PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

[Yharnamresident]

Ridge Racer V (2000, PS2)


Here it is, my favourite PS2 racing game. This was released 20 years ago today, on March 4, 2000. This was a lot of peoples' first look at PS2 graphics. Although this game surpassed Tokyo Xtreme Racer as the best looking console racing game, it was surpassed again by Dreamcast racing games like Test Drive Le Mans. But for a while this was best looking racing game ever. And honestly I feel with this game, people focused too much on the horrible presentation(low-res and jaggies) and not what the game actually accomplished(high polycounts and tons of special effects).



This scene was a lot of peoples' first view of PS2 graphics.



Gloss map on the car.



The iconic environment map building.



And of course, the iconic sawtooth jaggies.



This game has phenomenal particle effects.



And phenomenal lighting.



It loves atmospheric fog like Dreamcast games.



Complex roadside detail.



This game has a pretty big draw distance.



Lots of geometry on-screen.



This game might've had some Tokyo Xtreme Racer influence with the high-contrast building lights at night.


Overall this game graphically has 3 things going for it:

1. high polycounts(especially in roadside detail)
2. particle effects
3. lighting

Now this game is definitely not a complete package, which is why I feel Test Drive Le Mans surpassed it. The crappy textures(which the Dreamcast had already far surpassed), low game resolution and jaggies are very evident flaws.

[Yharnamresident]

Ridge Racer V (2000, PS2) (Continued)

So in terms of polygons, a lot of you know this game has polycounts available online by trustworthy sources like IGN. https://ca.ign.com/articles/2000/07/14/dolphin-the-answers-you-want

By comparison, developers have told us that Namco's Ridge Racer V for PlayStation2 is realistically pushing approximately 35,000 polygons at 60 frames per second, or just over two million polygons per second.

However after doing my own research, I will be bumping this up to 2.2 million PPS. It does run at 2.1 million PPS for a couple sections, but most of the time its slightly higher. Now this 2.2 million PPS isn't a huge leap over Dreamcast with games like Pen Pen Triicelon running at 1.2 million PPS, but it still surpassed it and is running at about 80% of the Dreamcast polygon capabilities. Overall this game seems to hover between 1.8-2.6 million PPS.

Average: 2.2 million polygons per second





A couple low-LOD cars on screen. 2.25 million PPS



The player's car is 7500 polygons.




In a tunnel. As you can see the roadside detail is what gives this game most of its polygons. 1.4 million PPS



Player car is same 7500 polygons.



Rival car is 3000 polygons.




Even with no rival cars on screen, this game will still hit 2.15 million PPS.




This guy is 12,000 polygons.




Even in Freerun, with lots of roadside detail, this game will 2.5 million PPS.



Car is the same 7250 polygons in Freerun.




Outskirts with high-LOD rival. 1.5 million PPS



Car is same as in Freerun at 7250 polygons.



Under the right circumstances, a rival car will switch to its highest LOD at 7500 polygons.




A normal scene with a normal LOD rival and a couple low-LOD rivals. 1.95 million PPS



With a different player car, its now 7000 polygons.



Normal LOD rival car is 2500 polygons.



Another normal scene. 2.05 million PPS



Different player car is same 7000 polygons.


Similar to my screenshots of Dreamcast games, this game doesn't look quite as good when I play it in DirectX 9 for polygon captures. Also I will try figuring out why the polygons are so wide.

[SegaAMD]

American Tekken Tag with AA is next?

well, those are the games that make up the first generation of games for PS2, from the launch on March 4, 2000 to June 2001; Ridge Race 5, Tekken Tag no AA, Dark Cloud, Unreal Tournament, X-squad, armored core 2, Ready to Rumble Round 2, Eternal Ring, Evergrace, Dynasty Warriors 2, Dead or alive 2, Dead or alive 2 Hardcore, ssx, street fighter ex3, Smuggler Run, wild wild racing, Orphen, Madden 2001, Midnight club, Summoner, silent scope. Donald Duck, The Bouncer, onimusha (jan 2001) Red Faction, Klonoa 2, Legacy of Kain, 4x4 evolution.

these are the ones that make up the second generation of PS2 games from June 2001 to June 2002.

