SMS VS NES

[StarMist]

Here's a link to a previous SMS vs NES tech discussion.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...ior-to-the-NES

Well done Zoltor.

[kool kitty89]

He means midframe palette updates. Water effects, sky gradientes, etc.., but also used to actually get more colors instead of simply being a neat effect. The Z80 is far too slow to update a lot of colors though, and you'll end up getting snow like on the MD.

That slowness shouldn't be a problem for simple sky gradients and such. (ie changing just 1 color)

Do you mean using colour emphasis? or just the two master pallettes compared to each other?

We all know the NES handles pitch black pretty well with its 10 shades of black, but what other colours does it naturally have more shades for than SMS? doing a half-assed comparison with my untrained eye (without emphasis tricks) the SMS looks like it has more shades of blue, more shades of green, more shades of mauve, and more shades of yellow, NES has more shades of brown, black (all shades look identical), and maybe red (SMS seems to have a lot on pink and purple colours instead)

Also, according to something I've read on Nesdev forums (could be a rumour) not all versions of the PPU had the two shades of grey which usually appear on the far right of the pallete, so Nintendo advised developers not to use them (and apparently very few licensed games actually do use them)

I'm talking about the NES's colorspace (ie master palette) in general . . . sure, there'sa few less usable colors in the NES's colorspace than 6-bit RGB, but there's many more shades and lower-contrast colors by comparison. (ones that work better for shading/gradient effects -albeit, not on par with the VCS or -especially- A8/7800 master palettes)
On top of that, using mid-frame palette swaps could be even more useful on the NES with its extra color control (each scanline would still be limited to using 1 tinted variant of the palette of the 8 possible, but still useful for some effects like water/ligting or such -for water, you'd obviously shift the palette towards blue or cyan)

6-bit RGB has a nice spread of colors with high contrast, but that's only useful for some types of art and pretty limiting for others. (similar to comparing the Speccy's RGBI with the C64 palette, though perhaps not as extreme as that)
Sky gradients would be among the things it's poor at . . . especially compared to the old Atari palettes. (which are actually better for that than 9-bit RGB in many respects)


Tomaithous made a more complete argument over the superiority of the NES's custom Y/C palette before too, actually in that thread StarMist posted iirc. (granted, they probably could have made a significantly more optimized custom 64 color palette than what's currently there -not sure why all the blacks are there)

[Zoltor]

Here's a link to a previous SMS vs NES tech discussion.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...ior-to-the-NES

Well done Zoltor.

Thank you.

I'm not really into those tech/specs debates, because I find it rather dumb(since the capeables don't matter, if the game developers don't know how to use such, which is a common issue with Sega's early consoles).

[TmEE]

I don't see the superiority of NES palette anywhere. It seems cumbersome to set up and manage, colors are funky, lots of one kind of stuff, nothing of other and quite a few near redundant shades...
RGB palette is most definitely better, its easy to create colors and adjust them, on hardware or artist side.
Palette is not such a big problem though, what kills the NES is 3 colors per tile, it makes all the difference.
Tilemap mirroring stuff is worthless on NES, tilemap thats so much bigger than the screen is useless for most uses, you only update one column and row when scrolling which is offscreen and having a whole lot of offscreen content gives nothing especially when its never used.
Soundwise NES kills SMS when it has no FM, with FM it gets the other way mostly. DPCM channel of NES is fun, and sample playback methods on the PSG are all quite bad, partly due to log curve and partly because of not enough filtering to make good PWM or PDM, which are extremely noisy, moreso than just PCM.
Banked VRAM of NES is awesome though, it makes animation stuff easy and instant. I am right now exploring on-cart DMA for SMS to close the gap. You could easily transfer 100 tiles per VBL for sure instead of 70 (PAL) or 35 (NTSC) with DMA, or even more, I am not yet sure how many cycles the VDP needs between each VRAM access. on MD you get one access every 2 pixels, on SMS I would believe every 4 pixels due to 16 bit VRAM bus. I have yet to experiment with real hardware. Preliminary calculations suggest I could transfer 320 tiles per frame, which is awesome
NES without extra stuff in the cartridge is quite puny, SMS never had stuff in the carts, but once you put something it can obliterate NES :P

NES does have shitton of awesome games, and I am not too familiar with all SMS has to offer but I have seen quite some lovely games.

