Computer publishers and developers of the 80s.

[negative chill]

Does ABF even realize that most of the popular Japanese devs on his precious NES got their start on the MSX?

It's kind of a shame really that no major companies develop for home computers in Japan anymore though. It's all just indie and eroge related stuffs these days, which isn't to "poo-poo" it either

Well, the eroge stuff anyway >_>;

[j_factor]

... The NES isn't as good? If it's "not as good", graphically, then why are there exactly zero C64 platformers I've ever seen that match any better NES platformer? It clearly isn't as good, graphically. The NES's sprite and scaling hardware gives it a big advantage.

Scaling hardware?

So you agree that the NES has better graphics, then.

I wouldn't put it quite so universally. But yes, the NES has overall better graphics than most 8-bit computers, most of the time. The Atari 8-bit and C64 have advantages in certain particular areas. The MSX2 and Amstrad CPC Plus range have better graphics overall than the NES, at least in terms of colors and sprites, though the latter isn't exactly a major platform.

No, that actually isn't all that far away from what I was saying.

Uh...

"I'm sure the C64 and Atari 8-bit are quite competitive in things like horribly dated adventure games and RPGs, and probably are better for strategy games, but for any kind of action game... sorry, no way does what I've seen of C64, Apple II, or Atari 8-bit action games get anywhere near what you see on the NES."

Yeah, that's pretty far and away a different statement. As I said, I think the NES has a better selection of straight action/platformer games. But that's not the same thing as "any kind of action game", nor is it the same as saying nothing on the 8-bit computers "get anywhere near" what the NES has.

Stuff like worse graphics, worse scrolling, and limited color and number of sprites per line DO affect gameplay too though...

I don't see how graphics are really that relevant... I mean, if you're willing to play NES games, in 2014, how much do you care about graphics? The difference is pretty damn minuscule in the grand scheme of things. You'd be drawing an extremely precise, yet arbitrary line.

If I could stay awake through the half-hour long loading times C64 games apparently have, that is.

Don't use cassettes. You're not in the UK.

Also, use one of these:



With a fast load cartridge, loading times with floppy disk games are not bad.

...Or you could just play on an emulator.

Of course PC shareware games didn't even HAVE smooth scrolling platforming before 1990's Commander Keen, either, a significant limitation... were the 8-bit computers any better on that regard?

I don't think C64 or Atari 8-bit ever had much of a problem with scrolling... At least I played plenty of games that scrolled fine. MSX, PC, and Apple II definitely had difficulties though, yeah.

Poorly aged, for adventure games - text adventures, or games with a picture and text-input box. This is dated and, in my opinion, not sa good as games with full graphical interfaces. I managed to tolerate a few text or "type in the entry" adventure games back in the early '90s, but as soon as I played fully graphical ones like Lucararts games, there was no going back! The ones with text input are frustrating, dated, and not as fun.

A few non-text-based adventure games did pop up on the C64 though, like Maniac Mansion.

[NeoZeedeater]

With a fast load cartridge, loading times with floppy disk games are not bad.

Yeah, most C64 owners seemed to have this, in my experience. And later C64 games often loaded really fast on their own. I don't know what kind of software trick they did to do that. But even without all that, floppy load times weren't excruciating like cassettes.

[gamevet]

A few non-text-based adventure games did pop up on the C64 though, like Maniac Mansion.

Heart of Africa!

Yeah, most C64 owners seemed to have this, in my experience. And later C64 games often loaded really fast on their own. I don't know what kind of software trick they did to do that. But even without all that, floppy load times weren't excruciating like cassettes.

EA would use what they called "fast loaders" with some of their software.

And yet another arrogant post courtesy of our own Black Falcon~


Also, it's funny how much computers get glossed over when it comes to retro gaming. I know not a lot of people had them growing up and the ones that did used them strictly for business purposes (at least here in the US), but still, it's like people don't want to venture beyond what they already know

Yeah, businesses and schools were using IBM PC and Apple IIs, but there were a lot of early adopters for those platforms that did so for hobby. The Altair 8800 was nothing but a box with switches that hobbyists bought to tinker with, even though it was an expensive box. The Apply II was pretty much bought by hobbyists, until Apple came up with a spreadsheet program called VisiCalc in 1983.

I highly doubt people in North America were buying Atari 8-Bit and C-64 computers for serious business applications. Yeah, some would buy programs they could run to do home business and word processing, but the majority were being bought by people that wanted to learn how to program and for playing around with.

[gamevet]

The first two Last Ninja games are classics on C64. Most of the ports aren't very good, especially the busted NES one. I hope people don't judge the series by it.

