N64/PS1/Saturn/DC sales - US NPD

[gamevet]

I don't know why you're forcing me to repeat myself, but once again, Sony's anti-2d and anti-RPG policies were not total bans. They were "not many of these kinds of games allowed" restrictions. I've said this multiple times now.

The comment is unfounded, considering that the Playstation has one of the largest North American RPG lineups in console history.

Alundra
Alundra 2
Arc the Lad Collection
Azure Dream
Battle Hunter
Beyond the Beyond
Brave Fencer Musashi
Breath of Fire III
Breath of Fire IV
Brigandine
Chrono Cross
Chocobo's Dungeon 2
Darkstone
Diablo
Dragon Seeds
Dragon Valor
Dragon Warrior VII
Eternal Eyes
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy VIII
Final Fantasy IX
Final Fantasy Anthology
Final Fantasy Chronicles
Final Fantasy Origins
Final Fantasy Tactics
Front Mission 3
Grandia
Granstream Saga
Guardian's Crusade
Hoshigami: Ruining Blue Earth
Jade Cocoon
Kartia: Word of Fate
King's Field
King's Field II
Koudelka
Legend of Dragoon
Legend of Legaia
Legend of Mana
Lunar Silver Star Story Box Set
Lunar II Eternal Blue Box Set
Monster Seed
Ogre Battle
Parasite Eve
Parasite Eve 2
Persona
Persona II: Eternal Punishment
Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure
RPG Maker
Saga Frontier
Saga Frontier 2
Saiyuki: Journey West
Shadow Madness
Shadow Tower
Star Ocean: Second Story
Suikoden
Suikoden II
Tactics Ogre: Let us Cling Together
Tales of Destiny
Tales of Destiny II
Thousand Arms
Threads of Fate
Torneko: The Last Hope
Vagrant Story
Valkyrie Profile
Vandal Hearts
Vandal Hearts II
Vanguard Bandits
Wild Arms
Wild Arms 2
Xenogears


Even SCEA published a few RPGs, as well as the 2D NFL Gameday.

SCEA

Alundra Dec. 1997
Legend of Legaia Mar. 1999
Final Fantasy VII Sept. 1997
Beyond the Beyond Aug. 1996
NFL Gameday Dec. 1995
Wild Arms April 1997
Wild Arms 2 April 2000

MKR had been approved before he came to Sega, hadn't it? And as for those other two, I'd guess that that's either because Sega of Japan required him to release those games (they were in charge after all), or he decided to release them out of a lack of any other decent options. Also Shining Force was a known, popular series, so releasing that wasn't too unexpected. And Panzer Dragoon Saga may have had a genre shift, but the first two games had been popular here.

I've already posted articles that said he was in charge of what happened in North America. It was part of the stipulation to his hiring and it was Stolar that orchestrated the retail and western software support for the DC.

I honestly don't know when Working Designs started porting MKR for NA. I can't imagine how long it would have taken WD to port Grandia, considering how much larger that game is than MKR.

It doesn't matter how popular the Shining and PD series were; he still gave those RPGs the go, even though he was supposedly against that genre. Shining: The Holy Ark was released under his tenure as well.

I have no idea why you're trying to deny that Sony had anti-2d and anti-RPG policies, but the fact that they have has been so thoroughly documented, and we've mentioned some sources and examples too. Have you looked in to any of them? I mean, you seem to be ignoring the ones that have been provided so far (SNK, for example, and Capcom), so I don't know if mentioning more would have much of a point.

I can see why SNK got the no-go on the KOF series. It was ridiculous for them to release a new title in that series every year. Still, Capcom and SNK had a pretty good lineup of 2D games and RPGs that were given the green light.

Capcom

DarkStalkers: The Night Warriors 1996
Mega Man 8 January 1997
Mega Man X4 Sept. 1997
X-Men: Children of the Atom Jan. 1998
Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo Jan. 1997
Street Fighter: The Movie Aug. 1995
Street Fighter Alpha 2 Nov. 1996
Street Fighter Alpha Dec. 1995
Super Gem Fighter Mini Mix July 1998
Marvel Super Heroes 1997
Darkstalkers 3 1998
Street Fighter Collection Nov. 1997
Breath of Fire III Sept. 1997
Breath of Fire IV Nov. 2008



