N64/PS1/Saturn/DC sales - US NPD

[Chilly Willy]

I'm talking about your average consumer, not the guy that read every issue of Gamefan and EGM.

If you walked into a store after E3 and tried to buy a Saturn, the store clerk would have told them about Stolar's remarks and pointed them to the N64 or PS1 as opposed to a console with no support that's officially dead. Only people taking advantage of the dump in progress would buy a Saturn at that point, but would do so KNOWING it's dead.

[A Black Falcon]

If you walked into a store after E3 and tried to buy a Saturn, the store clerk would have told them about Stolar's remarks and pointed them to the N64 or PS1 as opposed to a console with no support that's officially dead. Only people taking advantage of the dump in progress would buy a Saturn at that point, but would do so KNOWING it's dead.

And if Gamevet again mentions that Sega actually released games for a year after E3 1997, that doesn't matter. The system had been essentially discontinued already, only the seriously hardcore would pay attention to games released on a dead platform, as the Saturn was after Bernie Stolar killed it at E3.

[Team Andromeda]

Sure, 3D was popular, but 2D was still a selling genre... a FEW 2D games didn't do so well, but most fighters were still 2D and did HUGE. All those CAPCOM games for example. A 2D Sonic would have done great... and held off demand for a 3D Sonic until the N64 release and Mario 64.

Even the PS1 had a bunch of 2D games that did gangbusters. That first year or so, 2D was going strong. Look at games like Gex, Rayman, and Tomba! as prime examples. They all later moved to 3D, but started with 2D versions that sold well enough to demand sequels in 3D. Sonic should have done that, too.

Tbh I've always said SEGA should have got Sonic CD an Sonic the Arcade game on 1 disc ready for the Saturn launch in the USA/UK has a stop gap, but a major 2D Sonic game wouldn't have done the Saturn or SEGA any favours . Sonic was made to show off the power of the MD and so with the Saturn people would just have expected Sonic to show off the Saturn 3D . Sonic already sold well in enough in 2D and were all knew Mario was going to 3D and so SEGA would have had to follow or more people would have made fun of SEGA and Saturn 3D .

What should have been made in 2D on the Saturn was SOR - with a 4 player mode and massive sprites and bosses like that seen in Revenge of Death Adder on the system 32 board - only this time on the Saturn and with SOR and with 3 to 4 players That would have been really cool imo

[Team Andromeda]

Whoever thought that was either being incredibly stupid, or was thinking only of Japan and was ignoring the fact that Sonic was their most important franchise overseas. Of course, ignoring that and doing the thing that would help Japan while leaving the rest of the world alone, and thus failing there, was pretty much SOJ's plan that generation, so if that was what they were doing, it wouldn't be surprising.

SOJ was stupid but you can't play the Sonic Team for wanting to do something new and making some many SONIC games in such a short space of time - Having Teams make endless yearly sequels leads to staff leaving, short cuts and not that good of a product (just look at Tomb Raider ) What SEGA should have done is like with Sonic CD just have a seprate team make a Sonic game -that was overseen by the ST .

No, Sega of Japan broke that game (X-Treme) when they required the entire game to be remade using the "bosses" engine, getting rid of all the work that'd gone into the "levels" engine. That was a key reason behind why the game failed to release, because all of that extra work overworked the programmers, and both groups' lead programmers had health issues under the strain of trying to finish the game in 1996, and THAT is why the game was cancelled (it'd have missed 1996).

No the game was a mess to begin with . What was it 1st a 32X game, then a PC game, then a PC and Saturn game - That is complete mess to start with . If the game had been built from the ground up for just one system . I think it could have been a different story .

Oh, and the whole "using the NiGHTS engine but Yuji Naka banned that" debacle also was a result of that bad decision I mentioned above -- they only thought of using that one after having their improved "levels" engine rejected unseen. That wasted more days/weeks of work.

Well to be honest it just shows what a mess the game was in if after some 1 and half years of work you need to bring in a totally brand new engine that you've never used before .

Had the game been allowed to complete under its original plan, it could have been a good game. I don't think it'd have been the equal of Mario 64, certainly -- it was looking more like Bug! -- but I like Bug a lot, so I'm sure I'd have quite enjoyed X-Treme

All if's really but it could have been a good game if it started life out on just a single platform imo. I think Bug is good and its sequel was brilliant - sadly it was ruined with a ridiculous hard difficulty level and lack of save points mid level .