Metal Gears Solid 2, GTA3, Gran Turismo 3, Burnout 1, Jak and Daxter, Final Fantasy X, Ico, Silent Hill 2, Devil May Cry, Tony Hawk 3, Baldur gate Dark Alliance, Twisted Metal Black, Max payne, Half life, 007 Agent Under Fire, Nascar Thunder 2002, Crash Bandicoot Wrath Cortex.

my first contact with PS2 was late because it was a prohibitive console, from the first day I saw it I knew it was a machine superior to Dreamcast, only later did they show me that Dreamcast could make better textures, but honestly if nobody talks to me I wouldn't have noticed, I played in the end of 2002 Street Fighter Ex3 and GTA 3 in that period I had already played many games on Dreamcast including shenmue, sonic adventure, crazy taxi.

[Cloofoofoo]

Ridge Racer V (2000, PS2) (Continued)

So in terms of polygons, a lot of you know this game has polycounts available online by trustworthy sources like IGN. https://ca.ign.com/articles/2000/07/14/dolphin-the-answers-you-want



However after doing my own research, I will be bumping this up to 2.2 million PPS. It does run at 2.1 million PPS for a couple sections, but most of the time its slightly higher. Now this 2.2 million PPS isn't a huge leap over Dreamcast with games like Pen Pen Triicelon running at 1.2 million PPS, but it still surpassed it and is running at about 80% of the Dreamcast polygon capabilities. Overall this game seems to hover between 1.8-2.6 million PPS.

Average: 2.2 million polygons per second





A couple low-LOD cars on screen. 2.25 million PPS



The player's car is 7500 polygons.




In a tunnel. As you can see the roadside detail is what gives this game most of its polygons. 1.4 million PPS



Player car is same 7500 polygons.



Rival car is 3000 polygons.




Even with no rival cars on screen, this game will still hit 2.15 million PPS.




This guy is 12,000 polygons.




Even in Freerun, with lots of roadside detail, this game will 2.5 million PPS.



Car is the same 7250 polygons in Freerun.




Outskirts with high-LOD rival. 1.5 million PPS



Car is same as in Freerun at 7250 polygons.



Under the right circumstances, a rival car will switch to its highest LOD at 7500 polygons.




A normal scene with a normal LOD rival and a couple low-LOD rivals. 1.95 million PPS



With a different player car, its now 7000 polygons.



Normal LOD rival car is 2500 polygons.



Another normal scene. 2.05 million PPS



Different player car is same 7000 polygons.


Similar to my screenshots of Dreamcast games, this game doesn't look quite as good when I play it in DirectX 9 for polygon captures. Also I will try figuring out why the polygons are so wide.

Those car numbers are for multi pass for the environment map right? Or I wonder if they literally duplicated the chassis mesh and made it transparent then used environment mapping. Only 1 game on the DC used a mesh duplicate to fake reflection, that was super run about and since it had a damage model for the cars it obvious when the car poked through the reflection mesh.

You should check out the bouncer.it runs totally with in the DC reach of polygon count, around 20k to 30k at 60 fpa. I was so intrigued by that I checked out the models off the disc. The playable character \boss range from 2.5k to 3k and the enemies from 1k to 2k. Basically extremely good modeling and very nice texture use( despite pixelation, and low polygon count) . I think it was a 1st gen game.

[Yharnamresident]

American Tekken Tag with AA is next?

well, those are the games that make up the first generation of games for PS2, from the launch on March 4, 2000 to June 2001; Ridge Race 5, Tekken Tag no AA, Dark Cloud, Unreal Tournament, X-squad, armored core 2, Ready to Rumble Round 2, Eternal Ring, Evergrace, Dynasty Warriors 2, Dead or alive 2, Dead or alive 2 Hardcore, ssx, street fighter ex3, Smuggler Run, wild wild racing, Orphen, Madden 2001, Midnight club, Summoner, silent scope. Donald Duck, The Bouncer, onimusha (jan 2001) Red Faction, Klonoa 2, Legacy of Kain, 4x4 evolution.

these are the ones that make up the second generation of PS2 games from June 2001 to June 2002.

Metal Gears Solid 2, GTA3, Gran Turismo 3, Burnout 1, Jak and Daxter, Final Fantasy X, Ico, Silent Hill 2, Devil May Cry, Tony Hawk 3, Baldur gate Dark Alliance, Twisted Metal Black, Max payne, Half life, 007 Agent Under Fire, Nascar Thunder 2002, Crash Bandicoot Wrath Cortex.

my first contact with PS2 was late because it was a prohibitive console, from the first day I saw it I knew it was a machine superior to Dreamcast, only later did they show me that Dreamcast could make better textures, but honestly if nobody talks to me I wouldn't have noticed, I played in the end of 2002 Street Fighter Ex3 and GTA 3 in that period I had already played many games on Dreamcast including shenmue, sonic adventure, crazy taxi.

