The joint SEGA-SONY hardware system - Sega of America and Sony tried to team up

[Team Andromeda]

It made a few tweaks, including the cloud/sky parallax in Green Hill Zone

And that makes a world of difference *rolls eye's*

What? I didn't argue anything about that

We been there before and only after scans of Edge mags and the like did you change your tune on SOA being kept in the dark over the Saturn.

It's a fact that development tools didn't become available (outside Japan) until winter/spring of 1995

Total and utter rubbish . Looking over the fact that Bug came out in summer 1995 . SOA/SOE had development kits in early 1994 , SEGA Europe set up a new development studio and had 50 kits sent over from Japan in early 1994 and Teams like Core even had early access to them too . So don't come it on that one. Sure there were issues with not enough kits for 3rd parties and the kits being prone to crashing and what not , but SOA/SOE had kits early in

[retrospiel]

(random Sonic 3 & Knuckles speculations)

We do know for a fact that SOA pushed for a release of Sonic 3 in early 1994 against the advice of Sonic Team and Sega of Japan. I am not sure why this is still being debated.

[Melf]

Sorry that makes no sense has the XBox 1 and PS4 are just a matter of weeks away .

Sorry, I meant releasing the game in September, as opposed to a November or December launch. Since both new consoles are coming in November, an earlier release makes sense. The point is that both GTA games were moved from their originally targeted release dates, probably either to give them little competition or to boost Take-Two's financial reports. Either one is a good move.

For the SEGA range of games. But I would put to you in almost every case a corps spends the most on pushing 'a game' in the window just before and just after that game is relesed to get the best possible sales at the full retail price

I seriously doubt that, unless those companies have other triple A titles coming that holiday season (as I noted in almost every one of the examples you gave). Then, it would HAVE to push the game in summer, since it would otherwise compete with other games on that company's own release list. I'll use your example of the Last of Us again. Sony really had no choice but to release it in summer, since it would have been competing with the PS4 launch in the 4th quarter. Sony undoubtedly wants to focus its efforts on the new hardware, so releasing the game earlier gives it time to shine without the competition. Again, that's a smart move.

[sheath]

How often has parallaxscroll actually been involved in this thread? Is anybody else aware of his history of cross-posting controversial topics and then simply instigating more responses that never result in anything? So far this thread is one of his most successful ever that also fails to notice his role in the resulting shit storm.

[kool kitty89]

We do know for a fact that SOA pushed for a release of Sonic 3 in early 1994 against the advice of Sonic Team and Sega of Japan. I am not sure why this is still being debated.

That wasn't an SoJ vs SoA argument there, just a general commentary on it. That and a general question as to why they thought it was a good idea to push it out so early. (even if they wanted to have it as 2 carts, keeping the releases closer together and tied in with seamless chained marketing hype between the 2 releases and the holiday season would have made much more sense)

That, and again, it could have been one area to exploit on the market in leu of the 32x. (ie filling one of the major roles the 32x was intended for -short term PR and revenue boosting)


On a separate note, was it SoA or SoJ (or both) that was against doing a 4MB release with Sonic 3?

We been there before and only after scans of Edge mags and the like did you change your tune on SOA being kept in the dark over the Saturn.

You're not reading my posts . . . and not quoting the pertinent parts either.

Please show me where Edge mentions the date when Sega of America received Saturn fully detailed Saturn documentation and development hardware.

Also show me that SoA released Saturn dev manules/SDKs prior to early 1994.


THOSE are my points.

SoA should have gotten Saturn development hardware and docs together sooner, and part of that would be pushing SoJ to provide the raw materials earlier. (they did seem to have done that with the Sega CD, getting boardboard prototype dev systems prior to the Japanese launch of the MCD in 1991 -per Scott Bayless's interview on Sega-16)

Total and utter rubbish . Looking over the fact that Bug came out in summer 1995 . SOA/SOE had development kits in early 1994 , SEGA Europe set up a new development studio and had 50 kits sent over from Japan in early 1994 and Teams like Core even had early access to them too . So don't come it on that one. Sure there were issues with not enough kits for 3rd parties and the kits being prone to crashing and what not , but SOA/SOE had kits early in

What proof of this do you have. The actual dates on the earliest english dev materials say otherwise. (or at least the last time Chilly Willy dug them up that was the case)

[kool kitty89]

On the Sega Saturn development tools thing:

The earliest manuals I have are from April 94. The earliest SDK I have is from April 95, but if you look at some of the examples, the oldest files are from April 94. So I think the earliest stuff is all April 94, but very little of the Sega libs were available at that time, just manuals and includes for the hardware (the oldest file I can find is machine.h from April 94). All the various hardware includes for things like CDC and DMA and the like all vary from August 94 to December 94. The oldest Sega lib files I can fine date from August 21, 1994, so I'd guess that was probably the very first SDK in Japan.

So guessing based on available info... the hardware was good enough for devs in April 94, and the first SDK came along in August 94 (probably in Japan). It looks like US devkits came along in April 95. Is it any wonder there was so few titles for the Saturn at launch? I'm amazed there were any at all!

[Team Andromeda]

Also show me that SoA released Saturn dev manules/SDKs prior to early 1994.