[gamevet]

If you walked into a store after E3 and tried to buy a Saturn, the store clerk would have told them about Stolar's remarks and pointed them to the N64 or PS1 as opposed to a console with no support that's officially dead. Only people taking advantage of the dump in progress would buy a Saturn at that point, but would do so KNOWING it's dead.

They were already telling people to buy Playstations, that's part of the reason why sales were flat in early 97. Still, it's not like the Best Buy employee was going to sit next to that pallet of Saturns to tell people about Stolar's announcement. He just confirmed what everybody else was already saying, and some were already thinking the Saturn was Sega's last console.

[zetastrike]

The Saturn was such a waste. If only someone even remotely competent had been in charge of it....

Was the programming difficulty really that much of a factor in its demise? People make a big deal of it but I find a hard time believing that because of the PS2.

[Team Andromeda]

Was the programming difficulty really that much of a factor in its demise? People make a big deal of it but I find a hard time believing that because of the PS2.

Yes and so does the N64 and PS3 show this is just an excuse . Sure it didn't help matters and SEGA really should have had better tools in place for launch, but I've seen interviews with treasure and a few others where they say the N64 was the hardest machine to developer for out of the PS, Saturn and N64 (never mind the most costly) . If it was easy of development that won the day consoles like the DC , Cube , XBox would have been the best selling consoles of all time.

[sheath]

I am convinced that Vic Ireland and Trip Hawkins are Sam Pettus' only primary industry sources. Mainly whenever he comments on behind closed doors conference meetings he is paraphrasing conjecture he has heard from Hawkins and/or Ireland.

[Moirai]

A 2D SONIC GAME, WITH THE GRAPHICS ON PAR WITH RADIANT SILVERGUN AND COTTON BOOMERANG.

[sheath]

Invoking point 8.

[A Black Falcon]

Yep, and in June of 1997 they dropped the price to $149.99, or $169.99 with your choice of a free game:
http://www.sega-saturn.com/saturn/other/news-jun.htm

Gamefan's arguments keep getting undercut more and more...

I'm talking about your average consumer, not the guy that read every issue of Gamefan and EGM.

Even your average consumer heard about it somehow, if they were interested in gaming at all or wanted to get a console that is... well, they either heard about it, or felt the effects of it as Saturn availability dried up as a result of Sega killing the system.

Yeah, the Sega CD sold better than either of those consoles in North America.

One of the resellers I'd posted noted that it TG-16 sold @ 900,000 units, but does that number include the CD bundle, the Turbo Express and the Turbo-Duo?

I don't know, but even if it's just the base system,those other ones sold so poorly that even with the CD and Duo added in, it quite likely still wasn't at a million. As for the TurboExpress, though, no clue.

I'd find Turbo games and accessories in large towns in east Texas, well into the mid-2000s. I still see Turbo games in smaller used gaming chains like Gamer X-change.

The TG16 must have sold much, much better in east Texas than it did in Maine, then, that's for sure.

It's Vic Ireland. He's not exactly the most reliable source of info. He was selling 10k of Exile?

The Turbo Duo was in stores like Toys 'R' Us, Kay-Bee and Babbage’s. The Jag CD wasn't so readily available.

Did those retailers ship their unsold stock back to NEC? I don't think they did, which would mean there were more than 20,000 units out there.

I wouldn't be surprised if that number isn't 100% accurate, but it's also the only number I have ever seen for Turbo CD or Duo sales, so it's that or nothing if you're looking for any kind of number for the sales of either one of those systems, I think. And even if it's not perfectly accurate, it paints a pretty grim picture of sales. I'd guess that yes, some of WD's Turbo CD games must have sold 10k or more. Otherwise why would he have said that? (Remember, they released four Turbo CD games, three CD and one Super CD)

[gamevet]

Even your average consumer heard about it somehow, if they were interested in gaming at all or wanted to get a console that is... well, they either heard about it, or felt the effects of it as Saturn availability dried up as a result of Sega killing the system.

I had friends that would see my Saturn and have no clue what it was. They knew what a Playstation was though. And this was around 1998.

