The joint SEGA-SONY hardware system - Sega of America and Sony tried to team up

[kool kitty89]

This is the same programmer who on a whim left SEGA Japan to go to SEGA America to make Sonic 2 And like I said before SEGA Japan Team never shared code or engines between themself's, so any half decent producer would have known trying to get use of the NiGHTS engine was going to be a uphill task. That doesn't cover up that a so called number 1 In-House Team in America would need to use an Outside engine in the 1st place after some 1 and half of coding .

1. If the story is true, it was upper management who screwed the pooch on the Nights thing anyway, not Naka. Either it was his engine and taken without using the proper channels and without having his involvement at all (with pretty predictable debacle resulting from that), or it was massive misconception and lack of communication that led Naka to believe Coffin was using Nights when he in fact was simply using an engine with a demo aesthetically similar to Nights, and not technically related at all.

2. By Mark Cerny's own words, Naka did NOT leave SoJ on a whim. He QUIT his job at SoJ due to the horrible treatment he got immediately following Sonic. (instead of praise or recognition, he got criticized over missing the target deadline)
Marc Cerny (who'd been working for Sega in Japan) found out about this and managed to convince Naka to join up with the new American R&D start-up he was leading the creation of (STI), which Naka agreed to and went on to work at STI. (developing Sonic 2 among other things)

That's what happens and what happend with the likes of the Nomad too.

1. that was fairly stupid too (for multiple reasons), and
2. the Nomad was a much more niche market product, not a new major platform (it's not like it was ever intended to be a mainstream handheld platform in its own right, just a high-end Genesis accessory) and it didn't need much "support" as such, aside from marketing and distribution. It's in the same vein as the Wondermega or Multimega/CD-X. (albeit in the latter cases, it was rather odd -and dumb even- to have such niche luxury derivatives of the MCD, but never a proper cost-optimized basic Duo style combo system -you know, something that could have managed $300 in '93 when the SegaCD itself had hit $230 and Genesis $130 . . . perhaps $200-250 by late '94, etc)

SONY was at its most arrogant with the PS2 and I do laugh at having a console that sells some 75 million units has slipping . No-one could have really seen the Wii would have sold in the numbers it did, but then that fad as truly gone and Nintendo is in a whole heap of trouble with the Wii U .

Not even a fad, really. Just that the Wii U has all the faults of the Wii with many fewer of the advantages.
(Wii U gamepad gimmick isn't as marketable and added much more to cost than did the wii remote in '06, Nintendo's marketing campaigns pale in comparison to the Wii, the system came out MUCH longer after its predecessor than the Wii vs GC -with the entire generation lagging too- and ended up with proportionally much weaker hardware than even the Wii relative to their release dates -Wii was powerful enough to allow pretty easy ports of late 6th gen titles and decent ports of some newer PC games and such, while also moderately outperforming the previous gen consoles in most respects, the Wii U doesn't even do that -mostly due to the weak CPU- and it's even worse off than that since even the best 6th gen consoles were quite old by 2012, so a much bigger gap still to common PC gaming hardware)
All of those things factor in to lukewarm initial consumer response, as well as limited software support . . . and those problems then feed back and perpetuate the problem too.

That said, the Wii U is still doing pretty decently well considering all those disadvantages, and has room for improvement if Nintendo can address some of the problems they have more control over. (still, a lot of their problems are down to the hardware and overall cost effectiveness IMO -cost to performance wise- and a lot could have been better if they'd put the cost of the gamepad into the internal system architecture itself . . . like more RAM, at least a moderately faster GPU, and a CPU with around 2x the performance of what it has now, that combined with Wii Motion Plus standard -and leveraging that as the main gimmick with the gamepad perhaps as more an optional thing . . . or pushing the 3DS in that role entirely- and I think they'd have been pretty well off overall, marketing notwithstanding -still vastly cheaper than the competition, but close enough to at least be in the ballpark and easily powerful enough to last-gen HD console shovelware to pad the library -and perhaps some of those being actually upgraded rather than remaining pure shovelware)

Really, the Wii's gimmicks are more like the DS's overall IMO, more than just a fad, but something that could mature into a very useful long-term feature and transcend the overly-common superficial use (or misuse) of the new control scheme in favor of legitimate enhancement of the basic gaming experience. (and like the DS, there was a notable minority of games that used the new features truly well . . . and far too many others that should have just had options for normal controls -including some otherwise quite good games, like Star Fox command)

Well I'm guessing here... but if you were a Sonic fan I would imagine you would have already own a Mega Drive - so all you would need its a copy of the game and the Mega CD unit and in the end I think that would work out cheaper than a Saturn and a copy of Sonic.

At launch (in Japan or early '95 in the US) yes, but shortly after not so much. A $300 Saturn in late 1995 or early '96 is cheaper than a $300 MCD in late 1992 or early 1993, let alone a $250 Saturn (late 1996) vs a $230 MCD (late 1993).

And yes, I realize Sega was taking big losses on Saturn compared to the MCD (hardware sales margin wise), but I'm still addressing the main premise here. That, and there's other marketing differences between the MCD and Saturn overall . . . though Sega's actual market positioning and marketing of both platforms probably could have been improved a fair bit. (more so for Saturn, obviously, but the Sega CD could have been pushed closer to the mainstream console market and less high-end niche IMO -that and had enough general software support on average to really draw average gamers more along with some high-end consumers, but that's another topic )

Still, the fact Sonic CD never became the standard pack in was a problem too . . . in fact, SoA's general pack-in bundles were kind of sketchy in general. (not so much as being skimpy, but just poorly chosen and even wasteful in the face of relatively large bundles of -often not cheaply developed- software with relatively limited appeal and/or limited breadth in demonstrating the system's capabilities)

He's already been found to be a lair and he loves to paint a totally different picture to make himself look good and how it's always somelse's fault - Very much like Trip Hawkins. I'll have far more respect for Tom is he just came out and said he made a bad call and got it wrong with the 32X .

OK, where is he obviously a liar? And don't try to give me some obvious PR bullshit quotes from when he was still working at Sega, pick out some actual detailed post-Sega quotes that are true lies. (not a slip of memory, not mistaking some details, but intentional misinformation)

I'm not claiming he's a super honest guy (very few successful people in his job description ever are), but I still haven't seen anything in his interviews that's blatantly wrong . . . aside from technical details on things he almost certainly doesn't really understand. (though many interviewers are far more guilty of this in general, and even worse then they complicate matters by trying to paraphrase on that stuff and "dumb it down" even more for average readers)

[Team Andromeda]

If the story is true, it was upper management who screwed the pooch on the Nights thing anyway, not Naka. Either it was his engine and taken without using the proper channels and without having his involvement at all (with pretty predictable debacle resulting from that), or it was massive misconception and lack of communication that led Naka to believe Coffin was using Nights when he in fact was simply using an engine with a demo aesthetically similar to Nights, and not technically related at all.

How many Top class teams do you know of that after more than a year of coding - they need to go outside cap in hand for someone else engine I can't think of many. You then have all the issues of NiGHTS being only just finished and I doubt many of it tools and libraries were translated and never mind that it was also being reworked ready for Project Sonic . That said I thought both the engines for Sonic X looked more than good enough anyway - it seems to me the changing of platforms , pressure of being understaffed and overworked are far more to blame

He QUIT his job at SoJ due to the horrible treatment he got immediately following Sonic

I'm sorry but at the end of the day on Sonic he was just a coder and one that was known for his crybaby tantrums .

to have such niche luxury derivatives of the MCD, but never a proper cost-optimized basic Duo style combo system -you know, something that could have managed $300 in '93 when the SegaCD itself had hit $230 and Genesis $130 . . . perhaps $200-250 by late '94, etc

NEC did make some of their own High end luxury derivaties - I mean the Pc engine Duo Boxed Monitor and Pc Engine LT spring to mind and their prices were really top end .