SNK

Fatal Fury: Wild Ambition Nov. 1999
The King of Fighters '95 Aug. 1996
The King of Fighter '99 Aug 1999
Metal Slug X Jan. 2001

It continued on with the PS2 for PS2 games. They reduced the restrictions on their old console after the next one had released. I've explained this before too. I assumed that you knew this, this was common knowledge back then, that that's why all of those 2d games started showing up in the early '00s. Sony drops restrictions and reduces licensing fees late in console generations. They've done it with the PS1, PS2, and PSP. (For some evidence for that last one -- see Vic Ireland's latest PSP game, School of Heroes 2. I believe he's said how it was easier to do now than it would have been earlier. For the PS1, see games like Strikers 1945. And for the PS2, King of Fighters XI is a good one.)

There weren't exactly a ton of 2D games being produced for the PS2 anyways. Capcom had most of their 2D fighter games/collections released on the PS2, as well as their Capcom Classics collection. Taito, Namco, Midway, Atari (infogames), Intellevision and Tecmo were allowed to release all of their classic compilations on the PS2, throughout its existence. The PSP had a lot of those old classics collections released early on, as well as classic RPGs from the Playstation and PS2.

[A Black Falcon]

The comment is unfounded, considering that the Playstation has one of the largest North American RPG lineups in console history.

Alundra
Alundra 2
Arc the Lad Collection
Azure Dream
Battle Hunter
Beyond the Beyond
Brave Fencer Musashi
Breath of Fire III
Breath of Fire IV
Brigandine
Chrono Cross
Chocobo's Dungeon 2
Darkstone
Diablo
Dragon Seeds
Dragon Valor
Dragon Warrior VII
Eternal Eyes
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy VIII
Final Fantasy IX
Final Fantasy Anthology
Final Fantasy Chronicles
Final Fantasy Origins
Final Fantasy Tactics
Front Mission 3
Grandia
Granstream Saga
Guardian's Crusade
Hoshigami: Ruining Blue Earth
Jade Cocoon
Kartia: Word of Fate
King's Field
King's Field II
Koudelka
Legend of Dragoon
Legend of Legaia
Legend of Mana
Lunar Silver Star Story Box Set
Lunar II Eternal Blue Box Set
Monster Seed
Ogre Battle
Parasite Eve
Parasite Eve 2
Persona
Persona II: Eternal Punishment
Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure
RPG Maker
Saga Frontier
Saga Frontier 2
Saiyuki: Journey West
Shadow Madness
Shadow Tower
Star Ocean: Second Story
Suikoden
Suikoden II
Tactics Ogre: Let us Cling Together
Tales of Destiny
Tales of Destiny II
Thousand Arms
Threads of Fate
Torneko: The Last Hope
Vagrant Story
Valkyrie Profile
Vandal Hearts
Vandal Hearts II
Vanguard Bandits
Wild Arms
Wild Arms 2
Xenogears


Even SCEA published a few RPGs, as well as the 2D NFL Gameday.

SCEA

Alundra Dec. 1997
Legend of Legaia Mar. 1999
Final Fantasy VII Sept. 1997
Beyond the Beyond Aug. 1996
NFL Gameday Dec. 1995
Wild Arms April 1997
Wild Arms 2 April 2000

You do know that I said that Sony's anti-JRPG bias faded after anti-RPG guy Bernie Stolar left, and was pretty much gone after FFVII's massive success, yes? Before FF7 the PS1 had almost no RPGs in the US, in part because of Bernie's opposition to the genre and in part because there weren't many, but after FF7, and after Bernie, Sony allowed in the genre, clearly. I don't think I ever said that Sony kept up the anti-RPG bias after sometime in 1996-1997; they clearly did not. It was more a point about 'one more bad thing about Bernie Stolar's time at Sony' I think.

I've already posted articles that said he was in charge of what happened in North America. It was part of the stipulation to his hiring and it was Stolar that orchestrated the retail and western software support for the DC.

If you're saying that he had total control and Sega of Japan was legally not allowed to tell him that he'd have to release certain titles, I can't really believe that, no, not with how '90s Sega of Japan operated (or Nintendo, which has always kept a lot of control at home as well).

[quote]

I honestly don't know when Working Designs started porting MKR for NA. I can't imagine how long it would have taken WD to port Grandia, considering how much larger that game is than MKR.