?. I'm on about 1994 you and some of the rest here are the ones that like to make out kits weren't set out until 1995

Anyway here you go from EDGE JULY '1994'





Oh here's an interview with the Bug Team ..






Now you've all over the shop with the Saturn kool kitty and unlike the myths you and some here like to make out . SOA knew full well of the Saturn, SEGA West had development tools in 1994 END OF LINE

[Team Andromeda]

Sony really had no choice but to release it in summer, since it would have been competing with the PS4 launch in the 4th

Not really . When are SONY launching GT 6 and Beyond 2 souls ? GT is huge and a real AAA game for SONY.

[Melf]

Exactly, and had Sony released Last of Us alongside those games, it would have had to compete with multiple high mark titles, as well as with new hardware. Sales would have been affected. So, it released the game in summer, where it enjoyed a reasonable window of low competition from other first party products. That's what I said about spreading software out during the year. How many major titles did Sony have planned for 2013 overall? It can't release them all at one time, so they're spread out. The PS4 coming in November only makes that more prevalent.

[Team Andromeda]

That's what I said about spreading software out during the year.

That isn't quite what you said.

[kool kitty89]

TA, if you noticed, I already corrected myself with Chilly's quote. I'd lost some of the original context on that, and it was the actual SDK that arrived in April 1995, but there were more primitive development resources (including the first manuals) available prior to that. (and there's the indication that the Japanese SDK arrived in mid 1994)
See Chilly's quote above.

Anyway, thanks for the magazine scans, those are interesting in any case.

[Barone]

I think that first point that defunct games get's all over is anachronistic. At the time Kalinske said the 32X would outsell the next gen consoles it was totally foreseeable but conditional on sticking with the 16-bit platforms for another year or so.

How come?
It's pretty clear to me that the 32X would NEVER be as successful as Kalinske thought, even with full Sega support during three years or something... 3D was the next big thing and the 32X hardware couldn't deliver it properly IMO.
Whoever was responsible for the hardware design killed any chance of the system outselling the PS1 when it didn't include proper dedicated hardware to perform textured 3D stuff at a decent frame rate.
Soundwise it would also have a very hard time at the Dolby Surround land IMO.

Yes, the 32X failed to live up to expectations because it was cancelled too early.

Do you really believe it's simple as that?

I still say that no matter how you slice it, there's no net long-term benefit over releasing 32x compared to not (opportunity costs not worth it). That, and if they WERE going to release such an add-on (in the cost/complexity level ofhardware the 32x was), they could have made it a lot more useful for what it was. (again the all CPU-render approach was REALLY cost ineffective, and with short development time nixing decent new acceleration hardware, adapting stuff from other designs would have been the main option -and VDP1 fits almost perfectly into the 32x as-is)


Anyway that's all moot after they released it though, but had they stayed the course with the 32x (so to speak), I don't think outselling the next-gen consoles (in the short run) was an unreasonable goal.
As it was they outsold the Jaguar and 3DO (month to month) in the short time the 32x was at high priority, and there's a good chance it could have outstripped the Saturn and PSX hardware/software sales in 1995 as well if Sega pushed it.
By 1996 I don't think there's any way around it falling out of favor though. (stillpotentially decent sales, but declining as the real next gen systems took over)

This.
But IMO the Jaguar had a far better chance to succeed than the 32X, considering *only* their hardware design, retail prices and the release dates. The thing is that the Jaguar did not have a "serious" release and marketing campaign like the 32X had, given the creepy resources and brand recognition that Atari had at the time.

[Melf]

That isn't quite what you said.

I don't see how you understood otherwise. I've said the same thing in almost a half dozen posts already, even linking to sources to support the point.

[Da_Shocker]

@Barone the 32X was meant to be cheap,cheap and more and cheap. Adding dedicated 3D hardware would've driven the price up. I think had the 32X been 99.99 and 159.99 with a game it could've sold more units on a consistent basis.

[sheath]

How come?
It's pretty clear to me that the 32X would NEVER be as successful as Kalinske thought, even with full Sega support during three years or something... 3D was the next big thing and the 32X hardware couldn't deliver it properly IMO.
Whoever was responsible for the hardware design killed any chance of the system outselling the PS1 when it didn't include proper dedicated hardware to perform textured 3D stuff at a decent frame rate.
Soundwise it would also have a very hard time at the Dolby Surround land IMO.

For Kalinske's part, I think he did exactly what was needed to make the 32X have any chance at that level of success. Keep in mind that we are still confused as to whether the Saturn or Sega CD sold better, a full console by Sega or a Genesis add-on with the same medium and most of the same software development challenges. If Kalinske talked down the 32X or any Genesis add-on in any way he would have instantly shot down any sales potential.

So, the issue with 32X was to promote its actual capabilities without exaggerating them and its price point. It really is that simple. It is a fact that the 32X, along with the 3DO and Jaguar, never had a chance at overtaking the PS1 and Saturn in true hardware capabilities. That is the nature of technology. It is also a fact that the 32X could have very easily provided complete gameplay experiences with subjective concessions with the next generation.

People to this day swear that SNES SFX-2 Doom is the best home version ever. Marketing takes point, technology is somewhere behind gameplay and proper support for game development.