N64/PS1/Saturn/DC sales - US NPD

[gamevet]

You're the one having multiple people object to your ridiculous assertions in this thread, not me.

Where was that?

@gamevet I guess showing off the numerous 2D games that the PSx doesn't mean jack shit lol.

thank you for making sense in this topic. you are one of the few.

gamevet has made some extremely good points. I can't believe some of you guys are still stuck in a 97 timewarp. And someone mentioned translating Sakura Wars over here for the Saturn. And Working Designs was done with Sega. After Vic pulled off that shit with the DC he showed his true colors.

so? that doesn't change the fact that working designs never even made a dent into western sales with their games. they are typical hardcore vidoegame mark bullshit hypes and ireland was as much a mark. he fit shoes way too big for himself and he got trashed also by sony and good riddance I say. ego's we don't need.

Uh, in the real world, almost every rule has exceptions. Is it really too hard for you to understand that Sony's anti-2d bias had some exceptions as well? That there were some exceptions does not mean that there wasn't still a strong bias!

No they don't. If your company has an anti-drug rule, you'd get fired for failing a drug test.

I guess you've never played them, then, or you'd know that you don't really need to spend much of any time in the 3d thing at all. You can access the games all from the pause screen too.

Oh yeah, I like to make things up, even though I own several of the Namco collection discs for the Playstation. Why did you even bother to mention the stupid 3D museum in the first place?

We don't know which one is responsible for any one case, no. But the Sony statements are there, and the paucity of 2d games is there, versus other regions, or versus even some other platforms that generation (as a percentage of the total number of titles I mean). There's enough there to pretty confidently say that it's quite likely that in some cases companies just didn't try to localize their 2d games here (particularly titles only released in Japan), but in other cases, Sony's bias, or restrictions, warded them off from trying, or blocked them from releasing things perhaps even. All of the details will probably never be known, because that stuff generally isn't public, but there is enough there to prove that it happened, at least, and that's enough.

The early lineup of software for the Playstation doesn't support that notion.

Uh, both of those are proof for the PS2-era opposition to 2d, not the PS1-era. I mean, we have no proof that SNK ever tried to localize the first Metal Slug, so of course I couldn't blame Sony for banning it, and WD was allowed to release solo 2d PS1 games, though not the first Arc the Lad, because that was in the Stolar era and he didn't want the system to have many RPGs. But apart from Stolar and Arc the Lad, Working Designs's main problems with Sony were in the PS2 era, not the PS1.

Again, the lineup of Playstation games proves otherwise.

The primary proof that PS1-era Sony was biased against 2d is in the statements Sony itself made that "only 3d games are real games" and such. Those prove it, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that Sony of America (SCEA) was biased against 2d. And of course that bias bled over into game localizations.

Nope! You had Vic Ireland and SNK saying such, but the north American software released in the 1st couple of years proves otherwise.

That is not true; he had wanted to release the first Arc the Lad as a standalone game, but Stolar didn't allow it. I think that was mentioned in one of the quotes of his you linked. I would guess that he only did Arc the Lad as a collection because that's the only way he could get it actually released, and he obviously really wanted to release it here. It clearly was not his first choice of how to release the series in the US.

And you don't think that maybe the attitude of Ireland might have had something to do with that? His company seems to be the only one that was required to do such a thing. Atlus didn't run into those kind of roadblocks, when porting over the dated SNES version of Ogre Battle to the Playstation. You're giving Ireland too much credit, and Sony too little here.

As for 2d, Sony's own statements prove that from 1995, Sony of America didn't like 2d games. The large number of 2d games localized in Europe but not the US, on both PS1 and PS2, provide some hints as to Sony of America's biases as well. SNK and WD's statements from the PS2 era prove that Sony was biased against "old-looking" 2d, and Sony's own statements corroborate that. The proof that Sony had an anti-2d bias, and that this affected game localization choices on both the PS1 and PS2, is incontrovertible.

It wasn't Sony's own statement though. This is where you are confusing facts with anecdotal evidence provided by a very questionable Vic Ireland, and an SNK representative. The software lineup before FFVII doesn't agree with your assessment.

[MrSega]

Thanks for the link; That article corrects one thing I said -- they didn't show the better version to the execs at all, weren't able to. But where did you hear that he'd quit by E3 '96? I don't think that that's true...

You're welcome. As for the thing with Chris Senn, my bad. I forgot to re-read his interview.

Him,Coffin and Wallace were the only 3 left for STI which was pretty much history by 1996.