MKR was a 1995 release in Japan, and I don't think WD started on it years afterwards. It was just a crazily delayed development... they had to do huge amounts of work on it, or something, because of various issues. I forget the details. WD was slow, but I think that was their slowest release...

It doesn't matter how popular the Shining and PD series were; he still gave those RPGs the go, even though he was supposedly against that genre. Shining: The Holy Ark was released under his tenure as well.

Once again, we don't know the details. Did he approve them on his own, or was he required to release them by Sega of Japan? That is a crucial question I don't think we know the answer to. He may or may not have actually chosen to release those games.

The point that there wasn't much else to release is also a relevant one, of course. They'd killed almost all of their Western development teams and relationships, by 1997, so they didn't have much from here to release either. I've said before in other threads about how the huge contrast about the large number of Western games Sega of America released on the Genesis, versus the small and rapidly shrinking number on the Saturn, shows both Sega's fading fortunes and their giving up on any chance of success in the West, but that really is true, on both counts.

I can see why SNK got the no-go on the KOF series. It was ridiculous for them to release a new title in that series every year. Still, Capcom and SNK had a pretty good lineup of 2D games and RPGs that were given the green light.

Capcom

DarkStalkers: The Night Warriors 1996
Mega Man 8 January 1997
Mega Man X4 Sept. 1997
X-Men: Children of the Atom Jan. 1998
Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo Jan. 1997
Street Fighter: The Movie Aug. 1995
Street Fighter Alpha 2 Nov. 1996
Street Fighter Alpha Dec. 1995
Super Gem Fighter Mini Mix July 1998
Marvel Super Heroes 1997
Darkstalkers 3 1998
Street Fighter Collection Nov. 1997
Breath of Fire III Sept. 1997
Breath of Fire IV Nov. 2008



SNK

Fatal Fury: Wild Ambition Nov. 1999
The King of Fighters '95 Aug. 1996
The King of Fighter '99 Aug 1999
Metal Slug X Jan. 2001

So you dislike SNK games or something, and thus are biased against the idea of releasing sequels? That's absurd. Why is it "ridiculous" toi release yearly sequels in a popular franchise? Lots of companies do that, and I think it's reasonable, as long as the games can be kept good. Once a year isn't THAT crazy a pace. It's actually quite reasonable.

Also, as I said earlier in the thread (did you read it?), Fatal Fury: Wild Ambition, like Samurai Shodown: Warrior's Rage, is a 3d (polygonal) game. It's not 2d. There was Samurai Shodown III on the US PS1, though. That is 2d. But I listed that too, of course.

As for Capcom, they must have had some kind of deal with Sony, because they released far more 2d games than anyone else during the PS1's main life... maybe the fact that some of them sold well, or that Capcom also released a bunch of popular 3d games (Resident Evil, etc.) helped them out there. Smaller, or more 2d-centric, companies would not have gotten such leeway. Capcom also made lots and lots of sequels to its 2d games, as that list of yours proves, so your criticizing SNK for making sequels is fairly hypocritical.

(I like SNK's fighting games better than Capcom's overall.)

There weren't exactly a ton of 2D games being produced for the PS2 anyways. Capcom had most of their 2D fighter games/collections released on the PS2, as well as their Capcom Classics collection. Taito, Namco, Midway, Atari (infogames), Intellevision and Tecmo were allowed to release all of their classic compilations on the PS2, throughout its existence. The PSP had a lot of those old classics collections released early on, as well as classic RPGs from the Playstation and PS2.

As I said earlier, Working Designs and SNK probably suffered the worst from Sony's awful policies, but I'm sure some others were affected as well, we just don't know about it. I mean, if a company said they wanted to localize something and Sony said no, more often than not we'd have just never heard about it at all. WD and SNK are exceptions because they actually talked and explained how Sony's bad policies hurt them.

[gamevet]

You do know that I said that Sony's anti-JRPG bias faded after anti-RPG guy Bernie Stolar left, and was pretty much gone after FFVII's massive success, yes? Before FF7 the PS1 had almost no RPGs in the US, in part because of Bernie's opposition to the genre and in part because there weren't many, but after FF7, and after Bernie, Sony allowed in the genre, clearly. I don't think I ever said that Sony kept up the anti-RPG bias after sometime in 1996-1997; they clearly did not. It was more a point about 'one more bad thing about Bernie Stolar's time at Sony' I think.

You don't even remember what you've said.

