Sellers of disc-based games on eBay suck.

[Ninsega]

If it works perfectly for me, it's going to work perfectly for you. CD's don't care who's using them, they just store data after all.

I'd probably list it as a used copy in fair to average condition, which is accurate.

But you wouldn't point out that there are pinholes on the important side of the disc? Thanks for being an example of one of the douches in that RF Generation article. You'd probably cuss out the buyer and tell him that he's wrong. I'll make sure to never buy from you.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

But you wouldn't point out that there are pinholes on the important side of the disc? Thanks for being an example of one of the douches in that RF Generation article. You'd probably cuss out the buyer and tell him that he's wrong. I'll make sure to never buy from you.

That would probably be covered under the "Used in fair to average condition". The pinholes on the top of the disc have no ill effect on the game whatsoever. Why bother mentioning it specifically and get crazy people who think it means the game is a coaster? If the top damage actually caused a problem then I'd mention it.

Finally, your Megaman X4 game was a previous BlockBuster rental. You should have connected the dots and realized that disc and probably been to hell and back.

The seller didn't advertise it as flawless mint condition, he advertised it a great condition, and honestly for a rental that looks to be about accurate. I don't see any flaws in the auction pictures, but it's definitely not mint. Case damage can happen in shipping, and there's very little control you can have over that. I recently had a copy of Virtua Fighter Remix arrive damaged from a seller on this forum, and he put it in a box with plenty of cushioning and wrapping. The reality of the situation is shit happens, they don't call USPS United States Parcel Smashers for nothing you know.

[sheath]

That's just bull right there Trekkies. A top scratched game shouldn't be sold as anything other than unacceptably damaged goods. It should be clearly pointed out that there is a scratch through the data layer, which DOES mean that something isn't going to work right on real hardware. I have a Sonic Jam complete copy with a pinhole top scratch, all of the games work, but the Sonic Mega CD video freezes. Something like that will happen with any top scratched game and the seller should be held responsible.

Bottom scratches can be carefully polished off in most cases, and should be mentioned as well, but they are nowhere near as permanent as top scratches are.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

That's just bull right there Trekkies. A top scratched game shouldn't be sold as anything other than unacceptably damaged goods. It should be clearly pointed out that there is a scratch through the data layer, which DOES mean that something isn't going to work right on real hardware. I have a Sonic Jam complete copy with a pinhole top scratch, all of the games work, but the Sonic Mega CD video freezes. Something like that will happen with any top scratched game and the seller should be held responsible.

Bottom scratches can be carefully polished off in most cases, and should be mentioned as well, but they are nowhere near as permanent as top scratches are.

Yes, top damage can cause damage to the data, I'm not denying that. What I'm saying is when all data is there and accounted for, the pin hole specs obviously aren't causing any harm to the data, and in that case the disc isn't unacceptably damaged. It's just been used.

Here's a test for your Sonic Jam disc. Are there any scratches on the underside? Can you copy the Sonic CD FMVs off onto your computer and play them? Do they work ok being read off the disc and played using SSF? Can you compare the data at the byte level in a Hex Editor and see if any data is missing or damaged? The answers to those questions will tell you if it's truly top damage that's causing that FMV to freeze. If it's top damage, your PC shouldn't be able to read it either, as the data flat out isn't there.

A CD is a CD, if data is truly missing it's not going to magically reappear when read on your PC and then magically disappear when your Saturn tries to read it. It's either there or it's not there. There's no gray area here.

[sheath]

No, you're doing the whole have to be right thing again Trekkies. On topic here we are complaining that sellers don't even check for top scratches, which the OP's link mistook for "disk rot". We can barely expect the average ebay seller to even hold the disk up to a light and look for light coming through. We are definitely not going to have people comparing data in a Hex editor any time soon.

The seller should consider the disk damaged and sell it as such if it is top scratched, that is unless they want to do a bit by bit comparison of the disk with another image and sell it as "guaranteed to work" or some such. The top scratch should still be in the description even in that case. Bottom scratching is generally cosmetic and should land the product quality in the "Acceptable" or "Good" category and no higher. Anything described as "Very Good" or "Like New" should have only minor shelf/usage wear to none at all respectively.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

No, you're doing the whole have to be right thing again Trekkies.

And you're not? This is such a stupid silly retort. The same thing can be said about anyone posting in this kind of topic. It's called debating an issue. If you don't like it then don't participate. It's that simple.

Just as you guys are flipping out over possible sellers selling you fully functioning discs with pinholes for the going market rate, I can see a very likely and worse problem arising from putting so much emphasis on this issue. What's to stop people from going "My copy of Megaman X4 has no pinholes, so it's obviously worth at least 2x the going market rate!" People already do that for sealed games, games with spinecards, inserts, fliers, etc. What's to stop them from doing it for something like this? I'd say that's a worse issue in the grand scheme of things rather than buying a fully functional used copy of a game that has some nicks in the top layer.

[Bibin]

While your pinhole may have caused no problems yet, the pinhole's expansion *is* a real thing, as once the layer has been broken like that it does not take much to get wider over time, which many (including myself) have seen happen. You can prevent this by taking extremely good care of it, but with a hole like that even seemingly harmless actions like sliding it into a CD case sleeve can potentially etch more away from the edge of the hole.