[A Black Falcon]

You're welcome. As for the thing with Chris Senn, my bad. I forgot to re-read his interview.

Him,Coffin and Wallace were the only 3 left for STI which was pretty much history by 1996.

That's not true, I know we've heard about how for a while Senn and Alon were working on the game alone... and wouldn't Coffin's illness have happened a bit later in the year? Do you have any proof that it was that early?

And regardless, STI existed until 1997. Remember that some STI people were working on Die Hard Arcade, and that game didn't release on Saturn until early '97. By early '97 STI was dead, not before that.

[A Black Falcon]

Where was that?

So what, you have blinders and can only read posts that agree with you? Have you tried reading Barone and Team Andromeda's posts?

No they don't. If your company has an anti-drug rule, you'd get fired for failing a drug test.

I have always been quite clear: Sony did not have an absolute ban on 2d games. They had restrictions on 2d games, not a ban. There's a difference between the two. They allowed 2d games... but only so many, and they STRONGLY preferred for them to be in collections, unless they were from a publisher who could "convince" Sony to allow them to release 2d stuff, such as Capcom, Konami, or, on the PS1, Working Designs.

Oh yeah, I like to make things up, even though I own several of the Namco collection discs for the Playstation. Why did you even bother to mention the stupid 3D museum in the first place?

Because it shows how those are not entirely 2d games. I'm sure Sony was happy that those 3d museums were in the games. "Only 3d games are real games" and all that, after all. That was Sony of America's stated attitude towards 2d games from 1995 on.

The early lineup of software for the Playstation doesn't support that notion.

Again, the lineup of Playstation games proves otherwise.

Actually, the library does the opposite. Please go back and read Barone's list, and know that the actual complete list of such times would be multiple times longer, surely. We got a few 2d games here and there, but the other regions got many, many more. Sony of America's 2d bias was the most important reason why we got so many less 2d games than other regions.

Nope! You had Vic Ireland and SNK saying such, but the north American software released in the 1st couple of years proves otherwise.

Nope! Sony said it itself, from 1995 on. Vic Ireland and SNK only started complaining many years later. Please go back and read some of Team Andromeda's posts which explain more.

And you don't think that maybe the attitude of Ireland might have had something to do with that? His company seems to be the only one that was required to do such a thing. Atlus didn't run into those kind of roadblocks, when porting over the dated SNES version of Ogre Battle to the Playstation. You're giving Ireland too much credit, and Sony too little here.

You really need to deal with that unfounded hatred for Vic Ireland, because it seems to be causing you to ignore everything else, or something... and yes, of course everyone ran into roadblocks. Other companies just weren't as open to the press about it as Vic Ireland was; he's always been very open to the fans, quite unlike most company heads. I'm sure Atlus had problems with Sony, given the kinds of games they were localizing, but they did not talk about them publicly.

Regardless, we have statements from Sony about their dislike of 2d, so fortunately there are enough sources for this that your "Sony actually was fine with 2d" argument is about as valid and proven as if I said "The N64 actually outsold the PS1 worldwide", or something. And it's as easy to prove wrong, too, with facts that you have already seen and refused to pay attention to.

It wasn't Sony's own statement though. This is where you are confusing facts with anecdotal evidence provided by a very questionable Vic Ireland, and an SNK representative. The software lineup before FFVII doesn't agree with your assessment.

I don't have any idea why you think that we didn't know about this "Sony dislikes 2d" thing until Vic started complaining it in like 2001-2002 or something, but that's absolutely ludicrously crazy. Were you not around in the PS1 era or somthing? It was VERY clear from 1995 on that Sony of America disliked 2d games! They made that blatantly obvious: We think "real games" have polygons in them.

[MrSega]

That's not true, I know we've heard about how for a while Senn and Alon were working on the game alone... and wouldn't Coffin's illness have happened a bit later in the year? Do you have any proof that it was that early?

And regardless, STI existed until 1997. Remember that some STI people were working on Die Hard Arcade, and that game didn't release on Saturn until early '97. By early '97 STI was dead, not before that.

In the interview, Wallis states that by the summer of '96 that Coffin was the only programmer left on the project. That he litterally went beyond the call of duty to finish the game by moving into the office and that Alon was handling the PC version but quit after Naka denied the request to use the Nights engine. He also said that Alon was pissed off over creative control and had quit SEGA completely.