The 1st was a 4 million unit seller. That's more units sold than Doom on the PC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ninja

Computer Gaming World stated "there is no exaggerating the graphic excellence of" The Last Ninja."[16] It was the most successful original game ever on the Commodore C64. In Europe, the sales for the C64 version alone were in excess of 750,000 units and international multi-format sales exceeded 2,000,000 units. According to System 3's Mark Cale, about 4 million copies of the game were sold in all.

[A Black Falcon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64

By mid-1986 Commodore had sold 3.5 million 64s. Although the company reportedly attempted to discontinue the C64 more than once in favor of more expensive computers such as the 128, demand remained strong.[31][32] That year Commodore introduced the 64C, a redesigned 64, which Compute! saw as evidence that—contrary to 64 owners' fears that the company would abandon them in favor of the Amiga and 128—"the 64 refuses to die".[33] Its introduction also meant that Commodore raised the price of the 64 for the first time, which the magazine cited as the end of the home-computer price war.[34] Software sales also remained strong; MicroProse, for example, in 1987 cited the Commodore and IBM PC markets as its top priorities.[35]

By 1988, Commodore was still selling 1.5 million 64s worldwide,[36] although Epyx CEO David Shannon Morse cautioned that "there are no new 64 buyers, or very few. It's a consistent group that's not growing ... it's going to shrink as part of our business".[37] One computer-gaming executive stated that the Nintendo Entertainment System's enormous popularity—seven million sold that year, almost as many as the number of 64s sold in its first five years—had stopped the 64's growth, and Trip Hawkins stated that Nintendo was "the last hurrah of the 8-bit world".[38] Although demand for the C64 dropped off in the US by 1990, it continued to be popular in the UK and other European countries. In the end, economics, not obsolescence, sealed the C64's fate. In March 1994, at CeBIT in Hanover, Germany, Commodore announced that the C64 would be finally discontinued in 1995.[39] Commodore stated that the C64's disk drive was more expensive to manufacture than the C64 itself.[39] However, only one month later, in April 1994, the company filed for bankruptcy.

Only 3.5 million sold by mid 1986, by which point the NES had been out for a year and was slowly growing in sales? Yeah, there are a lot of other formats too, but I really can't see any numbers at all that come even close to replacing what was lost in the crash. And there's no way to know what percentage were actually used for games.

Yeah, businesses and schools were using IBM PC and Apple IIs, but there were a lot of early adopters for those platforms that did so for hobby. The Altair 8800 was nothing but a box with switches that hobbyists bought to tinker with, even though it was an expensive box. The Apply II was pretty much bought by hobbyists, until Apple came up with a spreadsheet program called VisiCalc in 1983.

I highly doubt people in North America were buying Atari 8-Bit and C-64 computers for serious business applications. Yeah, some would buy programs they could run to do home business and word processing, but the majority were being bought by people that wanted to learn how to program and for playing around with.

I do not believe that there were ever millions of hobbyists buying computers to learn how to program... some, certainly, but millions, buying mostly for that? Can't see it. I'm sure that plenty of people DID use their cheap computers for various other applications (word processor, etc?); even if they weren't nearly as good at it as a better computer, it's better for nothing I would think! Serious business at work, maybe not for the most part, but business/productivity at home... certainly. I'm sure that'd be a far larger market than hobbyists. As for people buying them just for games, I'm sure there were quite a few of those, but not enough to replace the lost consoles.

The 1st was a 4 million unit seller. That's more units sold than Doom on the PC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ninja

Isn't that 4 million number an all-formats total? Sure sounds like it, going by the page there. Still impressive, though.

[gamevet]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64


Only 3.5 million sold by mid 1986, by which point the NES had been out for a year and was slowly growing in sales? Yeah, there are a lot of other formats too, but I really can't see any numbers at all that come even close to replacing what was lost in the crash. And there's no way to know what percentage were actually used for games.

That article is so wrong, for so many reasons. Just look at source #31 from Compute that talks about Commodore selling 1.5 million C-64s and another 600,000 C-128 (C-64 compatible) computers in 1985 alone. Here's a little math for you. 2 million C-64s sold in 1983 + 1.5 million C-64s sold in 1985 = 3.5 Million. Now start adding in the 2.5 million sold in 1984 and the 200,000 sold in 1982 and the number is closer to 6.5 million sold by the end of 1985 and if you include the C-128, it nearly 7 million. That's VCS like numbers for the equal time-span from launch.

It's funny that you should mention Epyx, because I have an Ice Climbing game they published for the C-64 @ 1988. They sure stuck around for quite a bit longer, for a platform that you are suggesting wasn't selling very well. http://www.mobygames.com/game/c64/final-assault

I have a sales chart I'd gotten from some website years ago. I'll post it later, after I've finished my errands for the day.

