless pit for all I know.