Not even a fad, really. Just that the Wii U has all the faults of the Wii with many fewer of the advantages

No mum and gran don't want or like to use the Wii U . With the Wii and its simple controler anyone could play it (and most did ) and that was refected in sales, but like all fads after a while they're packed away to never be used again .

That said, the Wii U is still doing pretty decently well considering all those disadvantages,

Its selling like crap and in a whole heap of trouble .

At launch (in Japan or early '95 in the US) yes, but shortly after not so much. A $300 Saturn in late 1995 or early '96 is cheaper than a $300 MCD in late 1992 or early 1993, let alone a $250 Saturn (late 1996) vs a $230 MCD (late 1993).

And yes, I realize Sega was taking big losses on Saturn compared to the MCD (hardware sales margin wise),

So we're being selective ? A Mega CD/SEGA CD Model 2 unti was way cheaper than the Saturn and SEGA was never taking a hit on the Saturn it was sold as near as dam it to cost price and that was reflected in the mega high price - That was always going to come down with cheaper CD-Roms and Ram coming online .

OK, where is he obviously a liar?

He lied about the PS and SEGA - the Truth of the matter is SONY Japan were developing a console and locked into a deal with Nintendo . He's lied about the Saturn as I remember him persnoally writing a 2 page reponse on Usenet Newgroup "rec.games.video.sega" prasing the Saturn, its power and games . Only do now come out and say he didn't like the system it was underpowered and all the other rubbish .
In the end he's your typical pig headed America sales man that's never at fault and loves to blow his own trumpet

[Melf]

This is the same programmer who on a whim left SEGA Japan to go to SEGA America to make Sonic 2 And like I said before SEGA Japan Team never shared code or engines between themself's, so any half decent producer would have known trying to get use of the NiGHTS engine was going to be a uphill task. That doesn't cover up that a so called number 1 In-House Team in America would need to use an Outside engine in the 1st place after some 1 and half of coding .

Yo're going to have to choose which argument you want to use. Either SOJ lets its subsidiaries do what they think is best, or it's not. It can't be both. And when was the Team on Sonic Xtreme considered to be a #1 in-house team? STI was a shadow of itself by 1996, so I don't think there's any ground to call the team #1. I would argue that the game should have been given to the best people possible, but that would have involved Japan, who didn't have time to support its new hardware with its flagship franchise.

That's what happens and what happend with the likes of the Nomad too.

Yes, and both are examples of horrible decision-making. Everyone points to SOA wasting money on too many things, but Japan gets a pass on developing and releasing hardware it doesn't even support. Hell, the Nomad wasn't even released in Japan.

The point is , unlike with the XBox and 360 where MS just dropped all support for the XBox and just sold off all the stock. MS has now brought out a new 360 model , the console is still in production and will be supported for a while at least . Tottaly different to what MS did with the XBox .

But not different than what most every other console maker has done since forever. Releasing a smaller, cheaper version of current hardware when new tech arrives is not a new thing. It's a way to keep revenue coming in, since the older machine is now at its most profitable to make and sell, until the new machine takes hold. And "being supported for a while" is quite different than being the company's focus, which is my entire point here.

SONY was at its most arrogant with the PS2 and I do laugh at having a console that sells some 75 million units has slipping . No-one could have really seen the Wii would have sold in the numbers it did, but then that fad as truly gone and Nintendo is in a whole heap of trouble with the Wii U .

No one said 75 million units was bad, but Sony isn't in this game to be third place. To have been a monster #1 for two hardware cycles in a row and then be outsold by Nintendo and MS is not making Japan happy, I can tell you.

Its a fad and sometimes fads can sell in great numbers .

Yes, even when the hardware is faulty. People still buy when they think the matter has been resolved, as they obviously did with the 360.

Monthly sales show it was having an impact. the move to give you a 3 year peace of mind was truly unprecedented

Winning a few months means squat when the year-end fiscal report still gives the year to the competition, which is what happened for six years in a row with the PS3.

Sorry even today £5 to £10 saving is a big deal .

I thought it was all about the here and now? When games like Virtua Fighter 2 is $60, it doesn't seem like much of a savings.

The poor sod that had to replace 5 consoles ?

Yep, if he bought those five consoles. Most likely not all 5, but more than one, to be sure. It still works in MS's favor.

Well I'm guessing here... but if you were a Sonic fan I would imagine you would have already own a Mega Drive - so all you would need its a copy of the game and the Mega CD unit and in the end I think that would work out cheaper than a Saturn and a copy of Sonic.

Short-term, yes, it was cheaper. But you forget that the Saturn was new hardware, and a purchase meant new games for the next few years. It was considered, as all new platforms are, an investment. In contrast, the Sega CD was an add-on that may not have projected that as well. And if everyone knew the Saturn was coming by late '93 and early '94, why would they buy a Sega CD?

No you quite clear and said 'noone' . Only that you were completely wrong and coming from the person that's got a lot to say about Sonic - I'm amazed you overlooked how much of a push SEGA gave Sonic 1 and II in the summer for starters

How was I wrong? The examples you gave were of titles that were released in summer because their publishers had more important titles coming in holiday (Ubisoft), they only had a few releases during the year and had to spread them out (Nintendo) or they were releasing new hardware that Christmas (Sony).

As for Sonic, this is exactly what I said:

Let me also remind you of what happened at Christmas of 1991 when it was bundled with the Genesis and got the bulk of Sega's holiday marketing budget: the Genesis outsold the SNES 2-1. Sonic was released in summer, but it was heavily promoted and pushed for Christmas. Until really this generation, most companies reserved their marketing budget for pushing their best titles in the 4th quarter (Oct., Nov., and Dec.).

I'm surprised you've overlooked what happened to Sonic when it was bundled with the Genesis - for Christmas. And the person saying this is Shinobu Toyoda, not Kalinske. Those sales and market share changes happened because of the fourth quarter holiday season, not because of Sonic's debut in summer. We're not talking about the actual release as much as the marketing dollars assigned to promote it. Every one of the other examples you gave were either pushed hard in holiday (as Sonic was) or were kept to summer in order to devote those marketing dollars to more important titles. For instance, do you really think the new Splinter Cell game is as important to Ubisoft as Assassin's Creed IV or Watchdogs on the PS4? We're talking marketing.

He's already been found to be a lair and he loves to paint a totally different picture to make himself look good and how it's always somelse's fault - Very much like Trip Hawkins. I'll have far more respect for Tom is he just came out and said he made a bad call and got it wrong with the 32X .

How is he a liar, exactly? Embellisher? Yes. Overstating his importance sometimes? Yes. But a liar, I don't believe that. I think you should go back and read what he said about the Sega/Sony machine (and he's not the only one who has said it) and see when that happened.