I don't know why you're forcing me to repeat myself, but once again, Sony's anti-2d and anti-RPG policies were not total bans. They were "not many of these kinds of games allowed" restrictions. I've said this multiple times now.

You didn't say Stolar's bans, you said Sony's. Big difference!

I've already proven that the available RPGs of the time were not only published by SCEA, before Final Fantasy VII, but that SCEA had allowed every RPG available at the time (excluding Arc the Lad) to be available in the west.

[A Black Falcon]

You don't even remember what you've said.


You didn't say Stolar's bans, you said Sony's. Big difference!

No, I said Stolar earlier in the thread. I wasn't referring to my last post there, but earlier stuff.

I've already proven that the available RPGs of the time were not only published by SCEA, before Final Fantasy VII, but that SCEA had allowed every RPG available at the time (excluding Arc the Lad) to be available in the west.

So for some strange reason you think the fact that Bernie Stolar was vocally opposed to localizing many RPGs is irrelevant? Huh?

[Team Andromeda]

You do know that I said that Sony's anti-JRPG bias faded after anti-RPG guy Bernie Stolar left, and was pretty much gone after FFVII's massive success, yes? Before FF7 the PS1 had almost no RPGs in the US, in part because of Bernie's opposition to the genre and in part because there weren't many, but after FF7, and after Bernie, Sony allowed in the genre, clearly. I don't think I ever said that Sony kept up the anti-RPG bias after sometime in 1996-1997; they clearly did not. It was more a point about 'one more bad thing about Bernie Stolar's time at Sony' I thin

Well said and it also shows after the FF 7 hype how foolish Bernie was not to translate Grandia to the West on the Saturn .

If you're saying that he had total control and Sega of Japan was legally not allowed to tell him that he'd have to release certain titles

Yep SOA would pick up from SOJ what games they wanted - SOJ had little control on what games would be picked up really

I honestly don't know when Working Designs started porting MKR for NA. I can't imagine how long it would have taken WD to port Grandia, considering how much larger that game is than MKR.

MKR suffered from the bust up with SEGA and WD for staters and also like with any TV/Film licensed game from Japan - You have issues over image and name rights oversea's which can be a pain in the ass to sort out and of course the Japanese version had full speech and speaking parts for every character in whole the game . Grandia would have been a far easier translation process

As for Capcom, they must have had some kind of deal with Sony, because they released far more 2d games than anyone else during the PS1's main life

Yes they did thanks to multi million selling titles like RE in Japan . Just like EA have a special deal with MS

It doesn't matter how popular the Shining and PD series were; he still gave those RPGs the go, even though he was supposedly against that genre. Shining: The Holy Ark was released under his tenure as well.

He didn't like quirky 2D games or was fan of RPG's - He's on record on saying that . But just because you don't like something doesn't mean you'll veto every single 2D game or RPG - more so when you system is in desperate need of some software

[gamevet]

No, I said Stolar earlier in the thread. I wasn't referring to my last post there, but earlier stuff.

Here you go. You can't seem to choose where you're coming from.

It continued on with the PS2 for PS2 games. They reduced the restrictions on their old console after the next one had released. I've explained this before too. I assumed that you knew this, this was common knowledge back then, that that's why all of those 2d games started showing up in the early '00s. Sony drops restrictions and reduces licensing fees late in console generations. They've done it with the PS1, PS2, and PSP.

So for some strange reason you think the fact that Bernie Stolar was vocally opposed to localizing many RPGs is irrelevant? Huh?

The North American release list, compared to what was available in Japan, shows that SCEA had pretty much localized most of the RPGs that were available during his tenure. The only major RPG that got left behind was Arc the Lad. There's the old saying: "Action not words" and the body of evidence doesn't support those words.

[A Black Falcon]

Here you go. You can't seem to choose where you're coming from.

There I was talking about the restrictions on 2d games (and, for the PSP only, straight ports). Also licensing fees too, perhaps; they made it cheaper to publish on the system and reduced restrictions (such as the 2d restrictions) after releasing their next console. Maybe I could have specified that of course they'd started allowing RPG releases pretty much unrestricted back in '97, but I'd already said that the RPG thing was only early on, so I didn't there.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post593658
There we go, "the anti-RPG bias changed after he left". I made that point clear early on.