Wallis confessed that he was the one that ordered the project canned. Coffin was completely drained. He begged Wallis to pull the plug in September. Porting 3D Blast to Saturn was Stolar's idea. Fact: Stolar once admitted in a G4 interview that he believed Saturn was a console that should have never been made. That it was just too hard to work with. And people still defend this asshole.

As for STI, it pretty much had disbanded by then. SEGA just merged what was left of it into Sega of America.

There was one final ace in the hole left:

Sonic Saturn.

http://sonic-cult.org/dispart.php?ca...ubid=1&artid=1

Morewic wanted no part in Xtreme, he felt personally that its trouble that it wasn't developed on the ground up for Saturn. But his project was, and it shows. Trouble is, STI didn't want to be involved with. It. So he was forced to can it.

Tragic. Because this could have SAVED the Saturn.

[Da_Shocker]

However, most of the games they were pushing the most early on were 3d, not 2d. 3d was what peop[le wanted, and most of those 2d games were much lower in prominence (Console Myst wasn't that big of a deal, for instance, compared to the PC game... though a CG-rendered game like that isn't something all people would call "2d" even if it really is.). Worms also was pretty obscure, and Discworld. Rayman was a hit, but it was a clearly "next-gen" 2d game, that could not have been done on SNES or Genesis. And it released before the first wave of popular 3d platformers; this is also quite important.

No shit Sherlock everybody knew that every single company was promoting 3D heavily back then. But again you said that Sony was anti-2D which simply isn't true. I'm not sure why you're not getting what me and gamevet isn't getting at. And you know damn well not every game that should get released here get's released here. I mean look at Pulseman, Alien Solider and Mega Man: Willy Wars. They were all passed for domestic release from SoA. I don't could that Sega Channel crap. SoA also passed on Shin Shinobi Den for the Saturn. Every single one of these companies have games that they will release and then that they will pass on.

[A Black Falcon]

No shit Sherlock everybody knew that every single company was promoting 3D heavily back then. But again you said that Sony was anti-2D which simply isn't true. I'm not sure why you're not getting what me and gamevet isn't getting at. And you know damn well not every game that should get released here get's released here. I mean look at Pulseman, Alien Solider and Mega Man: Willy Wars. They were all passed for domestic release from SoA. I don't could that Sega Channel crap. SoA also passed on Shin Shinobi Den for the Saturn. Every single one of these companies have games that they will release and then that they will pass on.

Sony of America said it was anti-2d from the beginning of their time as a first party, and acted on that principle through their first two generations. That is the proven truth.

As for the rest of that, sure, that happens. But it was not simply 'games not getting localized', it was the first party putting up roadblocks to make it more difficult.

Finally, games like Shinobi Legions weren't all passed on; sometimes Sega just outsourced first-party titles. This happened on the Genesis too -- think of how Data East published OutRunners, Vic Tokai published Columns III, etc. It doesn't always mean that Sega didn't think the games would sell. This issue was discussed in some of the interviews on this site.

[Barone]

Have you tried reading Barone and Team Andromeda's posts?

Also:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/show...ars-of-the-PS1
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103765


PS1 2D games released in US:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/show...ystation-Games


PS1 2D games (tons of JP-only missing but...):
http://opcfg.kontek.net/archive/2dpsx.html

[A Black Falcon]

Also:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/show...ars-of-the-PS1
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103765

Great links. Oh man, that rumor that Capcom had to threaten to make RE2 Saturn-exclusive in order to force SCEA to allow them to release Mega Man 8 for PS1...

(I wish it'd happened! )

[MrSega]

Great links. Oh man, that rumor that Capcom had to threaten to make RE2 Saturn-exclusive in order to force SCEA to allow them to release Mega Man 8 for PS1...

(I wish it'd happened! )

Tell me about it. SCEA was so desperate to get Mega Man 8 that they had to advetise it had a stupid color Instruction Manual. Too bad its inferior to the Saturn version.

[gamevet]

PS1 2D games released in US:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/show...ystation-Games

I've already posted that list and edited out games like View Point. I even showed the same source.

Al


PS1 2D games (tons of JP-only missing but...):
http://opcfg.kontek.net/archive/2dpsx.html

Did you actually read that list?

Philosoma is not a 2D shooter. Trim the games off of that list, that aren't 2D, and it gets a bit shorter.


I've bolded the titles I don't think made it to North America, or I'm not sure about.