Have any SOJ executives ever refuted what he (and Al Nilsen, Joe Miller, Scott Bayless, Mike Latham, Jim Huether, or any other SOA exec) has said? Have you seen any SOJ documents proving them wrong? I really doubt this is all some SOA conspiracy, 20 years after leaving the company, that all these people are covering up just to make themselves look good to the few nerds like us who even still care. When I see FACTS from SOJ, either through interviews or documents, then I'll decide if the former SOA people are lying.

[kool kitty89]

How many Top class teams do you know of that after more than a year of coding - they need to go outside cap in hand for someone else engine I can't think of many. You then have all the issues of NiGHTS being only just finished and I doubt many of it tools and libraries were translated and never mind that it was also being reworked ready for Project Sonic . That said I thought both the engines for Sonic X looked more than good enough anyway - it seems to me the changing of platforms , pressure of being understaffed and overworked are far more to blame

I suggest you watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIP6GlmyXuI


There's some nice overall info on the subject there. (including a few added bits to the story which I've been commenting on)


But yeah, in any case, I agree:
STI's original dev team was well enough on its own, not perfect, but good enough all around. (lots of talent, just not as cooperative as they could have been).

It was SoA upper management (under both Kalinske and Stolar) combined with Nakayma who screwed them up starting in early 1996.

SoA management decided to "help" the STI team by brining in Point of View software. However, the added staff and development tools PoV brought to the Saturn end of development were generally BEHIND the work already accomplished by Senn and Alon on conversion of their PC level engine. So all PoV did was bloat the project with added staff and waste both time and money on the project.

Even worse, the PoV debacle directly led to Nakayma being misinformed about development progress by seeing PoV's quite poor conversion of the PC engine to Saturn, and then leaving in a furious huff just before Alon and Senn could arrive at the meeting and demonstrate their independent work on the Saturn conversion. (which had made major strides and they'd literally spent up to the last minute optimizing it)

THEN Senn and Allon (and PoV) were taken off the project entirely with the entire PC level engine scrapped and Chris Coffin directed to build a whole new level engine.
Here's where things get sketchy: either Coffin moved forward on his own taking aesthetic inspiration from the Nights prototype, or Stolar actually got the Nights documenation/tools brought over for his use. In any case, Yuji Naka found out about it (or was misinformed about it) and became quite upset and forced the engine to be reworked once again. (either Coffin had to scrap his OWN work or drop the Nights project, depending on which story is true)

And the rest was just down to Coffin on his own racing the clock. (why Alon and Senn hadn't been directed to start new work on a ground-up designed Saturn engine of their own I have no idea)


So, obvsiously the problem was management related and not fundamental to the development staff. It started with PoV being needlessly brought in and snowballed from there.

I'm sorry but at the end of the day on Sonic he was just a coder and one that was known for his crybaby tantrums .

Out of curiosity, were there ever accounts from SoA staff regarding Naka being that tempermental? (was that one of the difficulties over doing American+Japanese collaboration on Sonic 2?)

NEC did make some of their own High end luxury derivaties - I mean the Pc engine Duo Boxed Monitor and Pc Engine LT spring to mind and their prices were really top end .

So what? That says nothing about my comments. The point was centered on the existence of a low-cost "normal" console market targeted combo MD+CD derivative (more like what NEC did with the Duo).

I wasn't arguing that having luxury versions was a bad thing, just that they shouldn't exclude having priority on general mass market counterparts.

So we're being selective ? A Mega CD/SEGA CD Model 2 unti was way cheaper than the Saturn and SEGA was never taking a hit on the Saturn it was sold as near as dam it to cost price and that was reflected in the mega high price - That was always going to come down with cheaper CD-Roms and Ram coming online .

Nope, not selective at all. I covered both my bases there.

If you read what I actually said: the late 1993 Sega CD (model 2) at $230 would be more expensive compared to the mid 1996 Saturn at $250.
Though double checking that, they'd be almost exactly the same price in that context. ($230 in 1993 is $249.74 in 1996)

He lied about the PS and SEGA - the Truth of the matter is SONY Japan were developing a console and locked into a deal with Nintendo . He's lied about the Saturn as I remember him persnoally writing a 2 page reponse on Usenet Newgroup "rec.games.video.sega" prasing the Saturn, its power and games . Only do now come out and say he didn't like the system it was underpowered and all the other rubbish .
In the end he's your typical pig headed America sales man that's never at fault and loves to blow his own trumpet

What the hell are you talking about. You're not making any sense at all. He never lied about the Playstation or Nintendo's relationship with them. (or the PSX's development in general, let alone the unrelated 1989 Nintendo CD design . . . or subsequent Sony design based on that that was scrapped around 1993 -at which point the PSX design must have been in development for quite some time)

His statements about the SGI chipset were also confirmed (and fully explained) by Joe Miller recently in his interview with Melf. (a shame Melf didn't ask him about the working relationship with Sony of America and the collaborative efforts Kalinske, Olaffson, and Miller were leading per Kalinske's comments) And if you're thinking of that whole Sony+Sega thing when you say "lies about the PS" then you're wrong, since that was totally an American affair at the time (1993), and Olaffson probably knew little to nothing about Sony's PSX developments at the time. (the only JP involvement was Sony's OK and Nakayma's No Way . . . they DID present it to Sony and Sega of Japan though, so both of them had access to all the information they'd gathered from engineers and programmers on what was wanted for a next-gen system, so Sony and or Sega of Japan could have used that in late development stages of the Saturn and related planning -something Kalinske makes no mention of or claims whatsoever, but I and others have made inferences on)

And again, ANYTHING he said while actually at Sega wouldn't even qualify here, since that's going to be ripe with bullshit PR statements not reflecting his personal opinions, truth, or facts.

After his time at Sega, in actual non-biased-by-employment-position candid interviews (like with Melf) he's been pretty consistent on all of his statements overall.

Certainly not like Steve Jobs or Nolan Bushnell who tended to make things up (often for their own benefit more than the company) than then perpetuate it forever. (in both cases after leaving the companies)

[kool kitty89]

Yo're going to have to choose which argument you want to use. Either SOJ lets its subsidiaries do what they think is best, or it's not. It can't be both. And when was the Team on Sonic Xtreme considered to be a #1 in-house team? STI was a shadow of itself by 1996, so I don't think there's any ground to call the team #1. I would argue that the game should have been given to the best people possible, but that would have involved Japan, who didn't have time to support its new hardware with its flagship franchise.

Shadow, how so? It was bloated and overbuilt sure (Kalinske's bad on that one), but it wasn't until the very end of the year (after the madness of Xtreme) that the big layoffs began.

I think calling them top-tier programmers and development staff would be fair, at least given the talent involved with Sonic Xtreme as it was in early 1996.

SoA and SoJ management ruined that team though and threw all their work away multiple times from the Point of View debacle to the Nakayma review mishap to the Nights (or misunderstood Nights-a-like) creation and then removal, and the whole thing about dumping Senn and Alon and leaving Coffin alone to rebuild the game largely from scratch.
Kind of reminds me of some of the crap going on at Atari Inc in the early 80s.

But not different than what most every other console maker has done since forever. Releasing a smaller, cheaper version of current hardware when new tech arrives is not a new thing. It's a way to keep revenue coming in, since the older machine is now at its most profitable to make and sell, until the new machine takes hold. And "being supported for a while" is quite different than being the company's focus, which is my entire point here.