The North American release list, compared to what was available in Japan, shows that SCEA had pretty much localized most of the RPGs that were available during his tenure. The only major RPG that got left behind was Arc the Lad. There's the old saying: "Action not words" and the body of evidence doesn't support those words.

Once again, words matter, and attitudes matter.

Well said and it also shows after the FF 7 hype how foolish Bernie was not to translate Grandia to the West on the Saturn .

This is definitely true.

Yep SOA would pick up from SOJ what games they wanted - SOJ had little control on what games would be picked up really

From when on? SOJ obviously had a lot of control for a long time, over what games were being made, etc... like, forcing Sonic X-Treme to make major unnecessary changes to the project that doomed it, cancelling Eternal Champions 3, etc. That doesn't sound like "total control over what we release" to me; Japan had the ultimate power of the purse.

MKR suffered from the bust up with SEGA and WD for staters and also like with any TV/Film licensed game from Japan - You have issues over image and name rights oversea's which can be a pain in the ass to sort out and of course the Japanese version had full speech and speaking parts for every character in whole the game . Grandia would have been a far easier translation process

Good points.

Yes they did thanks to multi million selling titles like RE in Japan . Just like EA have a special deal with MS

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Capcom has to have had a special deal.

He didn't like quirky 2D games or was fan of RPG's - He's on record on saying that . But just because you don't like something doesn't mean you'll veto every single 2D game or RPG - more so when you system is in desperate need of some software

Indeed.

[gamevet]

There I was talking about the restrictions on 2d games (and, for the PSP only, straight ports). Also licensing fees too, perhaps; they made it cheaper to publish on the system and reduced restrictions (such as the 2d restrictions) after releasing their next console. Maybe I could have specified that of course they'd started allowing RPG releases pretty much unrestricted back in '97, but I'd already said that the RPG thing was only early on, so I didn't there.

The restrictions on 2D games is really unfounded. The PS2 had Super Bust-A-Move a month after the system launched in North America. That game is not only 2D, it also has a very niche audience. The Playstation and PS2 also had old compilations of arcade games during those consoles' prime.

The PSP didn't have straight ports of everything. Valkyie Profile Lenneth had added cut-scenes and tied the story between the Playstation original title and the PS2 sequel. Lumines and Patapon were titles that originated on the PSP. Final Fantasy IV: Complete has The After Years that ties the story together. Darkstalkers Chronicle: The Chaos Tower was a port of the (Japan Only) Dreamcast game. And Fat Princess was launched on the PSP, in conjunction with the PS3 game.

Once again, words matter, and attitudes matter.

Vic Ireland never heard those words directly from Stolar. I'd wager that it was Ireland's words that created that vibe, more than a couple of guys from Capcom and SNK.

http://www.lunar-net.com/interviews/vic.php

Webber: So your stance with Sega, even after Bernie's press conference the other day where he said that RPGs, fighting games, and...... he mentioned three genre's as being the most important for Dreamcast, and RPGs was one of them?

Vic: Only because he found out that they sell. He's not a leader, he is a follower. Sony legitimized that segment, and he has seen the money. Because when he was at Sony he was the one who said RPGs were not significant. He told us, one person removed from him, his representative said- Bernie said RPGs are not a significant portion of the market, we do not want to support them in the US. Thats why Arc the Lad didn't come out, we were pushing for Arc the Lad. We were going to release that game, and they wouldn't let us license it from Sony of Japan, and they wouldn't let us release it here. Because they said they(RPGs) weren't significant. The only reason he changed that tune is because he's seen Final Fantasy 7 sales, and he's seen that if you put money behind it(an RPG), and it's a good to great RPG it'll sell, and it always would have. He's a follower, he's a business man who has no idea about games

And look at how much of a douchbag Ireland is. The guy purposely held back the release of MKR, so he could say he published the last North American title for the Saturn.

Vic: We awanted to make it the last Saturn game released. We wanted to make it so far out that there are no other games coming. So that all the people who said "we suck" "you ditched Sega". Well hey we stuck with it til the very end, beyond enyone else. You know everyone was jumping ship, they just weren't saying it publicly, they were all doing it privately, but I'm to retarded to keep my mouth shut.

From when on? SOJ obviously had a lot of control for a long time, over what games were being made, etc... like, forcing Sonic X-Treme to make major unnecessary changes to the project that doomed it, cancelling Eternal Champions 3, etc. That doesn't sound like "total control over what we release" to me; Japan had the ultimate power of the purse.

