N64/PS1/Saturn/DC sales - US NPD

[Vector2013]

Damn this is getting good.

[j_factor]

Why is it "more appropriate" to get a collection of games than a single game?

Because PS2 is not on the same level as Neo Geo. PS2 is capable of a collection of Neo Geo games (as we can see). SCEA had allowed Metal Slug X on the PSX, and Metal Slug 3 is not that different-looking from X. Perhaps they saw it as a PS1-quality game.

Metal Slug 3 and Samurai Shodown V were not old games when ported to the PS2 and Xbox; MS3 had only released in arcades a couple of years earlier, and SSV was quite recent. It shouldn't matter that it was running on older hardware, but sadly, it did to SCEA.

So in short, you agree -- it's not because they were 2d.

SCEA explicitly blocked both of these games from US release:

Yeah, I know. I just said as much.

The same goes for KOF NeoWave and SNK vs. Capcom: SVCCHAOS, and those were on even newer arcade hardware (Atomiswave).

SVC Chaos was a Neo Geo game. I'm not sure what's up with Neowave, though. Guilty Gear Isuka was an Atomiswave game, and SCEA allowed that one.

I already did a bunch of links about the awful stuff SCEA did on the last page I believe, but here are even more of them, since you people don't believe the mountains of evidence of SCEA's misbehavior.

I don't care about their "misbehavior".

Well, ok, I do, but not in this thread. I was only ever replying on the subject of 2d games. Not general shenanigans on the part of Sony.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103765 - SCEA didn't approve PS2 Viewtiful Joe until after the game sold well on Gamecube; before that they said no.

That's BS. Viewtiful Joe for PS2 came out in North America before it came out anywhere else. SCEA was in no position to approve or disapprove of Viewtiful Joe anytime earlier, because "before that" the game was not being made for PS2. And the Gamecube version did not meet sales expectations, which was the whole reason Capcom ported it to PS2 after the fact, after having announced it as a Gamecube exclusive originally.

Both of the above links also mention that SCEA blocked the 3d game "Gregory Horror Show" from a US release, because they didn't like the content or something. How nice. The NeoGAF thread also mentions that a PS2 game called "OZ" was also blocked from US release, for unspecified reasons, like Gregory Horror Show and Shadow Tower: Abyss. More on Oz here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...1&postcount=26

This only supports my point. SCEA were restrictive, but they were not specifically targeting 2d games.

The post also says that SCEA forced Ys VI (for PS2) to have the 2d sprite main character be replaced with a polygonal model, because they wouldn't approve the game otherwise -- proven in developer interviews.

Supposed "developer interviews" are not cited. And anyway, that's in the Japanese version as well. A number of enhancements were made to the game when it was ported to PS2 (from the original PC version). Nothing to do with SCEA.

More on Mega Man 8/X4 US here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...1&postcount=42 This time the rumor is that Capcom of Japan had to step in and threaten to not release Resident Evil here, in order to force Sony to allow them to release MM8 and MMX4. Quite similar to the other version of the rumor, which says that Capcom threatened to make RE2 Saturn-exclusive in order to force them to let them release MM8. It would actually make even more sense with RE1 than RE2, since RE1 Saturn released in early 1997, and MM8 was also an early '97 release in the US.

I don't know how these games got lumped together. Only X4 was stated to have any issues in the press at the time. In 1997, the word was that Mega Man 8 was originally Saturn-exclusive, but Sony pressured Capcom to bring it to Playstation. As a concession to Saturn fans, Capcom added the two bonus boss fights. X4 and 8 came out the same year, yes, but many months apart. They were not submitted to Sony at the same time.

There were stories that X4 -- not 8 -- was initially denied by Sony. But a Capcom rep specifically said it was not because the game is 2d.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...2&postcount=55 - Mention of a Sony "performance analyzer" -- the more system power your game uses, the better it is, right?

Because a game absolutely has to have z-space in order to tax the system, right? Even on the original Playstation?

If that's the standard, 2d games would be rolling right through on the PSX!

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/631516-wii-u/64093958 - And here's someone mentioning how Sony's double standards let Sega do Japanese-only voices for Yakuza 2, but never would allow such a thing for releases from smaller studios.

You're just linking random posts on GameFAQs now? That's not evidence of anything.