Theres much more than that. Let me help you out.

Go to these pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tation_2_games
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._2_games_(L-Z)

Click on the text that says "First released". I mean it, literally click the text.


Also this is how I personally do it.

Dreamcast:
-very early games (1998 to 1st half of 1999)
-early games (2nd half of 1999 to 1st half of 2002)
-mid games (2nd half of 2002 to late 2003)
-late games (2004 to 2006)

Of course the Dreamcast was discontinued before it even entered the mid games, but that doesn't change this.

PS2:
-very early games (March 2000 to October 2000)
-early games (October 2000 to late 2002)
-mid games (2003)
-late games (2004 to 2007)


I was playing Street Fighter EX3 last night and was impressed. The reviews for the game say "the Dreamcast could've easily done this" yes thats true, but does that mean its a bad looking game? Of course not.

Also I was looking at Sonic Adventure last month. Despite the development history and release date of this game, it is technically a 6th gen game. In terms of PPS it hovers in the late 100,000s with insane amounts of transparencies, gloss maps and environment maps.

Those car numbers are for multi pass for the environment map right? Or I wonder if they literally duplicated the chassis mesh and made it transparent then used environment mapping. Only 1 game on the DC used a mesh duplicate to fake reflection, that was super run about and since it had a damage model for the cars it obvious when the car poked through the reflection mesh.

You should check out the bouncer.it runs totally with in the DC reach of polygon count, around 20k to 30k at 60 fpa. I was so intrigued by that I checked out the models off the disc. The playable character \boss range from 2.5k to 3k and the enemies from 1k to 2k. Basically extremely good modeling and very nice texture use( despite pixelation, and low polygon count) . I think it was a 1st gen game.

I did some research, yes you are right. The cars have another layer of polygons in some spots.






Heres the player car.



The dotted lines means 2 layers of polygons.



But you don't see it in places like this.






A normal LOD rival.



A normal LOD rival also has an environment map. So when a rival car switches to its highest LOD of 7000-7500 polygons, it is an actual increase in geometry.


Also I haven't even looked at a screenshot of The Bouncer but I will do it tonight.

[Yharnamresident]

So Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2 does have a 16:9 mode but there probably wasn't many people who figured out how to use it.










Also heres the PS1 version of Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2. Quite a bit different than the Dreamcast version I'd say:

[Yharnamresident]

the games I mentioned I measured using Dolphin 4.0 and I found it very accurate, Sonic Adventure 2 is very close to the Dreamcast version and Burnout 2 is very close to the PS2 version. the others should also follow the same trend remembering if the PS2 does less poly it's because the gpu is doing other effects, since the PS2 version is superior in most of these multiplats.

Note that they are multiplat games if the GCN version was above 100k per frame in any of them, then the PS2 version will float in the same league.

Well as someone whos basically figured out PS2 emulation, when I get the opportunity I'll confirm some of these numbers with you.

[Cloofoofoo]

Well as someone whos basically figured out PS2 emulation, when I get the opportunity I'll confirm some of these numbers with you.

Some games dont play nice with the method youre using though, resident evil 4 will always double its polygon count with no way to cut it down when using extract method. Which is why i stick to using old zerogs + newer pcsx2 for higher compatibility .( for example doa2 didnt work for ANY older version of pcsx2 but i was able to get its polygon count like with the method i just said).
27K tris per frame x 60 fps



I do have one request, there was a cancelled dreamcast game called ephemeral fantasia by konami. They admitted to porting it to ps2 and cutting out exclusive dreamcast content but it still very much looks and plays like a 1st gen dreamcast game. Whats your opinion on it?

[Yharnamresident]

I do have one request, there was a cancelled dreamcast game called ephemeral fantasia by konami. They admitted to porting it to ps2 and cutting out exclusive dreamcast content but it still very much looks and plays like a 1st gen dreamcast game. Whats your opinion on it?

Smart thinking, I added it to my PS2 list. Makes me wonder why it was cancelled, it was cancelled in mid-1999 when the Dreamcast was in its prime.

Also sadly because of circumstances, this game probably would've had the best RPG graphics on Dreamcast.



So I'm looking through this thread for posts on Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2, got the entire Dreamcast setup open right now.