SHOOTERS:
Gradius Deluxe Pack
Salamander Deluxe Pack Plus
Gradius Gaiden
Gokujyo Parodius Da! Deluxe Pack
Jikkyu Oshaberi Parodius
Sexy Parodius
Detana Twinbee Yahho-! Deluxe Pack
Twinbee Taisen Pazurudama
Arcade Gears: Image Fight & X-Multiply
The Raiden Project
Raiden DX
Philosoma
Darius Gaiden
G Darius
Zanac X Zanac
Einhander
Raystorm
Raycrisis: Series Termination
ThunderForce V Perfect System
R-Types
R-Type Delta
Strikers 1945
Strikers 1945 II
The Shooting/Space Shot
Gekioh Shienryu/Gekioh: Shooting King
Gunbird/Mobile Light Force
Fantastic Night Dreams: Cotton Original
In The Hunt
Donpachi
DoDonpachi
Gaia Seed
Sol Divide
Soukyugerentai/Terra Diver
Stahlfeder
Time Bokan
Toaplan Shooting Battle 1
Two-Tenkaku
Vacuum Kids
Viewpoint
X2
Xevious 3D/G+
Sonic Wings Special
Night Raid
Dezaemon Kids
Dezaemon Plus

PLATFORMERS:

Akumajuo Dracula X: Nocturne In The Moonlight/Castlevania: Symphony Of The Night
Castlevania Chronicle: Akumajuo Dracula/Castlevania Chronicles
Ganbare Goemon Uchukaizoku Akogingu
Ganbare Goemon: Ooedo Daikaiten
Strider Hiryu 1 & 2/Strider 2
Rockman Complete Works: Rockman
Rockman Complete Works: Rockman 2: Dr. Wily no Nazo (The Enigma of Dr. Wily)
Rockman Complete Works: Rockman 3: Dr. Wily no Saigou!? (Dr. Wily's Time To Die!?)
Rockman Complete Works: Rockman 4: Atanaru no Yabou!! (A New Evil Ambition!!)
Rockman Complete Works: Rockman 5: Blues no Wana!? (Blues' Trap!?)
Rockman Complete Works: Rockman 6: Shijou Saidai no Tatakai!! (The Biggest Battle in History!!)
Rockman X3
Rockman X4/Mega Man X4
Rockman X5/Mega Man X5
Rockman X6/Mega Man X6
Rockman 8/Mega Man 8
Silhouette Mirage
The Adventures of Lomax
Punky Skunk
Pinobee
Gex
Pandemonium!
Pandemonium! 2
I Am Tomba!/Tomba!
Tomba 2: The Evil Swine Return
Rayman
Klonoa: Door To Phantomile
Yoyo's Puzzle Park/Gussun Paradise
Skeleton Warriors
Skullmonkeys
Oddworld: Abe's Oddyssey
Oddworld: Abe's Exoddus
Herc's Adventures
Disney's Hercules
Disney's Tarzan

RPG/STRATEGY/SIM:

Valkyrie Profile
Dragon Warrior VII
Beyond the Beyond
Suikoden
Suikoden II
Vandal Hearts
Vandal Hearts II
Breath of Fire III
Final Fantasy Origins
Final Fantasy Anthology
Final Fantasy Chronicles
Final Fantasy Tactics
Legend of Mana
SaGa Frontier
Kartia
Tales of Destiny
Tactics Ogre
Ogre Battle Limited Edition
Battle Hunter
Arc The Lad 1/Arc The Lad Collection Disc 1
Arc The Lad 2/Arc The Lad Collection Disc 2
Arc The Lad 3/Arc The Lad Collection Disc 3
Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete
Lunar 2: Eternal Blue
Tokimeki Memorial: Forever With You
Worms
Worms Armageddon
Worms World Party
Command & Conquer
Baldies
Magic: The Gathering - Battlemage

ARCADE/CONSOLE COMPILATIONS:

Konami Arcade Classics
Capcom Generation Volume 1
Capcom Generation Volume 2
Capcom Generation Volume 3
Capcom Generation Volume 4
Capcom Generation Volume 5/Street Fighter Collection 2
Namco Museum Volume 1
Namco Museum Volume 2
Namco Museum Volume 3
Namco Museum Volume 4
Namco Museum Volume 5
Namco Museum Encore
Bubble Bobble Also Featuring Rainbow Islands
William’s Arcade’s Greatest Hits
William’s Arcade’s Greatest Hits Volume 2
Midway Presents The Atari Collection Volume 1
Midway Presents The Atari Collection Volume 2
Arcade Party Pak
Atari Anniversary Collection
Street Fighter Collection
Irem Arcade Classics
Nichibutsu Arcade Classics
Space Invaders Collection
Superlite 3-In-1 Arcade Classics
Buster Bros. Collection
Konami Antiques MSX Collection Volume 1
Konami Antiques MSX Collection Volume 2
Konami Antiques MSX Collection Volume 3
Activision Classics
Intellivision Classics
Sunsoft Memorial Volume 1
Sunsoft Memorial Volume 2
Sunsoft Memorial Volume 3
Sunsoft Memorial Volume 4
Sunsoft Memorial Volume 5