And MS might have even considered doing that (at least in the US), if not for the situation with the Xbox's manufacturing. (effectively preventing any such cost-redution due to the licensing/off the shelf parts purchase agreements with Intel and Nvidia)

Heh, and with the GC, the Wii was win-win since it was compatible and sold for a MUCH higher profit margin than the GC at its discontinuation. ($100 vs $250 for hardware that was mostly the same, cost reduced in some areas and boosted in others -if they HAD kept the low margins of the GC, the Wii probably would have been more like $150 or MUCH more powerful )

Yes, even when the hardware is faulty. People still buy when they think the matter has been resolved, as they obviously did with the 360.

Or when other merits of the product (or perceived merits) are felt to be worth the risk.

Short-term, yes, it was cheaper. But you forget that the Saturn was new hardware, and a purchase meant new games for the next few years. It was considered, as all new platforms are, an investment. In contrast, the Sega CD was an add-on that may not have projected that as well. And if everyone knew the Saturn was coming by late '93 and early '94, why would they buy a Sega CD?

Sega CD was cheaper and already established on the market (and would be much cheaper and more software rich by the time the Saturn hit the market).
Similar reasons you'd go for Sega CD over 3DO in '93 or '94.

As for "add on" vs "new platform" in the Sega CD's case it was really worth treating much more like a new platform than an add-on given the drastic hardware differences between the MD alone, and totally different media. Having a duo version alongside it would have helped too.
(well that, and there's a good argument that it wasn't worth making an add-on considering the many benefits of building a new CD console entirely for 1991 -MUCH more cost effective IMO)
See: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...-Reality-stuff

I'm surprised you've overlooked what happened to Sonic when it was bundled with the Genesis - for Christmas. And the person saying this is Shinobu Toyoda, not Kalinske. Those sales and market share changes happened because of the fourth quarter holiday season, not because of Sonic's debut in summer. We're not talking about the actual release as much as the marketing dollars assigned to promote it. Every one of the other examples you gave were either pushed hard in holiday (as Sonic was) or were kept to summer in order to devote those marketing dollars to more important titles. For instance, do you really think the new Splinter Cell game is as important to Ubisoft as Assassin's Creed IV or Watchdogs on the PS4? We're talking marketing.

Hell, plus, if SoA still had reservations about Sonic's marketability, an initial Summer release would hedge their bets (no pun intended) before deciding how heavily to invest in the holiday season.

Obviously Sonic's initial reception directly led to the heavy marketing campaign that fall and bundling it with the Genesis.

How is he a liar, exactly? Embellisher? Yes. Overstating his importance sometimes? Yes. But a liar, I don't believe that. I think you should go back and read what he said about the Sega/Sony machine (and he's not the only one who has said it) and see when that happened.

Have any SOJ executives ever refuted what he (and Al Nilsen, Joe Miller, Scott Bayless, Mike Latham, Jim Huether, or any other SOA exec) has said? Have you seen any SOJ documents proving them wrong? I really doubt this is all some SOA conspiracy, 20 years after leaving the company, that all these people are covering up just to make themselves look good to the few nerds like us who even still care. When I see FACTS from SOJ, either through interviews or documents, then I'll decide if the former SOA people are lying.

Exactly. Honestly, while further confirmation would help, the bigger issue is getting more details on some of this stuff. (I still wish Miller had talked about the Imagesoft/Olaffson collaboration)

[Team Andromeda]

Out of curiosity, were there ever accounts from SoA staff regarding Naka being that tempermental

Yes there's some . But apparently Miyoshi-san is meant to be far worse and was a nightmare to work with on PSU.

So what? That says nothing about my comments.

Try its shows that also NEC played the High End game . Given the price and the mega limited production run the WonderMega was never meant to be nothing more than a high end version of the Mega Drive . If you wanted a cheap combo the Mega CD 2 and Mega Drive 2 more than did that and I think they both came in cheaper than a Duo.

Nope, not selective at all. I covered both my bases there

Yes you are , because a few years back I remember telling you how quickly SOJ was able to drop the price of the Saturn. So the high launch price wasn't really a factor .

What the hell are you talking about. You're not making any sense at all. He never lied about the Playstation or Nintendo's relationship with them.

He did . In EDGE and I think Play they was a great feature with the staff of the PS project and its beginnings. And never at any time was SONY looking for others to work with them , other than Nintendo . So unlike Tom makes out , they was never any chance of SEGA working with SONY .

since that was totally an American affair at the time (1993), and Olaffson probably knew little to nothing about Sony's PSX developments at the time.

Don't make me laugh . SONY Japan did all the R&D and in those days SONY Japan R&D for console projects was tiny and just 1 team - And that team was locked in contract to work with NCL.

After his time at Sega, in actual non-biased-by-employment-position candid interviews (like with Melf) he's been pretty consistent on all of his statements overall.

No he hasn't and it quite easy to pick wholes it what he says now...

Either SOJ lets its subsidiaries do what they think is best, or it's not. It can't be both.

Until you see them wasting loads of money and making total cock ups and then you have to move in .

Everyone points to SOA wasting money on too many things

And with bloody good reason . SEGA Multi Media studio a complete waste of money, SEGA 3D Glasses for the Mega Drive a total waste of money, SEGA sega activator again SEGA America wasting millions down the pan .

But not different than what most every other console maker has done since forever

Excpect the XBox . Which MS couldn't wait to drop .

No one said 75 million units was bad, but Sony isn't in this game to be third plac

Its not in 3rd place or soon not to be .

Winning a few months means squat when the year-end fiscal report still gives the year to the competition

MS were being slammed that's why you got a 3 year peace of mind . A move we'll never see again imo

I thought it was all about the here and now?

Yes that's why I said 5 to £10 is a big deal . There was bit of uproar a few months back when some in the press were making out that XBox 1 and PS4 games would be £10 dearer than current games .

And if everyone knew the Saturn was coming by late '93 and early '94, why would they buy a Sega CD?

Never going to happen . No way was either the Saturn going to be launched in the west in 1994, much less a Sonic game be ready in 1995 .

The examples you gave were of titles that were released in summer because their publishers had more important titles coming in holiday

What game was bigger to SEGA than Sonic or Sonic 2 in the Mega Drive days . What game is bigger to SONY this Christmas than The Last of Us ? . No game on the Wii ever came close to Mario Kart sales and when is Nintendo bringing out Mario Kart for the Wii U . I doubt there's many bigger games to EA than Madden. Contine with ever so slighty trying to change what you said 'NOBODY'

[kool kitty89]

Honestly, Summer release dates for major games makes plenty of sense, especially late Summer (August or September), and the same applies to console launches too.

Instead of focusing marketing/hype/etc all around a fall/holiday launch, you can have a more gradual buildup and stronger potential for viral marketing and retail browsing attraction and such. (ie people finding out about it word of mouth or window shopping -or rental, etc)
The viral marketing end is pretty important in some parts of the US, and pretty much all of Europe (and Japan).


Honestly, what makes less sense to me is major releases released in Spring or early summer (aside from late winter releases that simply missed December). In those cases, you may have a slightly stronger sales period at release, but you then have the product go through a major lull before rising again late in the year. Launching on a market upturn makes a lot more sense (ie late in Summer after the market bottoms out).