[Cloofoofoo]

Smart thinking, I added it to my PS2 list. Makes me wonder why it was cancelled, it was cancelled in mid-1999 when the Dreamcast was in its prime.

Also sadly because of circumstances, this game probably would've had the best RPG graphics on Dreamcast.



So I'm looking through this thread for posts on Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2, got the entire Dreamcast setup open right now.

You must really dislike skies of arcadia then. In its generation its always remembered fondly with good reason too,good game, great effects. Konami had no real intent to support the dc plain and simple. Air force delta was the most serious game they did on the dc. They cancelled this game and zone of the enders on the dc.

This game while amusing its still pretty low tier for an rpg i would say, probably time stalkers is better.

[SegaAMD]

I would like you to measure the polygonal count of Street Fighter ex3 on Boss stage, temple stage and canyon stage with 4 chars on the screen at the same time, it must exceed 2M pps.

Ephemeral Fantasia is beyond the capabilities of Dreamcast, despite being weak by PS2 standards the game features very detailed models, nice textures, separate fingers and great stages. Yes, Skies of arcadia is more beautiful but each game is a game not to be directly compared.

[Cloofoofoo]

I would like you to measure the polygonal count of Street Fighter ex3 on Boss stage, temple stage and canyon stage with 4 chars on the screen at the same time, it must exceed 2M pps.

Ephemeral Fantasia is beyond the capabilities of Dreamcast, despite being weak by PS2 standards the game features very detailed models, nice textures, separate fingers and great stages. Yes, Skies of arcadia is more beautiful but each game is a game not to be directly compared.

Have you even played the game? Random points of the maps black out to load the rest , characters animation that make sword of the berzerk look like Hollywood mocap. Speaking of sword of berzerk already looked better than this game and so did evolution 1 and 2 heck maybe even carrier. This game polygon is pretty low for your info barely spikes to 15k Tris per frame and lighting is none existing except for night time.

[SegaAMD]

I didn't play but I saw some gameplay.

I can say that things aren't so simple, Berzerk Looks more beautiful, Skies of Arcadia, Grandia 2 and
perhaps Time Stalkers, but there is a concept that separates one game from another, Ephemeral Fantasia has a scope that resembles Grandia 2.

Now see the polygonal frame count for Grandia 2 and Skies of arcadia, it is very low. The models in these games have glued fingers, Grandia 2 some enemies have separate fingers. Ephemeral Fantasia from what I saw appears to be 60fps, If such a game keeps loading screen all the time on the PS2 that has more ram, what could we expect from a Dreamcast version?

[Cloofoofoo]

I didn't play but I saw some gameplay.

I can say that things aren't so simple, Berzerk Looks more beautiful, Skies of Arcadia, Grandia 2 and
perhaps Time Stalkers, but there is a concept that separates one game from another, Ephemeral Fantasia has a scope that resembles Grandia 2.

Now see the polygonal frame count for Grandia 2 and Skies of arcadia, it is very low. The models in these games have glued fingers, Grandia 2 some enemies have separate fingers. Ephemeral Fantasia from what I saw appears to be 60fps, If such a game keeps loading screen all the time on the PS2 that has more ram, what could we expect from a Dreamcast version?

i think you forgot i activated grandia 2 debug menu which includes a polygon counter. At the minimum it matches ephemeral fantasia and seems to push at max up to double the count per frame of course at half the frame rate. But its also not afraid of using specular lighting which ephemeral fantasia seems to lack completely. And oh the stages are bigger with less loading so your point?

The scope in skies of arcadia is actually bigger because there are no loading screens as everything is streamed from disc which is probably the reason its low poly at 30fps. Not to mention it too was lighting heavy. Ephemeral phantasia isnt doing anything special.

Ephemeral fantasia took the blue stinger / card captor sakura approach and pumped the characters polygon count while sacrificing the detail on the environment.
And even if we take that approach 1 character from card captor if enough to push more polys on screen that what the ephemeral fantasia does for the whole scene!

Edit: I ma glad you mentioned the sperate fingers thing, because on the Dreamcast there is a game called the ring , all enemies, NPC, players have all fingers but when extracted off the disc the models are less than DC raziel around 700 to 1000 Tris( including the final boss sadako). It's a shit gane but just something you should keep in mind.

[SegaAMD]

A game having individual fingers rendered is a sign of detailing and high polygonal counting, cartoonish games really manage to make separate fingers using 700 polygons, looking at the characters in The Ring I thought it had more than 700-1k polygons, so they with 800 polygons is very impressive.