PUZZLE:

Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo
The Next Tetris
Mr. Driller
Puzznic
Cleopatra Fortune
Puzzle Bobble 2/Bust-A-Move 2 Arcade Edition
Puzzle Bobble 3 DX/Bust-A-Move '99/Bust-a-Move 3 DX
Puzzle Bobble 4/Bust-A-Move 4
Hebereke's Popoitto/Hebereke Station Popoitto
Puchi Carat
Pop'n Pop
Builder's Block/Landmaker
Sorcerer's Maze/Prism Land
Buttsubushi
Worms Pinball
One Piece Mansion

FIGHTING:

Street Fighter Zero/Street Fighter Alpha
Street Fighter Zero 2/Street Fighter Alpha 2
Street Fighter Zero 3/Street Fighter Alpha 3
Street Fighter II Movie
Street Fighter: The Movie
DarkStalkers
DarkStalkers 3
Marvel Super Heroes
Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter
Marvel vs. Capcom
X-Men vs. Street Fighter
X-Men: Children of the Atom
Pocket Fighter
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
King of Fighters '95
King of Fighters '96
King of Fighters '97
King of Fighters '98
King of Fighters '99
Real Bout Fatal Fury Special Dominated Mind
Samurai Shodown 3
Art of Fighting 3
Guilty Gear
Makeruna Makendo 2
Tatsunoko Fight
Gouketuji Ichizoku 2: Chottodake Saikyou Densetsu/Power Instinct 2
Asuka 120% Excellent Burning Fest
Asuka 120% Special Burning Fest
Asuka 120% Burning Fest Final
Mortal Kombat II
Mortal Kombat 3
Mortal Kombat Trilogy
Mortal Kombat Mythologies: Sub-Zero

It looks like over 75% of those made it here, and over 90% of the RPGs.

You can't expect a title like Sexy Parodius to be something you can sell in North America and more than likely was never pursued to be published here.

[A Black Falcon]

Vandal Hearts, Vandal Hearts 2, Kartia, Final Fantasy Tactics, and Dragon Warrior VII are NOT 2d games. They are 3d games. Sure, the characters are sprites, but they are in 3d polygonal worlds. That is in no way 2d.

And in that platformers category, Pinobee, Pandemonium!, Pandemonium 2, Tarzan, Hercules, Tomba!, Tomba 2, and maybe more are polygonal 2.5d games. That's not 2d either, not graphically.

And yeah, a bunch of those shmups are 2.5d polygonal games too, including PhiloSoma, RayStorm, RayCrisis, Einhander, G-Darius, R-Type Delta, Soukyugurentai, Xevious 3D, Shooter: Space Shot, and probably some more.

And anyway, that list means nothing except proof that yes, Sony was biased against 2d. Note how short the US list is, and the giant mountain of evidence proving that Sony was biased against 2d and was very reluctant to approve many 2d games. Also note that that list there is not a complete list. It's not anywhere remotely near being one. There are plenty of Japan-only 2d games for the Playstation. Most of them aren't on that list. That list there doesn't even have (using the US titles for these JP-only PS1 games) The Last Blade, Samurai Shodown 1, Samurai Shodown 2, Samurai Shodown 4, Metal Slug, or Samurai Shodown RPG on it, much less stuff from obscure Japanese developers...

[gamevet]

Vandal Hearts, Vandal Hearts 2, Kartia, Final Fantasy Tactics, and Dragon Warrior VII are NOT 2d games. They are 3d games. Sure, the characters are sprites, but they are in 3d polygonal worlds. That is in no way 2d.

And in that platformers category, Pinobee, Pandemonium!, Pandemonium 2, Tarzan, Hercules, Tomba!, Tomba 2, and maybe more are polygonal 2.5d games. That's not 2d either, not graphically.

