So I gave Mario 64 another try over the weekend...

[Segadream]

Sonic 1 and Mario world are not even comparable to me. They each portray what the systems were going to be able to preform. Even though they expanded greatly afterwards.
Gameplay wise they both did very well. Where I always find fault is when they use the rep of these great figures and tarnish them with shoddy design and untrue sequels.
At least knuckles Chaotix stayed true. Most people didn't like the 64's controller.
Even though I thought it was very good. I do wish the Gameboy expansion was done ala super Gameboy though. I'm gonna go play some pokemon now,(maybe it will induce a seizure so I can rest in my coma until the "Wii Overcast" comes out.)

[Bottino]

I had to do a double take that I was actually on Sega 16 when I read Sonic 1 of all games getting bashed by multiple people.

Sometimes that happens to me too.

[old man]

Where are people "bashing" Sonic 1 at?

[kool kitty89]

Camera wise: Sonic Adventure 2 >>Sonic Adventure >>Mario 64.

Mario 64's camera is OK once you get used to it, but it's still a pain in the ass overall, and it's a lot worse if you want to get through something quickly. (being patient and tip-toeing around certain areas works a lot better at times -actually, on that note, I don't remember ever trying to jump over a sleeping piranha plant, but typically tiptoe past them or tip-toe up to them and attack iirc)

And, honestly, clipping through walls with the camera in Sonic is a lot less annoying that having the PoV go super close to Mario . . . aside from the rare case of the walls not being clipped away (ie camera on the other side of an opaque wall -very uncommon in my experience).

Mario Sunshine's camera is improved over all of those, but that's a newer game still too. (and I'd put SA2's in the same league at the very least)

[kool kitty89]

I rarely even need to mess with the camera in Sonic Adventure. And when I do, the shoulder buttons are more than enough to show me what I need to see. The problem with Mario 64's camera system is that you can only move it left or right in 90 degrees. If I could simply move it freely left or right like you can in NiGHTS or Sonic Adventure this would be significantly better. Instead you have the choice of 4 fixed angles that aren't as good as they could be.

The camera becomes more of a problem in Adventure Field and in the roaming action stages. (particularly emerald hunting) It's still not as bad as Mario 64 in that respect though. (particularly comparing the more apples to apples examples)

You are aware of the fact that Generations uses the exact same engine as Unleashed and as a result plays exactly like it right? Honestly the only bad Modern Sonic game I played was Sonic 2006.

Level design makes a huge difference on the same game engine. Hell, if you took the better/more interesting stages out of Sonic '06 and reworked them into that same (actually functional) engine, you'd probably have a very decent game overall. (ie cut out the totally stupid/boring stages, the overworlds, and then the separate issue of the actual "story" )

That's what also makes Generations more fun to play than Unleashed or Colors . . . at least for people who liked the Sonic Adventure 2 gameplay mechanics more. (from all I've seen, they refined the 3D stages in Generations a lot more and cut way back on the horrible "boost to win" aspects of Unleashed and Colors . . . and obviously avoided the stupid Secret Rings and Black Knight -or '06 "mach" sections- with on-rails auto-run)
I'm personally hoping this game stands up to the reviews I've seen, particularly those critical of many of the areas my brother and I have personally felt over the recent Sonic games. We'll find out once we get it I suppose. (one more thing to do after I complete my gaming PC)

Sure he says that now, but I bet you any money if the N64 was a CD based system Mario 64 would have had voice acting. You can tell they wanted voice acting in the game, as there's parts that are narrated with character voices, and Mario actually does say things. He doesn't just grunt like Link. Not to mention he had no problem with putting full voice acting into Starfox 64.

Totally agree . . . as it is there IS actual voice acting in Mario 64, just very, very little. (ie Peach's voiceovers)

I wonder if OOT was ever planned with full voice acting back when it was targeting the DD. (then again, the capacity of that was still much more limited than CD-ROM, but 64 MB was still a lot of space, and Conker's bad Fur Day had full voice acted cutscenes with that, and RE2 even had streaming video)

And please explain how some beeps and boops emulates voice acting in the original Starfox? It's not like they couldn't have done actual voice acting on the SNES. And honestly I'd say Mario 64 has enough voice acting in it as it is to consider it to be pretty well voiced. And I honestly find Mario's voice to be far more annoying than any of Sonic's voices.

