N64/PS1/Saturn/DC sales - US NPD

[Armoured Priest]

I'd seen enough Duos floating around in the wild back in the day that I'd probably be ok with thinking it broke 100k at least. Not saying it did great, but I have a hard time believing 50k or less.

Though Exile selling only 10k copies, that I can believe. Up until they folded you could buy any of Working Designs games directly from them. The only TG-16 game that was sold out in 96 was Exile 2: Wicked Phenomenon. The other 5 games they published they still had copies of (Which i bought, except for Parasol Stars, didn't care about that one).

As for the Saturn price drops, there was definitely (at least in some areas) a $50 drop in between the 399 and 299 dollar marks. I bought my Saturn from Toys R Us in October of 95. Id gone in with $420 cash (enough for the system and to cover tax). I'd just come off of being unemployed for 10 months and it was a time in my life that I didn't have any bills (parents gift of free room and board), so I had money burning a hole in my pocket and a new Sega system. It rang up $367.49.

@TA, yeah, I'd have been on board for a SoR game like that, it would have been glorious.

[gamevet]

Of course everyone was bombarded by N64 and Playstation advertising, but seriously, you can't understand that officially abandoning your console would have a serious impact on sales? Once again, just look at how the Saturn had virtually no holiday bump in '97! That's proof of the impact of Sega abandoning the system, and it absolutely would not have been that bad had they still been trying to sell what they could.

The Saturn had virtually no bump leading up to E3 in 1997. It was flat-lining during the near 6 months leading up to the 1997 E3. The N64 and PSX were showing solid sales up to the 97 E3, while the Saturn was hardly registering sales. Sega was still trying to sell what software they could for the Saturn, with games like Sega Touring Car Championship, Sonic R, Steep Slope Sliders, Duke Nukem 3D, Worldwide Soccer 98, Manx TT Superbike, Shining: The Holy Ark, World Series Baseball 98, Amok, Die Hard Arcade, Last Bronx and Fighters: Megamix.

Sega still posted massive losses during 97, even with all of those titles they had published.

Well, the thing with TRU is that they were pretty much the ONLY place to get anything Turbografx related in a lot of places. For instance, the one and only time I can actually remember seeing Turbografx stuff during the systems' life was at Toys R Us (in Maine). The system may have sold badly, but the people who did have it pretty much had to go to TRU to get stuff, which surely helped justify it for them.

You didn't have a Babbages or Electronics Boutique in your area?

It's probably like the Atari 7800 -- sold better in some areas, worse in others... ie, more regional than the Genesis, NES, or SNES, which were successful nationwide.

I'm surprised that the 7800 managed to sell over 3 million units. I don't recall seeing much of the console at retail.

The Jaguar sold 50k in test market but only 125k before discontinuation, seriously? That's hard to believe... but as for the TurboDuo, I think that Vic Ireland's statement there can at least be taken to say that during its active life (ie, up to early '94), the Duo had only sold a couple of tens of thousands.

I forgot that the Jag was also test marketed in SF, along with NY. The console sold @ 250,000 units total.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

The Saturn did have some life in it before E3 though. After the holidays it went back to it's normal sales level before the small summer increase that usually happens before the holidays. the N64 and PS1 dropped back too, but their normal sales were still higher than the Saturn.

Had Sega not killed it at E3 1997 they could have probably at least maintained 1996 performance, if not a little better if they kept trying.

[gamevet]

The Saturn did have some life in it before E3 though. After the holidays it went back to it's normal sales level before the small summer increase that usually happens before the holidays. the N64 and PS1 dropped back too, but their normal sales were still higher than the Saturn.

Had Sega not killed it at E3 1997 they could have probably at least maintained 1996 performance, if not a little better if they kept trying.

I'm looking at the chart and seeing that Sony's sales kept increasing as the year passed. The N64 wasn't seeing many declines either. The Saturn had became the #3 console overnight. It's very unlikely it would have had better sales in the fall of 97, with the way Nintendo and Sony were dominating the market. The Saturn had become the Turbo GrafX-16; that other console that people forgot about.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Look more carefully. It goes back to what it was before the holidays of 1996. The only reason it's looking like it's going down after March is because the next data point is after the E3 announcement.