And yeah, a bunch of those shmups are 2.5d polygonal games too, including PhiloSoma, RayStorm, RayCrisis, Einhander, G-Darius, R-Type Delta, Soukyugurentai, Xevious 3D, Shooter: Space Shot, and probably some more.

That was a list/source that Barone posted. I just copied and pasted it.

Yes, I've already noted that the list becomes shorter once you start trimming out those titles that aren't really 2D.

And anyway, that list means nothing except proof that yes, Sony was biased against 2d. Note how short the US list is, and the giant mountain of evidence proving that Sony was biased against 2d and was very reluctant to approve many 2d games. Also note that that list there is not a complete list. It's not anywhere remotely near being one. There are plenty of Japan-only 2d games for the Playstation. Most of them aren't on that list. That list there doesn't even have (using the US titles for these JP-only PS1 games) The Last Blade, Samurai Shodown 1, Samurai Shodown 2, Samurai Shodown 4, Metal Slug, or Samurai Shodown RPG on it, much less stuff from obscure Japanese developers...

You can make a list of Super Famicom and Saturn titles left in Japan and get similar or worse results.

There's nothing clear about those lists that would justify them as proof.

Because it shows how those are not entirely 2d games. I'm sure Sony was happy that those 3d museums were in the games. "Only 3d games are real games" and all that, after all. That was Sony of America's stated attitude towards 2d games from 1995 on.

Yeah, everyone that bought the Namco Museum games did so, because of those neat 3D museums.

You really need to deal with that unfounded hatred for Vic Ireland, because it seems to be causing you to ignore everything else, or something... and yes, of course everyone ran into roadblocks. Other companies just weren't as open to the press about it as Vic Ireland was; he's always been very open to the fans, quite unlike most company heads. I'm sure Atlus had problems with Sony, given the kinds of games they were localizing, but they did not talk about them publicly.

I used to love WD, with the cool titles they translated to the Sega CD and Saturn, but years later I got tired of the prima-donna act that Ireland had. He accused Sony of being anti-2d, yet one of the first titles he translated for the Playstation was Alundra. And where does he get off thinking Sega of America should pay for his E3 booth? That should tell you just how irrational Ireland was.

Regardless, we have statements from Sony about their dislike of 2d, so fortunately there are enough sources for this that your "Sony actually was fine with 2d" argument is about as valid and proven as if I said "The N64 actually outsold the PS1 worldwide", or something. And it's as easy to prove wrong, too, with facts that you have already seen and refused to pay attention to.

The long list of 2D title for the North American Playstation is all the proof I need. Especially when the 1st RPG I had bought for my system was Beyond the Beyond, which is very much 2D, even with the scaling sprites.

I don't have any idea why you think that we didn't know about this "Sony dislikes 2d" thing until Vic started complaining it in like 2001-2002 or something, but that's absolutely ludicrously crazy. Were you not around in the PS1 era or somthing? It was VERY clear from 1995 on that Sony of America disliked 2d games! They made that blatantly obvious: We think "real games" have polygons in them.

I'm 45 years old. I wasn't playing consoles during the 32-bit era with mommy and daddy's money. I'd bought the Saturn at launch in May of 1995. I'd bought the Playstation early on in 1996. And I'd bought the N64 at launch from EB games with Mario 64.

The 1st year lineup of games for the Playstation had a ton of 2D titles. I'll take physical evidence over anecdotal every day of the week and so will the United States court system.

[A Black Falcon]

That was a list/source that Barone posted. I just copied and pasted it.

Yes, I've already noted that the list becomes shorter once you start trimming out those titles that aren't really 2D.

Indeed it does.

You can make a list of Super Famicom and Saturn titles left in Japan and get similar or worse results.

There's nothing clear about those lists that would justify them as proof.

It's not the lists that are the proof. It's the statements from game companies and Sony itself that are the proof. Lists of releases can support the point (and they do!), but cannot be absolute proof either way; statements can be.

Also, I think everyone would agree that Nintendo's policy on localizations has often been extremely, extremely bad. That doesn't excuse Sony for being just as bad. Nintendo's worst effects are in all of the first-party titles they have refused to localize over the years, Sony's in third-party titles they blocked from release or made it hard for third parties to release, but the overall results are the same.

[Da_Shocker]

Great links. Oh man, that rumor that Capcom had to threaten to make RE2 Saturn-exclusive in order to force SCEA to allow them to release Mega Man 8 for PS1...

(I wish it'd happened! )

Just a bunch of BS on Capcom's port as they didn't even bother to port it to the Saturn.