Hell, if Sega had pushed the Saturn's launch date up just slightly so it was only a few weeks ahead of the PSX launch, that would have made decent sense too. (hell, launching it on the Genesis's 6 year American launch anniversary might have been neat)

But some of the major releases Sega saw in Spring were a bit odd. Sonic 3 comes to mind in particular . . . why not hold off on it and build up hype in late Summer? (or, given the timing on S&K's completion, why not just make it one big awesome game with a marketing push to match -which would have been one among many potential 1994 market pushing options that would avoid the 32x )



Additionally, Summer releases of potentially major products also allow some testing of the waters and reading of consumer feedback immediately prior to the major sales season. (a rapid turnaround test market of sorts) Targeting a Summer launch date also gives more room for error with problems like development delays and/or manufacturing/distribution problems.



That said, blowing your budget on marketing focused around a Summer launch would be more questionable and negate many of the potential advantages. (you'd want to keep a lot in reserve to push increasingly hard later in the year)

[Melf]

He did . In EDGE and I think Play they was a great feature with the staff of the PS project and its beginnings. And never at any time was SONY looking for others to work with them , other than Nintendo . So unlike Tom makes out , they was never any chance of SEGA working with SONY .

That's really a stretch. That interview talks about the Nintendo deal because that was done publicly and everyone knows about it. What Kalinske details never went farther than him and Olafsson and maybe a few higher ups, and SOJ's board of directors. It's not common knowledge. Why would Kalinske lie so blatantly to me seven years ago (and NEVER be called out on it, mind you), and then do the same darn thing to TWO different outlets in 2013 (and STILL not be called out on it).

The interview never mentions it because it never got any farther than a few conversations between executives, hardly a contradiction of what Kalinske says. Furthermore, in one of those interviews, the one with MCV, they also talk with Steve Race, who was at Sega when the discussions happened and then moved on to head SCEA, who was RIGHT THERE WITH KALINSKE AT THIS YEAR'S E3, and he didn't refute him.

No he hasn't and it quite easy to pick wholes it what he says now...

No, he's been pretty consistent. And considering that he's given a whole THREE interviews since 1995, with two of those only coming in the last two months, I'd say he's been far from a blowhard who loves to toot his own horn.

Until you see them wasting loads of money and making total cock ups and then you have to move in .

You don't consider the Nomad a waste of money? Or Japan allocating resources and R&D for hardware it has no interest in? When you're about to launch new hardware into a three-way race, it seems like a total cock up to waste resources on hardware that won't even be released in your home region or that you have no intention to support at all.

And with bloody good reason . SEGA Multi Media studio a complete waste of money, SEGA 3D Glasses for the Mega Drive a total waste of money, SEGA sega activator again SEGA America wasting millions down the pan .

I don't think Sega Enterprises really considered those to be wastes of money. Everyone goes on about that like SOA was shoveling cash down the toilet. Yet Japan, which was incredibly conservative, was a complete failure with the Mega Drive. It's pretty ironic that the one's "wasting millions" are the ones actually making those millions to begin with.

And again, where was SOJ's great leadership while its subsidiaries emptied its checkbook? Maybe it was silent because it didn't consider those actions to be wastes of money in the first place. I would have expected Nakayama to go nuts about them if he had, much the way he went nuts over SOJ's incredible cock up of the Saturn hardware. Funny how there's reports of that, but no instances of him ever chastising SOA about the MM Studio or anything else during those build up years.

Excpect the XBox . Which MS couldn't wait to drop .

You're right. One example in more than a half dozen generations of hardware. I'm totally wrong. I guess Atari redesigning the 2600, Nintendo redesigning the NES, SNES, GBA, DS, 3DS; Sega's redesign of the Genesis, Sega CD, and Saturn; and every other console redesign doesn't count then.

Redesigns, like MS has done with the 360, are common and good business sense. You have a machine you now sell at a profit and has a huge library of games. Why NOT continue to support it? I suspect that MS did exactly that because it saw what a mistake it made with dropping the original Xbox so quickly.

Its not in 3rd place or soon not to be .

And it only took 6 years to get there. It must mean a lot to overtake second place this generation a whole three months before you release the next generation's hardware.

MS were being slammed that's why you got a 3 year peace of mind . A move we'll never see again imo

Again, where are you getting this info about MS "being slammed?" It took a beating in publicity, sure, but sales didn't suffer for more than a short dip, if at all.

Yes that's why I said 5 to £10 is a big deal . There was bit of uproar a few months back when some in the press were making out that XBox 1 and PS4 games would be £10 dearer than current games .

So, $5 for a cartridge game is enough to make no one buy the hardware that supports it, but $230 in 1993 was no obstacle to someone who wanted to play Sonic?

Never going to happen . No way was either the Saturn going to be launched in the west in 1994, much less a Sonic game be ready in 1995 .

Where did I say the Saturn was going to be released in 1994? You were the one that said that everyone knew it was coming by 1993. Again you're making counter arguments. On the one hand you argue that if price were a factor for playing Sonic on Sega CD, people wouldn't have bought a Saturn which was more expensive. And on the other, you're suggesting that everyone was anticipating the Saturn, which is why no one bought the 32X. The Sega CD was more expensive in 1993 (when Sonic CD came out) than the 32X was at launch, so if no one bought the $170 32X because the more expensive Saturn was coming, why would they spend $230 on a Sega CD?

What game was bigger to SEGA than Sonic or Sonic 2 in the Mega Drive days . I doubt there's many bigger games to EA than Madden. Contine with ever so slighty trying to change what you said 'NOBODY'

You make it sound like Sonic 2 and the Saturn are a decade removed from one another. We're talking three years, tops. Considering just how big Sonic was, why WOULDN'T you have a game ready for your new hardware?

No game on the Wii ever came close to Mario Kart sales and when is Nintendo bringing out Mario Kart for the Wii U .

Mario Kart Wii came out in April, not summer, because Nintendo had two major titles for holiday in 2008 (Animal Crossing and Wii Music [LOL]), and the Wii U games comes out in spring 2014, not summer. Know why? Most likely because Nintendo is releasing Wonderful 101 in September, Wii Party U in October, Super Mario World 3D in December. That's 3 major first party titles within four months, including the entire fourth quarter. Remember what I said about Nintendo spacing out its releases?

What game is bigger to SONY this Christmas than The Last of Us ? .

You know what's bigger this Christmas for Sony than Last of Us? The PS4. That's probably why the game was released in summer. It would drown against the PS4 this holiday, and it makes zero sense for Sony to pit its own products against each other for sales.

[Team Andromeda]

Why would Kalinske lie so blatantly to me seven years ago (and NEVER be called out on it, mind you), and then do the same darn thing to TWO different outlets in 2013 (and STILL not be called out on it).

He's talking out of his ass. SONY Japan did the Hardware development and in the early 90's there were a tiny team based on SONY Music HQ and only working on once console project and it was never ever offered to SEGA

No, he's been pretty consistent

He's changed his tune on Saturn, 32X and even Virtual Fighter .

You don't consider the Nomad a waste of money? Or Japan allocating resources and R&D for hardware it has no interest in

Yes . Letting the boneheads at SEGA America try to develope Hardware was a complete waste of time and money I would agree .

was a complete failure with the Mega Drive. It's pretty ironic that the one's "wasting millions" are the ones actually making those millions to begin with.

Seeing as the Mega Drive sold some 30 million units, I'll hardly call it a waste of money.

I would have expected Nakayama to go nuts about them if he had, much the way he went nuts over SOJ's incredible cock up of the Saturn hardware.

And which cock up was that ? . The Saturn still to this day enjoyed one of the best and most successful launches ever , until FF 7 it was a sales monster for SEGA in Japan. SOA/SOE totally cocked up both the 32X and Saturn.