[gamevet]

Look more carefully. It goes back to what it was before the holidays of 1996. The only reason it's looking like it's going down after March is because the next data point is after the E3 announcement.

There's a dot for every month.

It wasn't performing much better than it had the 1st 6 months of 96 and it might not have sold as well as it did in 96, without Nights

[TrekkiesUnite118]

There's a dot for every month.

It wasn't performing much better than it had the 1st 6 months of 96 and it might not have sold as well as it did in 96, without Nights

It sold well in 1996 because of the 3 free games deal, a deal they were still doing in 1997. The sales went down after the holidays, as they did for the PS1 and N64. However they could have spiked again for the holidays if Sega hadn't given up in 1997. There were bumps in the summer of 1996, just like there were for the other two systems. We probably would have seen some bumps in the summer of 1997 too had Sega not given up. It flat lines that summer due to the E3 comment. Yeah there's a slight down turn before, but that's not indicative of a long term trend in comparison to the rest of the Saturn's sales. That same down turn was there in 1996.

[gamevet]

It sold well in 1996 because of the 3 free games deal, a deal they were still doing in 1997. The sales went down after the holidays, as they did for the PS1 and N64. However they could have spiked again for the holidays if Sega hadn't given up in 1997. There were bumps in the summer of 1996, just like there were for the other two systems. We probably would have seen some bumps in the summer of 1997 too had Sega not given up. It flat lines that summer due to the E3 comment. Yeah there's a slight down turn before, but that's not indicative of a long term trend in comparison to the rest of the Saturn's sales. That same down turn was there in 1996.

It should have sold well with Sega's flagship Nights. I'm well aware of the increase in sales that the 3 free games deal generated, but it should have continued good sales into the 1st quarter of 97, which it didn't. Saying that the sales for the PS1 and N64 declined after the holidays is like saying a black wall is black; it's pretty obvious that sales decline during the 1st quarter, but they didn't decline so much for Nintendo and Sony that they registered a non-movement on the sales charts, because they couldn't go any lower.

I'm going to show you just how uneventful Stolar's comments were to the media during E3 97. This is from EGM issue 98. It wraps up the E3 show and talks about how Sega wasn't showing their new 64-bit console. I've also attached an editorial from issue 96 (before E3) that talks about Sega's future plans and why 3rd party development was dying on the Saturn.

Gamefan's volume 5 issue 8 (August issue) talks about the games at the show and really doesn't say anything about Stolar's comments. In the Other Stuff section, he talks about Sega showing the Dural to European developers behind closed doors and a release of September 1998.

Stolar didn't blab some secret that the media didn't already know. Sega fans just get too wrapped up in why their console failed and always look for someone to blame, when the outcome was pretty obvious. I've had my Saturn since day one (North America) and I knew it wasn't going to keep up, once the N64 had arrived.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

I'm not saying it wouldn't have gotten to 2nd place. I'm simply saying it could have stayed somewhat competitive and still made some money. And no, the sales didn't register no movement in Q1 of 1997. I think you are looking at the wrong year. In Q1 of 1997 the Saturn sales are actually on a slight upwards slope. During that periods Nintendos sales are actually going down. Saturn's start to go down around May of 1997. After that then there is little to no change as it flat lines.

[gamevet]

I'm not saying it wouldn't have gotten to 2nd place. I'm simply saying it could have stayed somewhat competitive and still made some money. And no, the sales didn't register no movement in Q1 of 1997. I think you are looking at the wrong year. In Q1 of 1997 the Saturn sales are actually on a slight upwards slope. During that periods Nintendos sales are actually going down. Saturn's start to go down around May of 1997. After that then there is little to no change as it flat lines.

The sales aren't even registering on the chart from April 97 until November of 97. They really couldn't go much lower. And from Jan-Mar we can't even tell how many units that bump represents. Is it 500 or 5000? Even if it managed a steady 5K per month and ended the year with a 100k during the holidays, it wouldn't have sold 200k. The Saturn was not going to do better than it had in 96 and without the 500k or so units it had sold during that holiday season, it would have been a pretty abysmal year.

1997 was the year of the Playstation. The media was already saying that the console was going to own the 97 holiday season and Final Fantasy VII was the title that kicked that console's sales beyond the competition.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Are you sure you are looking at the right time frame? Sales are registering in April of 1997. They aren't as much as the PS1 or N64, but they are there. Try looking at the picture on full size.