Here's a list of confirmed and rumored SCEA blocks: http://www.gamecritics.com/forums/pr...p?t=7049&pp=40 It's a mixture of 2d and 3d games, but the point that SCEA were really, really restrictive for pointless reasons should be clear.

Just like I said: It's not about whether or not the game is 2d.

Well, they allowed plenty of terrible-looking 3d games on the PS2 early in its life...

Well, they couldn't just not release any games at all.

No it isn't, it's a graphically-enhanced port. And the Saturn version DID see a US release, so it seems plausible that SCEA could be the reason why we didn't see the PS1 release.

The graphical enhancements are pretty minimal. And yes, I think it's likely that SCEA is the reason for that one. But, point is, it's not just that it's 2d.

Sony blocked games for specious reasons. That is proven. Nintendo didn't. This we also know. There's a big difference there.

Nintendo blocked games for specious reasons too. Maybe not the same specious reasons. Nintendo blocked Squashed for NES because they thought it looked too similar to Mario 3. Nintendo also had a costly minimum production run for a game to get released, which effectively blocked some games. The N64 version of 40 Winks never came out for that reason.

What point, that Nintendo of America never had stupid rules like SCEA? Well, that is true then.

I'm never quite sure if you're trolling when you post retarded replies like this.

A much smaller proportion of the N64 library in Japan is 2d too; it's not like they got piles of 2d games we didn't.

So Nintendo of Japan was anti-2d as well.

Well sure, but I never said that they had that.

You've implied it, by linking to posts that said it.

[Furnessly]

I admit that I don't know much regarding what goes off at SCEA (I know a bit more regarding SCEE and I know people are complaining regarding some games on the PS3 and why they aren't released e.g. Counter-Strike) but as a guess on these confirmed blocks on the PS2 era, could it be an issue of quality control?

I mean usually there is a logical common sense answer regarding some games. After all some of these could have been turned down since there weren't very good, got low review scores, seen as having low content (like most arcade versions unless they have extra modes to justify the content) or have bugs in the game failing QA (Europe never got Smashing Drive despite the original arcade game was made in Spain and I heard there is a bug regarding one of the time trial stages having too short of a time to be completed without cheating on the console releases). I heard that Sony QA takes a long time especially on 3rd party releases and especially at the SCEE side so a couple of these blocks might have been permimently stuck at QA. As for Puyo Puyo Fever, I'm sure that got bad reviews at the time for low content and you would have to remember why it wasn't also released on the PSP but it could be other issues, Nintendo could have made it an exclusive in the US (not sure whether the Xbox version was released in the US), Sega probably thought that releasing it on the PS2 or the other consoles in the US wouldn't sell well to make a profit.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

How did this thread switch from being about the Saturn's flat line at E3 97 to Sony being Anti-2D?

[gamevet]

How did this thread switch from being about the Saturn's flat line at E3 97 to Sony being Anti-2D?

It started when people were saying that Stolar had an anti 2D/RPG policy while he was at Sony and Sega. Then it was stated that those policies continued at SCEA after he had left.

Some of us look at the software being released, as proof that the policy wasn't very strict.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

It started when people were saying that Stolar had an anti 2D/RPG policy while he was at Sony and Sega. Then it was stated that those policies continued at SCEA after he had left.

Some of us look at the software being released, as proof that the policy wasn't very strict.

Well, it does seem that the only RPGs that got released after he came on board were the 3D ones made by Sega, and not all of them at that. Yeah MKR got released, but Working Designs got the ok to do that back around 95/96.

[gamevet]

Well, it does seem that the only RPGs that got released after he came on board were the 3D ones made by Sega, and not all of them at that. Yeah MKR got released, but Working Designs got the ok to do that back around 95/96.

Shining the Holy Ark in June of 97. The only 2D RPG they could have released would have been Princess Crown, but that didn't come out in Japan until the end of 97.

You also had the 2D Marvel Super Heroes in August of 97.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Shining The Holy Ark fits under the "3D Ones made by Sega" category.

[gamevet]

Shining The Holy Ark fits under the "3D Ones made by Sega" category.

Yeah, I was just listing it. That's 4 RPGs (3 that he should get credit for) that were released within a little over a year. I really can't think of many 2D RPGs that were left in Japan for the Saturn, other than the one I'd mentioned above. Maybe Dragon Force 2, but it's not your really 2D once you're in battle.