You're right

And I was only on about the XBox.

And it only took 6 years to get there.

Yes and not only have they got there , SONY also won the BluRay war and now will make millions off that, and even money off MS use of the drive with every XBox 1 they sell . Better luck next time MS.

Again, where are you getting this info about MS "being slammed?

Sales were down, 360 image was mud and getting slammed on news , forums and mag's .

So, $5 for a cartridge game is enough to make no one buy the hardware that supports it

£5 to £10 per game is a big deal .

Where did I say the Saturn was going to be released in 1994?

? Early 1994 means nothing? . Again no hope of the Saturn coming to the west until 1995 and no hope of a true Sonic game coming until 1996 .

You make it sound like Sonic 2 and the Saturn are a decade removed from one another

No I'm not and don't try and turn it around . You said 'nobody' spends big in the summer or brings out the big games - I'll ask again name me a bigger game to SEGA than Sonic 2 on the Mega Drive they just isn't any

You know what's bigger this Christmas for Sony than Last of Us? The PS4.

You know I love you changing the goal posts and I'll have bet right now that no PS4 game this year, will sell anywhere near than of The Last of Us , maybe GT 6 on the PS3 but we'll see

It would drown against the PS4 this holiday, and it makes zero sense for Sony to pit its own products against each other for sales.

You mean like S&K for the Mega Drive just a few months before the 32X

Mario Kart Wii came out in April, not summer, because Nintendo had two major titles for holiday in 2008

So we want to play that game ? September is still UK summer time . Remind me again when sales monsters than when Halo 3 shipped , Halo reach shipped , What about Gears of War 3. Come to think of it I'm sure GT IV shipped in the Aprill too . Yep nobody bring out the big games in the summer and all wait to winter ...

[Melf]

He's talking out of his ass. SONY Japan did the Hardware development and in the early 90's there were a tiny team based on SONY Music HQ and only working on once console project and it was never ever offered to SEGA

And them working on hardware has what, exactly, to do with pitches being tossed about among their bosses in management? It's likely that the team you mention had no idea of what discussions were had among management. Hell, those teams often don't hear about decisions until the last minute, kind of like when STI was told it couldn't use the NIGHTS engine for Sonic Xtreme. None of them were at the board meeting where that was decided, you know.

You're making an incredible stretch with no evidence to back it up. Do you have any actual proof at all that shows Kalinske is lying?

He's changed his tune on Saturn, 32X and even Virtual Fighter .

You mean supporting everything when he was the face of the company and it was his job to sell those products to now being able to speak his mind because he doesn't work there anymore? That's hardly a shock at all. In regards to the Sega/Sony affair, bundling Sonic with the Genesis, and how he genuinely felt about the Saturn, he's been quite consistent.

Yes . Letting the boneheads at SEGA America try to develope Hardware was a complete waste of time and money I would agree .

That's not what I said at all. Funny thing is though, not one single piece of hardware was ever developed without Japan, so it's more responsible than anyone for their design flaws.

Seeing as the Mega Drive sold some 30 million units, I'll hardly call it a waste of money.

Thanks to SOA. The MD was a distant third in Japan (less than 10% of all sales were in Japan, versus more than half in the US), despite all its wisdom and conservative fiscal policies. Most of those 30 million units were sold by the boneheads who wasted millions.

And which cock up was that ? . The Saturn still to this day enjoyed one of the best and most successful launches ever , until FF 7 it was a sales monster for SEGA in Japan. SOA/SOE totally cocked up both the 32X and Saturn.

You don't remember when Nakayama went ballistic on his hardware development team because the Saturn's 3D was inferior to the Playstation's, causing them to rush to redesign its board in November of 1994, much too late to really fit into the design and causing a lot of the problems that both Sega and third party developers had with the machine? Wow, thank God the boneheads at SOA didn't develop it!

And I was only on about the XBox.

Me too. I think we actually agree here, and we just arrived via different routes.

Yes and not only have they got there , SONY also won the BluRay war and now will make millions off that, and even money off MS use of the drive with every XBox 1 they sell . Better luck next time MS.

The BluRay war was won years ago and it didn't affect 360 sales. If MS put one in the Xbone, it's because it's not considered an area of competition anymore. MS definitely has its work cut out for it, but the next generation is anyone's game. Sony spent this entire generation playing catch up, and while it may overtake MS, it'll be too late to really be of any consequence, because the whole game starts again with the Xbone and PS4.

Sales were down, 360 image was mud and getting slammed on news , forums and mag's .

What "forums and mags?" I've linked directly to sources, you've provided none.

£5 to £10 per game is a big deal .

So imagine $230 to play Sonic, especially when new and more expensive hardware has been announced.

Again no hope of the Saturn coming to the west until 1995 and no hope of a true Sonic game coming until 1996 .

The fact that the Saturn was coming west until 1995 would have given Sonic Team or any other developer at Sega time to have a Sonic game ready. That's my whole point on this issue. Moreover, your answer doesn't explain the fact that SOJ never made any attempt at releasing a Sonic game on Saturn at all. Whether it would have come out in '95 or '96, it should have come out, period. We got 4 Virtua Fighter games on Saturn, but no Sonic. And then when SOA tries to make a game (half-assed and way too late, true, but at least it did SOMETHING), SOJ denies it key code and sets the whole project back by months. Those are examples of SOJ only thinking of itself and not considering the big picture. In the end, that shortsightedness and selfishness bit it square in the ass.

No I'm not and don't try and turn it around . You said 'nobody' spends big in the summer or brings out the big games - I'll ask again name me a bigger game to SEGA than Sonic 2 on the Mega Drive they just isn't any

I've been talking about marketing budgets for over three pages, man. And you keep bringing up Sonic 2, which proves my point. I'm talking about when games get major marketing pushes, and how you can debate that the holiday season is more important than summer is beyond me. Why do you think console launches happen in the fall? Why do you think major title bundling happens mostly in the fourth quarter? Because that's when people spend the most money on games.

You know I love you changing the goal posts and I'll have bet right now that no PS4 game this year, will sell anywhere near than of The Last of Us , maybe GT 6 on the PS3 but we'll see

I'm not the one changing arguments when disproven. You honestly think that the Last of Us is more important sales-wise to Sony than the NEW HARDWARE ITS RELEASING IN NOVEMBER? Really? You think Sony execs are going to sit around in June, looking at their end-of-year fiscal results and say "well, the Xbone beat our new console in launch sales, but at least Last of Us sold well!" The PS4 is going to be Sony's priority this holiday and for the first half of next year. It's looking to sell hardware, and it will need most of its resources to push the machine and the launch line up successfully. To not have LoU be overlooked in that effort, it was released in summer. That was a GOOD move.

You mean like S&K for the Mega Drive just a few months before the 32X

Um, the 32X worked with the same hardware as S&K, so I doubt Sega saw them as competing against one another, expecially since there was no Sonic game on 32X. Sega wasn't going to go through another Sonic Spinball holiday, either. And coicidentally, both S&K and the 32X were released in the fourth quarter. You know, that holiday season no one cares about?

So we want to play that game ? September is still UK summer time . Remind me again when sales monsters than when Halo 3 shipped , Halo reach shipped , What about Gears of War 3. Come to think of it I'm sure GT IV shipped in the Aprill too . Yep nobody bring out the big games in the summer and all wait to winter ...