[NeoZeedeater]

I don't understand ABF's insistence that computer game sales in the mid '80s have to equal console game sales of the early '80s or they don't count. That doesn't seem to be the point of this thread judging by the first post.

Some will say that game publishing and development came to a stand-still, with the death of the console, while I will argue that game development became stronger than ever with the rise of the home computer. Here are just a few examples.

I totally agree that game development became stronger. Computer gaming had a larger number of developers than the early consoles, and they were breaking ground with deeper experiences than was possible before in addition to often having more advanced arcade ports. It wasn't a dead industry sales-wise. And sales aside, it was an even better time to be a gamer than before.

The internet is full of people that remember little from the '80s outside of the NES. There's often some resistance when people praise '80s computer gaming, pre-NES consoles, or the SMS but it's important to inform them and newer generations of gamers that Nintendo wasn't the only one with a good game system back then.

[gamevet]

I don't understand ABF's insistence that computer game sales in the mid '80s have to equal console game sales of the early '80s or they don't count. That doesn't seem to be the point of this thread judging by the first post.

I guess he gets the impression that once people stopped buying the home computers in droves, that it meant that they had quit buying software. If they didn't move onto the NES or SMS shortly after they had arrived, their only other options were the 16-bit computers from Atari, Commodore and Apple, or continue to enjoy the computer they had invested so much time and money into. It's not like the Europeans were the only people that hung onto their little 8-bit computers.

I totally agree that game development became stronger. Computer gaming had a larger number of developers than the early consoles, and they were breaking ground with deeper experiences than was possible before in addition to often having more advanced arcade ports. It wasn't a dead industry sales-wise. And sales aside, it was an even better time to be a gamer than before.

The internet is full of people that remember little from the '80s outside of the NES. There's often some resistance when people praise '80s computer gaming, pre-NES consoles, or the SMS but it's important to inform them and newer generations of gamers that Nintendo wasn't the only one with a good game system back then.

I definitely think is was the most innovative times for gaming. You went from console games that were pretty much trying to mimic the arcade experience, to a platform that opened up so many new genres.

[j_factor]

I guess he gets the impression that once people stopped buying the home computers in droves, that it meant that they had quit buying software. If they didn't move onto the NES or SMS shortly after they had arrived, their only other options were the 16-bit computers from Atari, Commodore and Apple, or continue to enjoy the computer they had invested so much time and money into. It's not like the Europeans were the only people that hung onto their little 8-bit computers.

As I said before, there were still significant releases coming out for the C64 in 1991. Clearly the market had staying power.

[gamevet]

As I said before, there were still significant releases coming out for the C64 in 1991. Clearly the market had staying power.

Yeah, I was buying titles until 1989. I had bought an Amiga 500 that year and started to focus on buying titles for it after that.

The North American cracking scene lasted into the mid-90s and one group started back up in 2011.

http://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/rec...ap&country=usa

Founded in early 1989 by Hot Shot. They imported and cracked wares and were based in Canada. Early members include Rich and later Extremist, but two additional recruitments were quickly done; well known original supplier Problem Child/ATC as well as the hack/phreaker Tristan. The group died but was then later rebuilt when Rich and Extremist met Booze at a local copy party. Before the rebuild, they offered their services to INC who refused, so Empire was then relaunched. Booze went on to become one of the most skilled NTSC fixers in the scene, especially after his fix of the "unfixable" game Creatures (imported from Manowar). The group shared some big name boards also, such as Channel Zero, Mystic Cavern, Holiday Inn Cambodia and Divine Ultimatum. Eventually the group slowed down in 1994 before halting completely in 1995. They enjoyed popular partnerships with several European groups and finally got hard fought recognition as one of the few big groups to come from Canada.

Trivia: Empire members Rich and The Mercenary are brothers. Their fake label was called Burp.

Founded in 1991 by Carcass and Moloch. Originally they decided on other names for the group, such as Convicts, Untouchables, Forced Entry (intro completed), and finally Armageddon. They did around 50 releases and had the famous Holiday Inn Cambodia as their BBS (amongst others).

Trivia: A hacker calling himself The Trooper (from Texas) joined and performed well for a while, one night he was called into a conference. His father answered the phone with a really funny Texan accent. The ARM members asked to speak with The Trooper, his father said "He is out feeding the pigs". The guys in conference burst out laughing and he was then kicked from the group within about 10 minutes. In 1996 a new fixer joined by the name of Kingpin, which was really Fungus under a fake handle. Armageddon's fake lamer label is Afros.

The group hasn't been formally dissolved and has been seen releasing again in 2011!