And according to this article, Sega sold over 500,000 Saturn's in December of 1996, which was 3x what they sold in November of 1996 (160kish):

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Sega+t......-a019014339

[gamevet]

Are you sure you are looking at the right time frame? Sales are registering in April of 1997. They aren't as much as the PS1 or N64, but they are there. Try looking at the picture on full size.

And according to this article, Sega sold over 500,000 Saturn's in December of 1996, which was 3x what they sold in November of 1996 (160kish):

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Sega+t......-a019014339

I corrected that, before you typed it.

I don't think you're reading the chart right. The 3rd dot is March and the 4th dot is April. April is the 1st month where the line goes down as far as it can and doesn't come back up until December. The E3 announcements had very little to do with the sudden abandonment of the hardware by consumers, and with most homes not having internet at the time, they would not find out about Stolar's comments until the August issues of gaming magazines came out, or someone spread the word at their local Funcoland.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

That's fine, but sales are still there in January-April 1997. Yeah they are low, but they are not completely flat-lining yet.

[A Black Falcon]

The Saturn had virtually no bump leading up to E3 in 1997. It was flat-lining during the near 6 months leading up to the 1997 E3. The N64 and PSX were showing solid sales up to the 97 E3, while the Saturn was hardly registering sales. Sega was still trying to sell what software they could for the Saturn, with games like Sega Touring Car Championship, Sonic R, Steep Slope Sliders, Duke Nukem 3D, Worldwide Soccer 98, Manx TT Superbike, Shining: The Holy Ark, World Series Baseball 98, Amok, Die Hard Arcade, Last Bronx and Fighters: Megamix.

Sega still posted massive losses during 97, even with all of those titles they had published.

Sega released those games, sure, but with their E3 comments they officially abandoned the console, and none of those games were relevant because Sega had already announced that the system was effectively discontinued.

You didn't have a Babbages or Electronics Boutique in your area?

There was an EB and a Software ETC. in the mall. I have no memory of seeing TG16 stuff at them (Software ETC always did have more PC game stuff than console, though...). Then Gamestop bought the Software ETC and then EB too, then eventually closed one of them (didn't need two Gamestops almost within sight of each other in the same mall...). Anyway, there may have been a few TG16 games in EB, but I don't remember it. I do know that the only time I ever played a TG16 demo station was this one time we were at Toys R Us, and I thought it was kind of interesting because I'd never seen the system in person before. It was some shmup, of course.

I also got games at Kay-Bee Toys, Toy Works (large Kay-Bee; opened in '94 or '95), and Sears. The mall was farther away, but those two stores were in our town. I don't remember those stores ever carrying anything Turbografx. PC games, Sega, Nintendo, Sony once the PS1 released, yeah, they had that stuff.

I'm surprised that the 7800 managed to sell over 3 million units. I don't recall seeing much of the console at retail.

A lot of people were surprised when those numbers came out a couple of years ago, yeah. But they are official.

I forgot that the Jag was also test marketed in SF, along with NY. The console sold @ 250,000 units total.

Yeah, but Atari said in early '96, when readying for their sale, that they'd only sold 120,000-something. The other half were sold deeply discounted after the systems' discontinuation. I DO remember seeing piles of Jaguars in what was probably later 1996, in Toy Works. It had like 3+ games packed in the box. I thought of getting one (since I didn't have any consoles and it was like $50...), but didn't do it; that was a fair amount of money for me back then, and I didn't think I'd see new games for it... which I wouldn't have, of course.

I'd seen enough Duos floating around in the wild back in the day that I'd probably be ok with thinking it broke 100k at least. Not saying it did great, but I have a hard time believing 50k or less.

You know what they say, personal experience doesn't mean much. I mean, I've visited stores that sell older games around this area fairly regularly since about 2005, and a few stores before that too, and I've never seen a Turbo CD, Turbo Duo, or CD-based Turbografx game in person (in a store, I mean). I've seen 3DO stuff, Jaguar, that one Turbografx system, Atari 7800s and Sega Master Systems a few times, Colecovision and Intellivision, a bit of 5200... but Turbo stuff? Almost nonexistent, other than that one system with 7 games that I saw once and bought (in early '09 I think it was?), and one other copy of Keith Courage one other store around here had once.