[A Black Falcon]

I admit that I don't know much regarding what goes off at SCEA (I know a bit more regarding SCEE and I know people are complaining regarding some games on the PS3 and why they aren't released e.g. Counter-Strike) but as a guess on these confirmed blocks on the PS2 era, could it be an issue of quality control?

I mean usually there is a logical common sense answer regarding some games. After all some of these could have been turned down since there weren't very good, got low review scores, seen as having low content (like most arcade versions unless they have extra modes to justify the content) or have bugs in the game failing QA (Europe never got Smashing Drive despite the original arcade game was made in Spain and I heard there is a bug regarding one of the time trial stages having too short of a time to be completed without cheating on the console releases). I heard that Sony QA takes a long time especially on 3rd party releases and especially at the SCEE side so a couple of these blocks might have been permimently stuck at QA.

A few of the games SCEA blocked weren't great, but most are perfectly decent games. SCEA allowed many worse games to release. Looking at that list I posted there, which is from 2004 and is PS2-only so it doesn't include any blocked PS1 games or later PS2 titles (or anything PSP), it's a mixture of things, including "old-looking" 2d games, niche games, and games they probably "didn't think were good enough for release". I said that SCEA was biased against 2d, but always said that they had multiple things they didn't like, and that list fits with that.

Also, many of those games are games that Nintendo and/or Microsoft DID approve. See my notes added to the list here.

CONFIRMED BLOCKS
-Alone in the Dark: The New Nightmare (Infogrames) - Released in the US on PC, PS1, and Dreamcast
-Bomberman Kart (Konami)
-Broken Sword: The Sleeping Dragon (Dreamcatcher) - Released in the US on PC and Xbox
-Charlie's Angels (UbiSoft) - Released in the US on Gamecube
-Circus Maximus (Encore) - Released in the US on Xbox
-Curse: Eye of the Isis (Dreamcatcher)
-Dragon's Lair 3D (UbiSoft) - Released in the US on PC, Gamecube, and Xbox
-Ghost Vibration (Atari)
-Gio Gio's Bizarre Adventure (Capcom)
-Goemon (Working Designs)
-Gregory Horror Show (Capcom)
-Growlanser II: The Sense of Justice (Working Designs)*
-Growlanser III: The Dual Darkness (Working Designs)*
-Kengo II (UbiSoft)
-Metal Slug 3 (SNK NeoGeo) - Released in the US on Xbox
-Outlaw Golf (Simon & Schuster) - Released in the US on Xbox
-Outlaw Volleyball (Simon & Schuster) - Released in the US on Xbox
-Shadow Tower Abyss (Agetec)
-Smashing Drive (Namco) - Released in the US on Xbox, Gamecube, and Game Boy Advance
-SNK Vs Capcom: SVC Chaos (SNK NeoGeo) - Released in the US on Xbox
-Space Channel 5 (Agetec)**
-Space Channel 5 Part 2 (Agetec)**
-Spirits & Spells (Dreamcatcher) - Released in the US on Gamecube
-Syberia (XS Games) - Released in the US on Xbox
-Syberia II (XS Games) - Released in the US on Xbox
-Ys I & II Eternal Story (NEC Interchannel)

RUMORED BLOCKS
-Bomberman Jetters (Majesco) - Released in the US on Gamecube
-Bonk's Adventure (tba)
-DoDonPachi Dai-Oujou (Agetec)
-Everblue (Capcom)
-Glass Rose (Capcom)
-Hyper Street Fighter II Turbo: Anniversary Edition (Capcom)***
-Puyo Pop Fever (Sega) - Released in the US on Gamecube and Nintendo DS
-Psyvariar (tba)
-Samurai Showdown V (SNK NeoGeo) - Released in the US on Xbox

*repackaged into Growlanser Generations
** repackaged into Space Channel 5 Special Edition
*** collected with SFIII: Third Strike and released as Street Fighter Anniversary (for PS2 and Xbox)

(Removed Worms Blast and Killer 7 from the "rumored" list because they did release, added note for Hyper SFII)

Most of those games are perfectly decent games. There are lots of worse released PS2 games. And some are really good games it's tragic we didn't see, such as DoDonPachi, Ys I & II, etc.

As for Puyo Puyo Fever, I'm sure that got bad reviews at the time for low content and you would have to remember why it wasn't also released on the PSP but it could be other issues, Nintendo could have made it an exclusive in the US (not sure whether the Xbox version was released in the US), Sega probably thought that releasing it on the PS2 or the other consoles in the US wouldn't sell well to make a profit.