Sonic Xtreme wasn't Stolar's baby to begin with and neither was EC3. Stolar cut the work force in North America from 300 to @ 80 and selected the titles he felt he could close out the console with. If he was in charge in December of 96, that would mean that he had approved Shining:The Holy Ark. And if Japan was in total control of what software a region would get, then why would Europe get Deep Fear and not North America?

This is where the contradiction comes into place. If Japan was in control of the Saturn games being released during Stolar's tenure, that would mean that his anti 2D/RPG stance had no effect on what was released in North America.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Capcom has to have had a special deal.
.

That and those Capcom 2D franchises were proven sellers.

[A Black Falcon]

The restrictions on 2D games is really unfounded. The PS2 had Super Bust-A-Move a month after the system launched in North America. That game is not only 2D, it also has a very niche audience. The Playstation and PS2 also had old compilations of arcade games during those consoles' prime.

Compilations are not single-game releases. I really don't understand what you're doing, are you even reading my posts? How many times do I need to say that their main target on the PS2 was single-title "old-looking" 2d games? Compilations could be allowed, often, and "newer-looking" 2d games like Guilty Gear, but "old-looking" ones like Metal Slug or Growlanser were not okay.

As for Super Bust-A-Move, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some kind of exception for puzzle games, since those games are usually 2d. I don't know any details of course, but that would make sense. It was also probably a franchise with a history of selling in the US on Playstation (BAM 2, '99 (3), and 4 were on PS1 after all). And on that note, they obviously allowed lots of 2d puzzle games on the PS1 as well, probably for the same reason -- almost all puzzle games were 2d anyway, so it was either ban most of the genre or let people release them, and they obviously did the latter.

Once again, sure, you can find examples of entirely 2d PS1 games from its main life. The system had some 2d platformers in the US (Punky Skunk for example), lots of 2d puzzle games, etc. Yes, they allowed SOME entirely 2d games. The key term there is "some". They allowed some 2d games, but thought that most games should be 3d, and were biased against 2d. I don't know why you think this is irrelevant, but it certainly had an impact on which games were localized in the US.

The PSP didn't have straight ports of everything. Valkyie Profile Lenneth had added cut-scenes and tied the story between the Playstation original title and the PS2 sequel. Lumines and Patapon were titles that originated on the PSP. Final Fantasy IV: Complete has The After Years that ties the story together. Darkstalkers Chronicle: The Chaos Tower was a port of the (Japan Only) Dreamcast game. And Fat Princess was launched on the PSP, in conjunction with the PS3 game.

YOu need to actually read the posts you're replying to! I said that Sony of America had a stated policy that, through most of the PSP's life, they did not allow any straight ports to be released on the PSP in the US unless the games were significantly altered, as Valkyrie Profile: Lenneth or DarkStalkers: The Chaos Tower (Chaos Tower mode is new) were. However, in Japan and Europe, straight ports WERE allowed, because only SCE America has a history of stupid restrictions on what games it allows studios to release. So, for instance, Tales of Eternia (US "Tales of Destiny 2" for PS1) was released in Japan and Europe, but because it was a straight port of a PS1 game, it could not be released in the US. We probably would have gotten it otherwise.

I was saying nothing about the rest of the PSP library, of course.

Vic Ireland never heard those words directly from Stolar. I'd wager that it was Ireland's words that created that vibe, more than a couple of guys from Capcom and SNK.

http://www.lunar-net.com/interviews/vic.php

Everything he says in this quote is surely true. And I do not think that he is the only source for the RPG thing, no.

And look at how much of a douchbag Ireland is. The guy purposely held back the release of MKR, so he could say he published the last North American title for the Saturn.

If he was going to release it, why not? It's not like it'd have sold much better six months earlier, anyway. I don't see anything objectionable in doing that. He felt obligated to release it because WD never cancelled announced projects, but did that just to show off Sega, or something. Well, Bernie Stolar's Sega deserved it.

Sonic Xtreme wasn't Stolar's baby to begin with and neither was EC3.

Was there anything that WAS, for Saturn? I certainly can't think of anything. He wanted it dead after all.

Stolar cut the work force in North America from 300 to @ 80 and selected the titles he felt he could close out the console with. If he was in charge in December of 96, that would mean that he had approved Shining:The Holy Ark. And if Japan was in total control of what software a region would get, then why would Europe get Deep Fear and not North America?