And back then, it was quite uncommon around here as well.

Though Exile selling only 10k copies, that I can believe. Up until they folded you could buy any of Working Designs games directly from them. The only TG-16 game that was sold out in 96 was Exile 2: Wicked Phenomenon. The other 5 games they published they still had copies of (Which i bought, except for Parasol Stars, didn't care about that one).

His point was that WD's games were selling quit well compared to the tiny size of the install base. I wouldn't know if that's true or not, of course, but it's plausible anyway. He did release six games on the platform (including the two cards)...

That's fine, but sales are still there in January-April 1997. Yeah they are low, but they are not completely flat-lining yet.

Yeah, once again, Saturn numbers on that chart zero out in May, and stay there because of E3. You are quite right.

[gamevet]

Sega released those games, sure, but with their E3 comments they officially abandoned the console, and none of those games were relevant because Sega had already announced that the system was effectively discontinued.

Magazines were already talking about Dural, before the show even happened. Stolar's comment confirmed what many in the media were already saying. Sega of America had already shut down it internal development teams for the Saturn, before E3.

Yeah, but Atari said in early '96, when readying for their sale, that they'd only sold 120,000-something. The other half were sold deeply discounted after the systems' discontinuation. I DO remember seeing piles of Jaguars in what was probably later 1996, in Toy Works. It had like 3+ games packed in the box. I thought of getting one (since I didn't have any consoles and it was like $50...), but didn't do it; that was a fair amount of money for me back then, and I didn't think I'd see new games for it... which I wouldn't have, of course.

I picked up my jag from the online retailers Tele-Games. They were selling a 4 game bundle that included Pinball Phantasies, Troy Aikman Football, Tempest 2000 and Double Dragon V. I think I paid @ $159 for the bundle. I picked up a lot of titles for the console from Incredible Universe, when they began slashing prices.

Yeah, once again, Saturn numbers on that chart zero out in May, and stay there because of E3. You are quite right.

You guys are not reading the chart right. The Saturn's large sales spike is in December, followed by 3 months (Jan, Feb and March) of ho-hum sales and falling flat in April. Check out the 4th dot after the December sales spike.

The 1997 E3 was held at the end of June, so his announcement had nothing to do with the sudden sales drop in April.



http://www.ign.com/wikis/e3/E3_1997

The 3rd Electronics Entertainment Expo took place between June 19-21, 1997 in the Georgia Dome in Atlanta, Georgia.

SEGA had a big booth at the show, but the company's representatives looked awfully subdued. Word had it that SEGA was pulling all of its advertising.

Like I'd shown above (I posted 2 magazine clips from EGM and EGM2), the magazines (Gamefan included) were not talking about Stolar's announcement on the future of the Saturn. They were talking about Dural, even before the E3 show, and a behind closed doors showing to key publishers. The talk about Sega's console coming out in 1998 probably had a bigger impact (Playstation's surge in popularity as well) on sales, than his comment that just confirmed what everyone was already saying before the show. The magazines didn't have E3 coverage until late July, with their August issues. There wasn't a whole lot of internet users back then either, so the magazines were still the main source for gaming news back then.


I know it's hard to read ( I had to downsize the image to meet the attachment limits of this site), so I'll post this pre-E3 comment that I had attached from the July issue of EGM.

From the third-party publishers we talked to most have stated that one reason whey they aren't doing Saturn games is the lack of support and cooperation with Sega. For instance, the newest program libraries (the ones that do the best "tricks" with the Saturn) are not being given out by Sega of Japan. Instead, the developers hace to either invest sizeable amounts of time and effort to "learn"on how to do the tricks or to go and compromise their goals as to how they want their game to come out. Or, as in many instances these days, not even bother to do a Saturn version at all and stick with the Playstation and PC. When that happens, nobody wins. The end result is where Sega is now-in a "quality-not-quantity-of-games" attitude...meaning that there is a decreasing number of dedicated Saturn third-party developers in the U.S. and Sega is relying more and more on the arcade conversions from its R&D headquarters in Japan.

They later go on about Sega's future is with Dural, and it being a system that developers can work with.