What game? The one where you ignore what I post and refute arguments I'm not even making? I've been talking about marketing pushes for three pages now, not shipping dates. I can see you don't even read what I post because I already answered your example about GTA IV. I even cited an article in that post to make the point.

I've enjoyed our debate, but if you're not going to read what I'm writing and at least provide some evidence to back your arguments, then we should maybe just agree to disagree because we're arguing in circles here.

[Team Andromeda]

And them working on hardware has what, exactly, to do with pitches being tossed about among their bosses in management

That they were only working on 1 project and that was for Nintendo . So sorry Tom... you never were offered or would have been able to be offered a SONY Chipset in the early 1990's .

You're making an incredible stretch with no evidence to back it up

Simple its taken from the Team that worked on the PS right from the start of project . I really can't be bothered to find the feature much less scan it . Only to say the team was tiny , they were based in SONY music HQ at the start didn't have much backing for the higher ups and after Nintendo kicked them SONY weren't going to work with anyone else but go it alone. So Tom can spin and lie all he's wants ...

not one single piece of hardware was ever developed without Japan

Too right. That what happens when you the paymasters .

Thanks to SOA. The MD was a distant third in Japan, despite all its wisdom and conservative fiscal policies.

Still sold 3 million units was never sold at a lost and made money on games development . SEGA Europe out did SOA/SOJ with the MS and SOA outdid SOJ/SOE with the DC. Who knows maybe with another console all of SEGA could get it right.

You don't remember when Nakayama went ballistic on his hardware development team because the Saturn's 3D was inferior to the Playstation's, causing them to rush to redesign its board in November of 199

Good old EDGE mag scans eh ? Yes everyone remembers SEGA Nakayama having a meeting with his Saturn team. That what happens , SONY went mad when they seen the Gameboy. Sometimes corps get caught out .

The fact that the Saturn was coming west until 1995 would have given Sonic Team or any other developer at Sega time to have a Sonic game ready

No it wouldn't . Sonic Team were busy on finishing Mega Drive projects and the best one could have hopped for a 3D Sonic for the Saturn would have been in 1996 (just like NiGHTS)

What "forums and mags?" I've linked directly to sources, you've provided none

Get Real . Half the forums are mag's aren't even around anymore .

So imagine $230 to play Sonic, especially when new and more expensive hardware has been announced.

Well compared to £399 to play Sonic its rather cheap .

The BluRay war was won years ago and it didn't affect 360 sales

What ???. The PS3 helped SONY win the format war over HD DVD and it will make millions off the back of BluRay . So in the end the PS3 project has done rather well for SONY in terms of sales and winning a format war.

And you keep bringing up Sonic 2, which proves my point

Can't find a Mega Drive game bigger than Sonic 2 ?. So you were wrong to say Nobody - That's the point .

You honestly think that the Last of Us is more important sales-wise to Sony than the NEW HARDWARE ITS RELEASING IN NOVEMBER

Yes otherwise SONY wouldn't be spending millions on PR , never mind that the time that a game sells over 4 million copies at full price on a single platform is good news to the people that made it .

It's looking to sell hardware, and it will need most of its resources to push the machine and the launch line up successfully

Yes I would agree . Which is why the 32X was such a stupid waste of time and the mistake which cost SEGA dear.

I've enjoyed our debate, but if you're not going to read what I'm writing

Really who said this

Yes, NIGHTS came out in summer, but what company put major marketing cash into a title in summer, the slowest retail time of year? None

None ? What about Sonic 2 for staters ? . So just don't try and move the goal posts

[Melf]

That they were only working on 1 project and that was for Nintendo . So sorry Tom... you never were offered or would have been able to be offered a SONY Chipset in the early 1990's .

First of all, Kalinske never said anyone was working on a console. He said the ideas was agreed on and pitched to SOJ's board of directors, who shot it down. In other words, it never got past management discussions. That's why no one worked on it.

Simple its taken from the Team that worked on the PS right from the start of project . I really can't be bothered to find the feature much less scan it . Only to say the team was tiny , they were based in SONY music HQ at the start didn't have much backing for the higher ups and after Nintendo kicked them SONY weren't going to work with anyone else but go it alone. So Tom can spin and lie all he's wants ...

You can't be bothered to source your argument?

Still sold 3 million units was never sold at a lost and made money on games development . SEGA Europe out did SOA/SOJ with the MS and SOA outdid SOJ/SOE with the DC. Who knows maybe with another console all of SEGA could get it right.

Europe sold more Mega Drive consoles than the U.S.? Where did you get that number? Everything I've seen shows NA selling more units than Japan and Europe combined.

Good old EDGE mag scans eh ? Yes everyone remembers SEGA Nakayama having a meeting with his Saturn team. That what happens , SONY went mad when they seen the Gameboy. Sometimes corps get caught out .

It seems you're the one moving the goal posts. If SOA did it, then it was a horrible business blunder. If SOJ did it, that kind of thing happens sometime. A blunder is a blunder, no matter who made it. SOA messed up royally, but so did SOJ, and considering that it was the Japanese who were in charge of everything, they are ultimately responsible for what happens to the company as a whole.

No it wouldn't . Sonic Team were busy on finishing Mega Drive projects and the best one could have hopped for a 3D Sonic for the Saturn would have been in 1996 (just like NiGHTS)

They didn't even TRY to work on a Saturn game, EVER. SOJ made zero attempts at bringing Sonic to the Saturn. That was just a stupid, stupid mistake. SOJ obviously saw that it was, because it did exactly the OPPOSITE with Sonic for the DC launch.

Get Real . Half the forums are mag's aren't even around anymore .

And yet I've sourced most of my arguments, sometimes with multiple links, and yet you've sourced nothing. Unless you provide actual factual evidence to back up your argument, you're just talking hearsay and speculation.

Well compared to £399 to play Sonic its rather cheap .

But a $5 difference in game price is enough to make people stay away from hardware? This argument makes no sense.

What ???. The PS3 helped SONY win the format war over HD DVD and it will make millions off the back of BluRay . So in the end the PS3 project has done rather well for SONY in terms of sales and winning a format war.

Yes, and it won that war YEARS AGO. MS cares little for that now, since it's including a BR drive in the Xbone. Even with that victory, it's taken Sony more than half a decade to catch up to MS, and it's done so right when the whole cycle resets.

Can't find a Mega Drive game bigger than Sonic 2 ?. So you were wrong to say Nobody - That's the point .

I wasn't wrong because I've been talking about marketing dollars. You're refuting a point I'm not even making.

Yes otherwise SONY wouldn't be spending millions on PR , never mind that the time that a game sells over 4 million copies at full price on a single platform is good news to the people that made it .

Ok, so LoU is more important to Sony this holiday than PS4 sales. Gotcha. *rolleyes*

Really who said this

Yes, NIGHTS came out in summer, but what company put major marketing cash into a title in summer, the slowest retail time of year? None

Dude, please actually read what I wrote. Here, I've highlighted it for you. Who said anything about releases? We're talking major marketing pushes. Companies reserve their major programs for the final quarter. If you honestly think that Last of Us will get a larger marketing push this holiday than the Playstation 4, then I really don't know what to tell you.

[Team Andromeda]

First of all, Kalinske never said anyone was working on a console

He spins and lies to make himself look good . The truth of the matter is/was SEGA was never offered access to a SONY chipset or proposed chipset .