When I had my apartment broke into, my Playstation, Dreamcast and N64 were stolen. They obviously didn't care to steal my Saturn.

The only people that were shocked with this news was those that had bought, or were thinking about buying a Saturn. The rest of the people had been bombarded with Playstation advertising and promotions.

I don't know, but even if it's just the base system,those other ones sold so poorly that even with the CD and Duo added in, it quite likely still wasn't at a million. As for the TurboExpress, though, no clue.

I just can't imagine TRU carrying the TG-16 for so many years, without it generating sales. The only explanation for that would be that NEC was paying well to keep it on the shelves. TRU went on to sell the Turbo-Duo, so they must have had some faith in the product.

The TG16 must have sold much, much better in east Texas than it did in Maine, then, that's for sure.

I don't live in east Texas, but if you had been to that part of the world, you'd have a better understanding of that area. It is not a wealthy part of Texas and you could say that it is borderline Louisiana mentality. If they can sell the Turbo there, that's saying something for it.

I wouldn't be surprised if that number isn't 100% accurate, but it's also the only number I have ever seen for Turbo CD or Duo sales, so it's that or nothing if you're looking for any kind of number for the sales of either one of those systems, I think. And even if it's not perfectly accurate, it paints a pretty grim picture of sales. I'd guess that yes, some of WD's Turbo CD games must have sold 10k or more. Otherwise why would he have said that? (Remember, they released four Turbo CD games, three CD and one Super CD)

I find it hard to believe that the Turbo-duo sold any less than 50k. The Jaguar sold 50k when it was test marketed in NYC, before rolling out to abysmal sales shortly after. It was certainly more attainable that the Jag CD with it's limited store locations.

[zetastrike]

I routinely see TG16 stuff in Albany. There's even a TG16 console on display in the game shop in my small hometown along with some games.

[Chilly Willy]

I had friends that would see my Saturn and have no clue what it was. They knew what a Playstation was though. And this was around 1998.

When I had my apartment broke into, my Playstation, Dreamcast and N64 were stolen. They obviously didn't care to steal my Saturn.

I guess there is always a silver lining to every event. One of the positive aspects of owning the Saturn.

[A Black Falcon]

I had friends that would see my Saturn and have no clue what it was. They knew what a Playstation was though. And this was around 1998.

When I had my apartment broke into, my Playstation, Dreamcast and N64 were stolen. They obviously didn't care to steal my Saturn.

The only people that were shocked with this news was those that had bought, or were thinking about buying a Saturn. The rest of the people had been bombarded with Playstation advertising and promotions.

Of course everyone was bombarded by N64 and Playstation advertising, but seriously, you can't understand that officially abandoning your console would have a serious impact on sales? Once again, just look at how the Saturn had virtually no holiday bump in '97! That's proof of the impact of Sega abandoning the system, and it absolutely would not have been that bad had they still been trying to sell what they could.

I just can't imagine TRU carrying the TG-16 for so many years, without it generating sales. The only explanation for that would be that NEC was paying well to keep it on the shelves. TRU went on to sell the Turbo-Duo, so they must have had some faith in the product.

Well, the thing with TRU is that they were pretty much the ONLY place to get anything Turbografx related in a lot of places. For instance, the one and only time I can actually remember seeing Turbografx stuff during the systems' life was at Toys R Us (in Maine). The system may have sold badly, but the people who did have it pretty much had to go to TRU to get stuff, which surely helped justify it for them.

I don't live in east Texas, but if you had been to that part of the world, you'd have a better understanding of that area. It is not a wealthy part of Texas and you could say that it is borderline Louisiana mentality. If they can sell the Turbo there, that's saying something for it.

It's probably like the Atari 7800 -- sold better in some areas, worse in others... ie, more regional than the Genesis, NES, or SNES, which were successful nationwide.

I find it hard to believe that the Turbo-duo sold any less than 50k. The Jaguar sold 50k when it was test marketed in NYC, before rolling out to abysmal sales shortly after. It was certainly more attainable that the Jag CD with it's limited store locations.

The Jaguar sold 50k in test market but only 125k before discontinuation, seriously? That's hard to believe... but as for the TurboDuo, I think that Vic Ireland's statement there can at least be taken to say that during its active life (ie, up to early '94), the Duo had only sold a couple of tens of thousands.