I have to agree with Ninsega and the point of the thread in that a seller of a game disc should be as explicit as possible about even seemingly inconsequential defects on a disc, as discs are such a fragile and silly medium. Honestly, it should be standard for a seller to just take a backlit photo of the disc like in the example he linked to.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

It's not just one pinhole in the disc. I can count at least 20 or more pin holes. And I've kept an eye on it over the years, no holes have appeared to have expanded, and there aren't any new ones appearing either. I do agree when it's severe top damage that impacts the data the seller should mention it, but if there's no impact on the data I don't see why listing it as a used copy in fair or average condition wouldn't be adequate. Fair or Average to me means you can expect scratches, scuffs, possibly some dings in the top layer, but none of which impact the way the game plays. That to me seems to be a fair way to describe it. Instead, you guys want it listed as "Damaged broken disc, sold AS-IS." When that's not really the case at all. Damaged or Broken goods would mean the game flat out doesn't play or has severe issues trying to play.

Sorry but part of buying things on ebay also relies on using your head when you look at an auction. If you see a former rental copy of a disc game up for auction, you should expect some possible top damage. Being a rental you know that disc has seen better days and has literally been to hell and back. However being a rental it also means that the case could be in pristine condition since rarely those get put out. So if I see a former rental copy listed in Great Condition, I automatically assume most of that is coming from the case, not the disc. This is part of the reason why I flat out don't buy former rental games.

One thing I'd like to mention is I've noticed this issue only on my US Games with screen printed labels. It's mostly on the Capcom ones, though I wouldn't be surprised if it's on the other US games that have screen printed labels. I'm curious if it's actual data layer damage or if it's just the screen printing flaking off and allowing more light shine through than before.

[Thunderblaze16]

No, you're doing the whole have to be right thing again Trekkies. On topic here we are complaining that sellers don't even check for top scratches, which the OP's link mistook for "disk rot". We can barely expect the average ebay seller to even hold the disk up to a light and look for light coming through. We are definitely not going to have people comparing data in a Hex editor any time soon.

The seller should consider the disk damaged and sell it as such if it is top scratched, that is unless they want to do a bit by bit comparison of the disk with another image and sell it as "guaranteed to work" or some such. The top scratch should still be in the description even in that case. Bottom scratching is generally cosmetic and should land the product quality in the "Acceptable" or "Good" category and no higher. Anything described as "Very Good" or "Like New" should have only minor shelf/usage wear to none at all respectively.

lol

[Blades]

Dear god. Pinholes.

[Ninsega]

Dear god. Pinholes.

Of potentially integral data, which is now permanently missing.

And I love how Trekkie thinks listing the disc on eBay as used/worn/whatever will automatically save his ass. Newsflash: it won't. As soon as you get that meticulous person who checks what they receive in the mail thoroughly and notices a bunch of holes in the data layers, your ass will be handed to you by eBay's Buyer Protection if you deny a return.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Of potentially integral data, which is now permanently missing.

I highlighted the important part for you. It's just as likely that the pin hole is not in a part where data is stored, or isn't even damaging the Data Layer and is just damaging the label layer. The Aluminum in discs is very thin and it's even possible to see through it in proper lighting. It's just as possible that a nick in the label layer that doesn't go through to the data layer is enough to let more light through making it look like a pin hole. Though the only way to tell that for sure is to look at the holes through a microscope.

However, here is a section of my Megaman 8 disc:



As you can see I wasn't joking about it having lots of pinholes. The copy was obviously heavily used when I bought it for $20 back in 2007. The case has no cracks but is covered in scuffs. And it has quite a few nicks in the top layer. However I can retrieve all the data from the disc and can verify none of it is missing. The disc is also pretty heavily scratched on the underside, which is probably why the FMV skips on the Saturn but not on my PC.

If I sold it on ebay (which I have no intention of doing), I'd probably list it as heavily used, fair condition, with fair being one step above poor/junk. In my scale of quality I'd also mention that fair includes heavily scratched and possible nicks in the top layer that don't affect gameplay.

And I love how Trekkie thinks listing the disc on eBay as used/worn/whatever will automatically save his ass. Newsflash: it won't. As soon as you get that meticulous person who checks what they receive in the mail thoroughly and notices a bunch of holes in the data layers, your ass will be handed to you by eBay's Buyer Protection if you deny a return.

Good thing I don't sell on ebay then.

[Ninsega]

Good thing I buy from companies that side with the customer.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Good thing I buy from companies that side with the customer.

Well if the listing is described as I stated above with Fair meaning "heavily used with heavy scratches on the bottom and possible pinholes in the top layer, yet works fine" I don't think ebay would side with you if you decided to throw a fit about said pinholes without testing the game to see if it works first.

Honestly when you look at the amount of specs on my MM8 disc and consider the fact the disc plays fine and all data is accounted for you can really only come to two conclusions:

1) These pinholes aren't as damaging as we think they are. The error correction features of CDs really do work.

2) My Disc is a magical Jesus like disc that even though it should be dead, resurrects itself to walk among us and spread joy and happiness to any Saturn it touches.

I'm more inclined to lean towards the former rather than the latter.

[Metalwario64]

I don't think ebay would side with you if you decided to throw a fit about said pinholes without testing the game to see if it works first.

From what I've heard, that's exactly what eBay does unfortunately...

Ninsega is only contributing to that problem. :/