Actually Sega did not release Puyo Pop Fever in the US; they passed on it. Sega of Europe and Japan released the game on all formats (DC/PS2/Xbox/GC/DS/PSP, on all of those systems in Japan and all except the DC in Europe), but in the US they released it on none. Atlus picked the game up, and released it for GC and DS only. That list there shows that Atlus was probably interested in releasing the PS2 version as well, but Sony said no.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Yeah, I was just listing it. That's 4 RPGs (3 that he should get credit for) that were released within a little over a year. I really can't think of many 2D RPGs that were left in Japan for the Saturn, other than the one I'd mentioned above. Maybe Dragon Force 2, but it's not your really 2D once you're in battle.

There were the Langrisser games, there's the Lunars (Though that's a combination of Stolar and Vic Ireland's temper tantrum), Suikoden, Phantasy Star Collection, Far East of Eden the 4th Apocalypse (or whatever it's called), Symphony of the Night (though more of a platformer with RPG Elements), Shin Megami Tensei Devil Summoner, Shin Megami Tensei Soul Hackers, as well as some PC-FX Ports and Samurai Showdown RPG.

And in 3D we have the obvious Grandia, and Shining Force III Sc. 2 and 3.

Though a few were 1998 releases they still could have filled that void until September of 1999.

[gamevet]

There were the Langrisser games, there's the Lunars (Though that's a combination of Stolar and Vic Ireland's temper tantrum), Suikoden, Phantasy Star Collection, Far East of Eden the 4th Apocalypse (or whatever it's called), Symphony of the Night (though more of a platformer with RPG Elements), Shin Megami Tensei Devil Summoner, Shin Megami Tensei Soul Hackers, as well as some PC-FX Ports and Samurai Showdown RPG.

And in 3D we have the obvious Grandia, and Shining Force III Sc. 2 and 3.

Though a few were 1998 releases they still could have filled that void until September of 1999.

The Saturn was already on life support during the 1st six months of 1997. There's no way anything after 1998 would have been allowed on retail shelves. I cleaned out Best Buy in early 98 (see receipts from an insurance claim below) and made out like a bandit with games selling for $9.50 each.


It would have been cool if Sega had ported the other 2 chapters of Shining Force III, but companies like Konami had already moved on after the 1st couple of months in 1997. I think Ireland was looking for a way out as well.

[Da_Shocker]

There were the Langrisser games, there's the Lunars (Though that's a combination of Stolar and Vic Ireland's temper tantrum), Suikoden, Phantasy Star Collection, Far East of Eden the 4th Apocalypse (or whatever it's called), Symphony of the Night (though more of a platformer with RPG Elements), Shin Megami Tensei Devil Summoner, Shin Megami Tensei Soul Hackers, as well as some PC-FX Ports and Samurai Showdown RPG.

And in 3D we have the obvious Grandia, and Shining Force III Sc. 2 and 3.

Though a few were 1998 releases they still could have filled that void until September of 1999.

I do agree with you there but between that time I simply imported Saturn games and picked up whatever Genessis game that I missed out. Hell I even bought Sakura Wars 2 only to sell it again since I couldn't navigate it for shit.

[gamevet]

I do agree with you there but between that time I simply imported Saturn games and picked up whatever Genessis game that I missed out. Hell I even bought Sakura Wars 2 only to sell it again since I couldn't navigate it for shit.

That's pretty much what I did. I picked up Vampire Savior and Magic Knight Rayearth in December of 98. I was combing the bargain bins at Gamestop, looking for good deals on great games for the Saturn.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

The Saturn was already on life support during the 1st six months of 1997. There's no way anything after 1998 would have been allowed on retail shelves. I cleaned out Best Buy in early 98 (see receipts from an insurance claim below) and made out like a bandit with games selling for $9.50 each.


It would have been cool if Sega had ported the other 2 chapters of Shining Force III, but companies like Konami had already moved on after the 1st couple of months in 1997. I think Ireland was looking for a way out as well.

While that is true, I do think they could have done something with 1997 after the holiday season. It seems like by 1997 they just gave up and the E3 fiasco was the final nail in the coffin. Putting out games throughout 1999 had to have been a better option over nothing for a whole year and a half until the Dreamcast came along. Hell I remember people thinking Sega was dead and not making consoles anymore throughout that period.