Sonic's in-game SFX didn't start getting annoying until Heroes, and it got worse from there. IMO Cutscene acting is another story entirely, and Sonic Adventure is pretty awful in that respect. (flat/weak delivery for the most part, and then the weird graphical portion as well -odd posing and way off mouthing and emoting, in any language- SA2 did all that much better, with much better directing/acting in spite of using mostly the same cast . . . it's been pretty hit and miss since then though, regardless of production value)

Hell, Star Fox on SNES DID have actual voice acting too, but very limited. (ending cutscene mostly, but also the short voice clips in other cutscenes and such)

Now you are just talking nonsense.

Starfox had tons of "spoken" dialogue through the radios, the radios were an important part of the atmosphere for a game like that and they needed some sound along with the text. But if you think that they could fit all that with real spoken dialogue in a cart, in 1993, you are talking nonsense.

Having lots of dialog as text has nothing to do with the quantity of voice acting used in game (or in cutscenes for that matter).
Even so, there's relatively limited dialog used in Star Fox anyway. (Silpheed's in-game speech totals more than the few -mostly repetitive- dialog clips in SNES Star Fox . . . Star Fox 2 is another matter though)

Star Fox Command used gibberish voices again, but with mountains of text dialog compared to SNES SF, or even 64.

I understand when looking from a retrospective. The general consensus seems to be that Nintendo improved their own 3D platformer formula with later releases. Except for Sunshine... That game didn't thrill me either.

I don't enjoy Super Mario 64 as much as I did when I owned a Nintendo 64. Playing it on the Wii, even with a better controller, it feels a little tedious. Massive props to it being a pioneer of the genre, but it hasn't aged as well as I hoped it would.

I am not a big fan of either Super Mario 64 or Sonic Adventure, both in terms of camera and in other ways. That said, I do think Mario 64's camera is worse, and I don't understand why people think "it was new in 1996" is an argument. Being novel and being good are two separate things. Giving Mario 64 praise for having camera control seems backwards to me. I'd rather not have to mess with the camera at all. I think it would have been better if it didn't have camera buttons (maybe a "look around" button, but that's it). Either have the camera work properly on its own, or keep it in a relatively locked position. I never had camera issues with Crash Bandicoot.

Tomb Raider's camera in 1996 (with no manual controls) didn't fare too badly for that even . . . and that includes the platforming segments. Actually, I think it might be a bit easier to center the camera in Tomb Raider than Mario 64. (Zelda OOT did it better in both regards though -in terms of camera control in an action-adventure game, and obviously in terms of centering thanks to the Z button mechanics)

Hell, in most games WITH camera controls, you still have to fiddle around with character movement/positioning to really get the camera remotely close to where you want it. (and that's the main way I adjust the camera in Mario 64)

Early 3D platformers are rubbish by today's standards. Heck even PS2 "classics" I wouldn't bother with nowadays. Frankly it's good that 3D platforming isn't its own genre anymore.

You definitely did not play Crash Bandicoot. Although to be fair, Crash isn't really "3D", it's more of a 2D platformer that keeps changing the camera around. It's also what I wanted a 3D sonic game on the Saturn to be like, and what modern Sonic (like in sonic generations) plays like.

I agree about Sonic on the Saturn potentially working well like that.

OTOH, in general, I much prefer the "common" 3D platformer styles of the 5th and 6th generation. There's a bunch still on my list to play, but that's really one of my favorite gameplay styles (be it mission/level based semi-linear point to point stuff or open world exploration stages with goals, they're both lots of fun . . . more fun for me than 2D platformers on average )

That and I don't care for most of the game mechanics in recent Sonic titles (especially the "boost to win" thing -Generations apparently improves that, but I've yet to try it myself) and I just don't have fun with either Mario Galaxy game. (Mario 64 and Sunshine are both much more fun in terms of sheer gameplay experience . . . Sunshine wins by far in everything but style/mood/tone where Mario 64 has an edge in the mix of light-hearted cartoonie stuff along with more atmospheric and dark stages as well, overall Sunshine is definitely the best 3D Mario platform game IMO)

[Soulis]

Sure he says that now, but I bet you any money if the N64 was a CD based system Mario 64 would have had voice acting. You can tell they wanted voice acting in the game, as there's parts that are narrated with character voices, and Mario actually does say things. He doesn't just grunt like Link. Not to mention he had no problem with putting full voice acting into Starfox 64.