This is where the contradiction comes into place. If Japan was in control of the Saturn games being released during Stolar's tenure, that would mean that his anti 2D/RPG stance had no effect on what was released in North America.

I don't think we have an answer to that question, so I don't really want to speculate. Of course it'd be nice to know who actually approved what, but we don't. Japan certainly had ultimate budget control, though, for which games Sega actually developed.

As for Deep Fear, maybe he didn't release it because he wanted to be done with Saturn, even though Sega had nothing to replace it, and the game would have released here after the last first-party Saturn game? The last first-party Saturn games released by May 31 in the US, but Deep Fear didn't release in Europe until the end of June.

That and those Capcom 2D franchises were proven sellers.

Perhaps, but I'm sure they didn't ALL sell great.

[gamevet]

Compilations are not single-game releases. I really don't understand what you're doing, are you even reading my posts? How many times do I need to say that their main target on the PS2 was single-title "old-looking" 2d games? Compilations could be allowed, often, and "newer-looking" 2d games like Guilty Gear, but "old-looking" ones like Metal Slug or Growlanser were not okay.

As for Super Bust-A-Move, I wouldn't be surprised if they had some kind of exception for puzzle games, since those games are usually 2d. I don't know any details of course, but that would make sense. It was also probably a franchise with a history of selling in the US on Playstation (BAM 2, '99 (3), and 4 were on PS1 after all). And on that note, they obviously allowed lots of 2d puzzle games on the PS1 as well, probably for the same reason -- almost all puzzle games were 2d anyway, so it was either ban most of the genre or let people release them, and they obviously did the latter.

Once again, sure, you can find examples of entirely 2d PS1 games from its main life. The system had some 2d platformers in the US (Punky Skunk for example), lots of 2d puzzle games, etc. Yes, they allowed SOME entirely 2d games. The key term there is "some". They allowed some 2d games, but thought that most games should be 3d, and were biased against 2d. I don't know why you think this is irrelevant, but it certainly had an impact on which games were localized in the US.

You can find a lot of 2D PS1 titles near launch, including Sony's own NFL Gameday. I've already listed other titles like In the Hunt (old looking), Street Fighter Alpha, MK3 and Street Fighter: The Movie.

I can see why Sony might have objected to Metal Slug, if SNK thought they were going to sell if for $50. Metal Slug X was released at a much friendlier price of $40.

Why not look at your beloved N64? That console was pretty much a vacant lot, when it came to 2D titles.

YOu need to actually read the posts you're replying to! I said that Sony of America had a stated policy that, through most of the PSP's life, they did not allow any straight ports to be released on the PSP in the US unless the games were significantly altered, as Valkyrie Profile: Lenneth or DarkStalkers: The Chaos Tower (Chaos Tower mode is new) were. However, in Japan and Europe, straight ports WERE allowed, because only SCE America has a history of stupid restrictions on what games it allows studios to release. So, for instance, Tales of Eternia (US "Tales of Destiny 2" for PS1) was released in Japan and Europe, but because it was a straight port of a PS1 game, it could not be released in the US. We probably would have gotten it otherwise.

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That's not what I'd read.

There I was talking about the restrictions on 2d games (and, for the PSP only, straight ports).

The Pinball HOF games were straight ports of the PS2 games. Castlevania: Rondo of Blood and Symphony of the Night were ports of the previous titles. It was pretty much a mixed bag of what you got with the ports to the PSP.

[A Black Falcon]

You can find a lot of 2D PS1 titles near launch, including Sony's own NFL Gameday. I've already listed other titles like In the Hunt (old looking), Street Fighter Alpha, MK3 and Street Fighter: The Movie.

Isn't NFL Gameday 2d scaling sprites stuff? That's a bit different from being entirely 2d, if it's using some hardware power that 4th gen systems couldn't do (without a 32X or maybe Sega CD), such as lots of sprite scaling. Those other three were popular fighting games, Sony was going to allow those. Later in the generation 3d took over for fighting games, but in '95-96, many of the top ones were still 2d. As for In the Hunt, I don't know why they approved that one, and Raiden Project as well. Obviously those fell into that "approve a few 2d games even though we generally don't like them" category.

I can see why Sony might have objected to Metal Slug, if SNK thought they were going to sell if for $50. Metal Slug X was released at a much friendlier price of $40.

