Computer publishers and developers of the 80s.

[rusty]

. But anyway, Americans were willing to spend in order to get the better gameplay and graphics NES games had.

You do realise that the NES was essentially a C64, but with all the patented bits removed? Right? The 6502 core that Ricoh copied lacked all of the stuff that Chuck Peddle had patented, like instruction pipe-lining. And graphically, it was less capabale but the programming model and registers were mapped in a similar fashion.

You should see Armalyte on the C64. And if the NES was oh-so-superior, I guess Giana Sister never happened.

[Kamahl]

The C64 could have given the NES a good challenge graphically if used properly (it never was, not in a single game). Some guy made a quick game demo showing off how good it can look but unfortunately I can't find the video and lemon64 is down .

You do realise that the NES was essentially a C64, but with all the patented bits removed?

This is wrong on so many levels... wtf? It has the same CPU (almost), but that's it. Graphically and aurally they're completely different.

This game/demo is cheating a bit (it can only manage 2 large sprites per line, and doesn't scroll), but it's still a good example:

[rusty]

This is wrong on so many levels... wtf? It has the same CPU (almost), but that's it. Graphically and aurally they're completely different.

Are you sure about that? The Ricoh 6502 wasn't really a 6502 at all because it was just a copy of its capabilities. And the PP was laid out a little differently, but in terms of features is was a less capable VICII. I had this chat with my bosses at the first place I worked with who worked on a lot of 8-bit stuff, including the NES, C64, Spectrums etc. I had done C64 stuff as a kid and mentioned this. One of them piped up "oh, you would have loved the NES then...it was pretty much a C64 with all the patented bits removed".

[gamevet]

I hope you were being sarcastic Kamahl. Guruss was a rock-solid port on the C-64; the NES version wasn't better, that's for sure.

[Kamahl]

I hope you were being sarcastic Kamahl. Guruss was a rock-solid port on the C-64; the NES version wasn't better, that's for sure.

When did I talk about Gyruss?

Are you sure about that? The Ricoh 6502 wasn't really a 6502 at all because it was just a copy of its capabilities. And the PP was laid out a little differently, but in terms of features is was a less capable VICII. I had this chat with my bosses at the first place I worked with who worked on a lot of 8-bit stuff, including the NES, C64, Spectrums etc. I had done C64 stuff as a kid and mentioned this. One of them piped up "oh, you would have loved the NES then...it was pretty much a C64 with all the patented bits removed".

1. Nobody cares about the CPU like I mentioned.
2. The NES might work similarly to the C64, but it's completely different:
- 2bit highres tiles
- 256 pixel resolution
- Palettes
- VROM
- VRAM
- 64, high-res, 2bit, 8 pixel wide sprites, with 8 per line.
- Mirroring of the char map for scrolling
- Lacks vertical interrupts without mappers (C64 has bad lines every 8 pixels by default but you can get them every pixel).
- Completely different audio.

It does not share a *single* characteristic with the C64 other than the similar CPU, that's like saying an Atari ST and a Sega Genesis are the same thing.

[j_factor]

The NES video chip was more versatile (or at least easier) in terms of color. It has 54 unique colors; you can have four sets of three-color sprites and four sets of three-color tiles, plus one additional background color. On the C64 you have three-color sprites, but each sprite has one unique color and the other two are shared across all sprites. On the Atari, there are 256 possible colors, but this is based on a master set of 16 colors with 16 possible values for luminosity. It's easy to use different shades of the same color, but not so easy to use completely different colors in conjunction.

[gamevet]

When did I talk about Gyruss?

The C64 could have given the NES a good challenge graphically if used properly (it never was, not in a single game). Some guy made a quick game demo showing off how good it can look but unfortunately I can't find the video and lemon64 is down .

This!

[Kamahl]

On the Atari, there are 256 possible colors, but this is based on a master set of 16 colors with 16 possible values for luminosity. It's easy to use different shades of the same color, but not so easy to use completely different colors in conjunction.

The atari is a lot more restricted than that, it only has 4 colours for the entire background (5 if you use char mode), and only 5 sprites of a single colour each (and that 5th sprites uses the same colours as the 5th background colour). It can change the colours every line, but you don't have that much time to change them (you can't change all 9 if you're multiplexing sprites too), and you're still limited in how many you have per line. That's why it's games typically look like this when devs don't even bother:

This!

NES gyruss:



C64 gyruss:


Now the C64 might play a lot better, but it sure looks a lot worse. Like I said, the poor machine was never used correctly as far as graphics go. Compare that to Quod Init Exit I posted above.

[NeoZeedeater]

NES Gyruss was more of a remake years after the C64 port anyway.

[j_factor]

The atari is a lot more restricted than that, it only has 4 colours for the entire background (5 if you use char mode), and only 5 sprites of a single colour each (and that 5th sprites uses the same colours as the 5th background colour). It can change the colours every line, but you don't have that much time to change them (you can't change all 9 if you're multiplexing sprites too), and you're still limited in how many you have per line. That's why it's games typically look like this when devs don't even bother:

Yeah, that's what I was getting at, though I had forgotten the number of background colors.

The C64 version of that game looks worse. The Atari version of Rescue on Fractulus also has better color than the C64 version.

[gamevet]

NES gyruss:



C64 gyruss:


Now the C64 might play a lot better, but it sure looks a lot worse. Like I said, the poor machine was never used correctly as far as graphics go. Compare that to Quod Init Exit I posted above.

The C-64 seemed to have more stars flying by as well. Yeah, the NES version had slightly larger sprites, but that was about it.

I might dust off the systems tonight and make a direct comparison.

[Kamahl]

NES Gyruss was more of a remake years after the C64 port anyway.

Which makes it all the weirder why the hell it was brought up... I still can't see any mention of gyruss in what I wrote.

Yeah, the NES version had slightly larger sprites, but that was about it.

Are you blind sir? The sprites are twice the resolution with way more colours!

The C64 version of that game looks worse. The Atari version of Rescue on Fractulus also has better color than the C64 version.

Rescue on Fractalus also plays much better on the atari. It has a much faster CPU and can do smaller resolutions, perfect for that kind of game.

[gamevet]

Which makes it all the weirder why the hell it was brought up... I still can't see any mention of gyruss in what I wrote.

You said that not a single game was better on the C-64. I brought up Gyruss, because I prefer it over the NES version. The NES version's music doesn't sound quite right either, compared to the arcade game.

Are you blind sir? The sprites are twice the resolution with way more colours!

Like I said, I'll check it out when I get home. Yes, the NES version has more colors, as well as more colorful stars, but it also has the infamous sprite breakup that a lot of games on the NES have.


Would you take offense to me thinking that Bubble Bobble is better on the C-64?

[rusty]

1. Nobody cares about the CPU like I mentioned.

Except, y'know...it's a key component when working with the graphics chip, and the same goes for the audio. You still need to plug those values into the mapped registers.

I'll admit I'm incorrect with the graphics and audio side of things. The NES isn't as good, but it's still pretty decent but one issue was that the palette was based on NTSC values, rather than RGB and the one massive advantage it had was the palette could be modified.

[Kamahl]

selective reading is bad gamevet, not once did i mention gameplay. c64 gyruss does play better. I was only speaking about the graphics.