Totally agree . . . as it is there IS actual voice acting in Mario 64, just very, very little. (ie Peach's voiceovers)

I wonder if OOT was ever planned with full voice acting back when it was targeting the DD. (then again, the capacity of that was still much more limited than CD-ROM, but 64 MB was still a lot of space, and Conker's bad Fur Day had full voice acted cutscenes with that, and RE2 even had streaming video)

I don't get it, why are you guys so sure that Mario or Zelda were going to have full voice acting back then if the N64 was CD based? If all they needed was a different medium then why there isn't full voice acting on more recent Mario/Zelda games on GC and Wii? That, unless there any sources for these claims and i completely missed them.

I mean, from what i have seen so far, Miyamoto looks like the guy who just doesn't like voice acting in games.

[kool kitty89]

I don't get it, why are you all so sure that Mario or Zelda were going to have full voice acting back then if the N64 was CD based? If all they needed was a different medium then why there isn't full voice acting on more recent Mario/Zelda games on GC and Wii? Unless there any sources for these claims and i completely missed them.

I'm not sure, but I certainly feel it's quite probable, especially for Mario (ie the limited amount of text dialog would be voice acted and maybe a few cutscenes added)

Why they haven't used it since then is more easily explained: style precedent, and having that style established on the N64 with good reception.
That and cost . . . if they can get away with decent, stylized voice/sound bites and giberish rather than full voice acting, then why not? (real voice acting is a lot easier to screw up and a lot more costly . . . even more costly to do really well)

Same thing for the likes of those games lacking prerendered "eye candy" cutscenes. (with out without voices, I certainly could have imagined Zelda being done that way)

[sketch]

My two cents:

Mario 64 was a groundbreaking title. It was the first 3D platformer (or at least the first I recall), and it's no easy task to bring platforming into 3D. Is it perfect? No. But for the time, it was a pretty impressive title. Perhaps it hasn't aged well (I can't say as I have no way of playing it now), but I do think it was a fun and well made game.

Two points to keep in mind:

1) Even though many 3D platformers came after Mario 64, most of them sucked (including Sonic Adventure, IMHO). The only one that surpassed Mario 64 was Rayman 2, which was an incredible looking and playing game.

2) All third person game cameras are problematic. A lot of whether or not you can stand the camera in a given game seems to be a matter of taste, but I hear the camera placement as an issue when people talk about third person games so much I take it as a given. I found Mario's camera to work fine in that it never kept me from enjoying the game.

Also, the controls on Mario were relative, not absolute. You really have to get used to that to enjoy the game. If you can't, then the game definitely won't be enjoyable. Again, I didn't find it to be a problem, but it's all pretty subjective. I do, however, believe Mario 64 was a landmark game in that it did something that hadn't been done before, and did it well (for its time). It's probably not everyone's cup of tea, but neither are platformers.

[Bottino]

Kook kity is a boss.

1) Even though many 3D platformers came after Mario 64, most of them sucked (including Sonic Adventure, IMHO).


.

Tá serto!

[Soulis]

Even though many 3D platformers came after Mario 64, most of them sucked (including Sonic Adventure, IMHO). The only one that surpassed Mario 64 was Rayman 2, which was an incredible looking and playing game.

Banjo-Kazooie was great.

[sketch]

Banjo-Kazooie was great.

I never tried that one, honestly. I did hear good things about it back when it was current.

[Black_Tiger]

Mario 64 was just rushed to make the launch, that's why it doesn't have more voice work than it does. The Japanese version doesn't have any(?) Peach speech and WAY less things that Mario says in-game. They added a large amount of voice in-between launches and could have added even more if the game was designed around it.

[sketch]

Mario 64 was just rushed to make the launch, that's why it doesn't have more voice work than it does. The Japanese version doesn't have any(?) Peach speech and WAY less things that Mario says in-game. They added a large amount of voice in-between launches and could have added even more if the game was designed around it.

I'm not sure dialogue would do much to enhance a game like this. And I've always found Mario's voice (and those of the other characters in the Marioverse) to be annoying anyway. I prefer the game as is.

[Segadream]

Sonic should always sound like Urkel to me.
And Wario on MK64 had the best taunt ever.

[Soulis]

I'm not sure dialogue would do much to enhance a game like this. And I've always found Mario's voice (and those of the other characters in the Marioverse) to be annoying anyway. I prefer the game as is.

Exactly, Mario doesn't need full voice acting and i thank Miyamoto for not allowing such a thing. Sonic Team should have done the same.