You can't be bothered to source your argument

Why is it always me that got to scan things in ?.

If SOJ did it, that kind of thing happens sometime. A blunder is a blunder, no matter who made

Well looking over if Tom was right then SEGA would have known full that SONY was thinking of getting into the console game and SEGA wouldn't have been caught so off guard, like it was . Sometimes all corps get caught out .
I highy doubt MS figured the PS4 would be more powerful and have better Ram than the XBox 1 or come in at £80 cheaper . But we've seen MS make climb down after climb down and moves to try and get back with it .

It happens ....

Europe sold more Mega Drive consoles than the U.S.

MS= Master System

They didn't even TRY to work on a Saturn game

Sonic Team made NiGHTS and Burning Rangers you know.

OJ made zero attempts at bringing Sonic to the Saturn

No they just had project Sonic of which Sonic R, Sonic Jam were 2 parts .. Sadly Sonic Adv was moved to DC production

And yet I've sourced most of my arguments

Where ?

But a $5 difference in game price is enough to make people stay away from hardware

If i said that you'll have a point .

Yes, and it won that war YEARS AGO. MS cares little for that now, since it's including a BR drive in the Xbone

? MS will be paying SONY royalties and the fact is SONY thanks to the PS3 won the format war and will makes millions of the back of BluRay and also gets to sell 70 million plus PS3 . I think they're quite happy in the end myself.

I wasn't wrong because I've been talking about marketing dollars

No you said nobody . Only SEGA did with Sonic 2 and don't make out that Sonic 2uesday was massive spend by SEGA and where its 1st week sales were off the charts and all in the summer .

Ok, so LoU is more important to Sony this holiday than PS4 sales

Not what I said . We're in summer and right now Last Of Us is making millions and SONY is pushing it BIG and spending millions on it . So again nobody isn't right at all .

Dude, please actually read what I wrote

I have and for the last time . SEGA did with Sonic 2, Ubisoft is with Splinter Cell , Sony is with Lost Of Us , EA does with Madden , Microsoft has with Halo 3 . Hardly 'nobody'

[sheath]

Team Andromeda doesn't need facts, he just repeats himself until it is true.

[Melf]

He spins and lies to make himself look good . The truth of the matter is/was SEGA was never offered access to a SONY chipset or proposed chipset .

I have no doubt that he embellishes to make himself look good. That would definitely fit his personality in all the interviews I've read. However, I've seen nothing that proves he's lying, and there is no documentation or Sony executive - anything at all - that refutes what he says about this topic. And you're reading way more into it than what he said in the first place. He never said that there was anything in development or that Sega sought access to any chipset. He said that he and Olaf Olafsson talked about Sega and Sony joining to make a new console and that SOJ shot the idea down. That's it.

Why is it always me that got to scan things in ?.

You don't have to scan anything if it's already online. I haven't scanned a single thing. All my sources were already online.

Well looking over if Tom was right then SEGA would have known full that SONY was thinking of getting into the console game and SEGA wouldn't have been caught so off guard, like it was . Sometimes all corps get caught out .
I highy doubt MS figured the PS4 would be more powerful and have better Ram than the XBox 1 or come in at £80 cheaper . But we've seen MS make climb down after climb down and moves to try and get back with it .

But Sega had to have known that Sony was interested by 1993, and it certainly knew once the Nintendo deal went public. I think it has to do with what I mentioned about companies getting arrogant when they're on top. MS got arrogant and its competition caught it off guard. It's been backpedaling since April.

MS= Master System

Oh there's no doubt that the MS was most successful in Europe. I'm talking about the Genesis though.

Sonic Team made NiGHTS and Burning Rangers you know.

And both are wonderful games. They didn't do for the Saturn what a Sonic game might have done though. We'll probably never know if Sonic would have done for the Saturn what he did for the Genesis.

No they just had project Sonic of which Sonic R, Sonic Jam were 2 parts .. Sadly Sonic Adv was moved to DC production

Sonic R was done by Traveler's Tales. Sonic Jam was just a compilation, and the Sonic World parts seem almost like a middle finger to STI, as if to say "we had no intention of making a Sonic game, but if we did look how good it would have been."

Where ?

- In post #140, I cited two sources, one about marketing budgets and the importance of the 4th quarter, and the other being Nintendo Japan's own annual report for 2013 that stressed the importance of the holiday season.
- In post #144 I linked to an article that showed how the RROD caused 360 sales to only drop by less than half a million units. I also posted a link to an article about how the 360 overtook the Wii in sales in the UK after the RROD debacle.
- In post #148 I posted links to two different ads (one Toys 'R Us and one Sega commercial) that show how Saturn game prices ranged from $32 to $69, hardly a standard drop from cartridge prices. I also posted a link to an article that talks about how market analyst Michael Pachter suggested that GTA IV was pushed back from it October 2008 release in order to boost Take-Two's end-of-year financial report and avoid competition with triple A titles like Halo 3.
- In post #153 I linked to a documentary that explains how even though Sonic 1's release increased Sega's market share by around 5% at launch, it was the holiday bundle and push that gave Sega the market lead over Nintendo.
- In post #158 I linked to a post that had the entire Edge article on the making of the Playstation in regards to the Sega/Sony affair not being mentioned because it never got past discussions with upper management. I also linked to the interview that Kalinske and Steve Race gave with MCV in July.
- In post #160 I linked to a Next Gen magazine article on the Saturn's development.

So yeah, I supported my arguments.

? MS will be paying SONY royalties and the fact is SONY thanks to the PS3 won the format war and will makes millions of the back of BluRay and also gets to sell 70 million plus PS3 . I think they're quite happy in the end myself.

No one's denying that Sony one the DVD format war over MS. What I'm saying is that it had no effect on PS3 sales, because DESPITE winning that war, the PS3 has taken its entire lifetime to catch up to the 360 in sales (and I can imagine what PS3 sales would have been like the first 2 years if it hadn't had the BluRay drive to lean on). MS considered the DVD war to be over and done with years ago, otherwise it wouldn't be putting a BluRay drive in the Xbone.

No you said nobody . Only SEGA did with Sonic 2 and don't make out that Sonic 2uesday was massive spend by SEGA and where its 1st week sales were off the charts and all in the summer .

You're arguing semantics now? And you keep proving my point with Sonic 2. You do realize the game came out in late November, right? Deep in the fourth quarter and not summer?

Not what I said . We're in summer and right now Last Of Us is making millions and SONY is pushing it BIG and spending millions on it . So again nobody isn't right at all .

You're right; you didn't say that. You actually inferred that the last major first party release of this generation would sell more copies in 6 months than any game released for a new platform released a month before the year ends. Would that really surprise you? Why do you think LoU was released in summer IN THE FIRST PLACE? To give those new games on that new hardware some time to sell, that's why.

Think of it this way: How much marketing do you think LoU is going to get past September compared to the PS4? Where do you think most of Sony's marketing budget is going to go between September and January, to promote LoU or the PS4?

I have and for the last time . SEGA did with Sonic 2, Ubisoft is with Splinter Cell , Sony is with Lost Of Us , EA does with Madden , Microsoft has with Halo 3 . Hardly 'nobody'

I've answered most of this in the links you didn't read. I've posted them again for your convenience.

... and Madden comes out in summer because that's when the football preseason starts. It wouldn't make much sense to release it when the season has already begun. EA can't release it any other time of the year, even if it wants to.