I don't know if SNK wanted to bring Metal Slug over or not, but why would Sony object to it at $50? It's an amazing game, even if its sequels are even better...

Why not look at your beloved N64? That console was pretty much a vacant lot, when it came to 2D titles.

True, but the situation wasn't much different in Japan. That was a result of developers just not releasing 2d games for the system, it wasn't because of a first-party policy that openly questioned 2d games. Nintendo didn't do that. It's just that most N64 games were 3d, because that's what the market mostly wanted. Puzzle games were mostly 2d, of course, as were a few others, but that's about it yeah. But again, that's quite different from Sony; Nintendo didn't make releasing 2d games hard, there just weren't many to release.

That's not what I'd read.

What do you mean?

The Pinball HOF games were straight ports of the PS2 games.

No, they aren't. Gottlieb for PSP is a port of the Wii version, not PS2; they have three more tables than the original PS2/Xbox/GC release. Williams has two more tables than the PS2 release, again same as the Wii verison but three less than the PS360 versions, which have the most tables. (Sony banned PS2/PS1 straight ports, not Wii/PSP dual-releases. They did down-port some PSP games to PS2 some time after their original PSP releases, but that went the other way.)

Castlevania: Rondo of Blood and Symphony of the Night were ports of the previous titles. It was pretty much a mixed bag of what you got with the ports to the PSP.

No, Rondo of Blood is a 2.5d remake of RoB, compiled with the original RoB and a new version of SotN that adds a new version of playable Maria. Lots of new content there.

[Team Andromeda]

From when on? SOJ obviously had a lot of control for a long time, over what games were being made, etc... like, forcing Sonic X-Treme to make major unnecessary changes to the project that doomed it, cancelling Eternal Champions 3, etc. That doesn't sound like "total control over what we release" to me; Japan had the ultimate power of the purse

That's the myth that's been spread by some on this board too. The fact of the matter is SEGA America would pick and sign up what games they thought would or not work in their market and pay SEGA Japan for the rights; for sure SOJ would have games it really wanted to bring to the west , but it would need SEGA America to agree to it . Sonic X-Tream needed to be changed and needed action taken, having a team working on up to 2 different engines and on 3 different platforms is a complete mess from start to finish and as SONIC was a SOJ IP they would be calling the shots now and again on that title , but SEGA America made massive changes to the look and style of Sonic which SOJ went with (but hardly anyone ever talks that up ). As for EC 3 SOJ never cancled it , they just wanted SEGA West to promote VF 2 more in Arcades and home

You can find a lot of 2D PS1 titles near launch, including Sony's own NFL Gameday

That isn't a 2D game - Its uses 3D polygons as well . SONY America were anti 2D games in terms of art and where the game used no polygons at all has to SONY America that didn't show off the system and in SONY America eyes 'if it wasn't 3D it wasn't a game'

[bultje112]

Yeah, DC sales weren't that great. Look at this for example... not many DC games show up, for sure. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...postcount=1192

wtf kind of source is that.

[Da_Shocker]

So let me get this straight, A Black Falcon you'd prefer to buy Metal Slug 3 and MS 4 and 5 on the Xbox rather than the compilation on the PS2?

[Da_Shocker]

That's the myth that's been spread by some on this board too. The fact of the matter is SEGA America would pick and sign up what games they thought would or not work in their market and pay SEGA Japan for the rights; for sure SOJ would have games it really wanted to bring to the west , but it would need SEGA America to agree to it . Sonic X-Tream needed to be changed and needed action taken, having a team working on up to 2 different engines and on 3 different platforms is a complete mess from start to finish and as SONIC was a SOJ IP they would be calling the shots now and again on that title , but SEGA America made massive changes to the look and style of Sonic which SOJ went with (but hardly anyone ever talks that up ). As for EC 3 SOJ never cancled it , they just wanted SEGA West to promote VF 2 more in Arcades and home



That isn't a 2D game - Its uses 3D polygons as well . SONY America were anti 2D games in terms of art and where the game used no polygons at all has to SONY America that didn't show off the system and in SONY America eyes 'if it wasn't 3D it wasn't a game'

MK3 certainly did a great job at showing off the 3D power of the PSx as did Rayman, Street Fighter: The Movie, Discworld, WWF: Arcade game, Worms and Myst. To be so anti 2D SCEA sure did allow a shit ton of 2D games out there in year one.