[Orchid87]

We can argue about the tech superiority forever but the fact is that NES more amazing titles in it's library. With such devs as Konami, Capcom and Technos NES was the superior console library wise.

[StarMist]

This is a conflation of a few lists I'd made for myself. The grouping is partly by game type, partly by alphabet, partly spontaneous recall.
Unfortunately the site and my browser refuse to maintain spacing so comments run into titles, but everything should be clear if not tidy.

NES: BEST & ENJOYABLE GAMES LIST

* = Best Game
# = Enjoyable but below the list's standard (which are unmarked)


* Gunnac rabbits!
Bart vs the Space Mutants way better than the Sega machines’ fiasco.
* Super Mario 3
Super Mario 2 this is a measure of how stingy I tried to be with my asterisks
Super Mario
* Super Contra
Contra Force
# Contra the flicker and white bullets piss me off, but still I want to some day see it through
Double Dragon III
Double Dragon II
# Double Dragon
Lolo (2 of 3) can’t recall whether Famicom’s Eggerland is a separate game; if so add it
Sky Shark
* Bayou Billy this game requires a basic mastery of alligators to be enjoyed
* Final Fantasy
* Dragon Warrior
# Dragon Warrior II the lottery is bullshit
Dragon Warrior III
Dragon Warrior IV
Ultima: Quest of the Avatar
Rockin Kats
# Puss in Boots very short
Getsufuumaden
* Dragon Spirit
Abadox
Zanac
Star Soldier
Star Voyager
1942
* 1943
Gunsmoke
Alien 3 more run n gun than the exploratory Genesis masterpiece
Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (2 of the 4)
Air Fortress
Amagon
Asmik kun
Attack Animal Gakuen
# Atlantis no Nazo
Adventures of Tom Sawyer
# Adventure Island kind of cheap: only with a game genie
# Adventure Island 2 (ditto)
# Adventure Island 3 (ditto)
# Battle City
Bases Loaded 2 (all 4 are good though)
* Baio Senshi Dan
Metal Gear
# Bible Adventures
* Xexyz
* Astyanax
* Tecmo Bowl Bo Jackson, Marcus Allen, an aging Tony Dorsett, and the wildly overrated Kevin Mack.
Tecmo Super Bowl ouch the playbooks hurt to behold.
Blades of Steel
Bomberman (1 of 2)
Bubble Bobble (1 of 2)
Power Blade
Power Blade 2
Bucky O`Hare
* Burgertime
* Legend of Zelda
Chaos World
* Magic of Scheherazade
Lagrange Point
Juubee’s Quest
* Totally Rad
Werewolf
Cobra Triangle
Seicross
3D World Runner
* Dino Riki
Starship Hector
Marble Madness goldenband talked it up so much now I want to play it
Snake Rattle n Roll
Ai Senshi Nicole
Swords & Serpents
* Guardian Legend
Startropics retrospectively overrated by those who think it obscure; above avg
Startropics 2 (ditto)
# Alfred Chicken
Arkista’s Ring
Banana Ouji no Daibouken
* Batman
* Batman Revenge of the Joker
* Battle of Olympus
* Iron Tank
Bump n Jump the only fun overhead racer
Roadblasters
Maniac Mansion
Dick Tracy
* Bee 52
Big Nose the Caveman
# Quattro Adventure minus Dizzy
Blues Brothers
Bonk’s Adventure I prefer this version
Boulder Dash
* Blaster Master
* Cocoron
Clu Clu Land
Cosmic Epsilon Space Harrier style with very solid graphics
*Faxanadu
Milon’s Secret Castle
Star Wars
Star Wars the Empire Strikes Back
Conquest of the Crystal Palace
* TMNT very flawed but very fun. Nevermind trying to complete it
* TMNT 2
Darkman
Nightshade
Crossfire
Thundercade
Rad Racer
Rad Racer 2
Galaga
Huge Insect
Duck Hunt
# To the Earth
Metal Mech
* Metal Storm
Laser Invasion
* Destiny of an Emperor has 1 serious flaw; great if you luck out not seeing it your first play
Shinsenden
Dezaemon
Dirty Harry
Getsufuumaden
* Little Nemo
Duck Tales
Duck Tales 2
Gradius
Gradius 2
Afterburner
Gyromite
Elevator Action
* Spelunker
Spelunker II
Crystal Mines
* Faria
* Felix the Cat
Fire Emblem Ankoku Ryu (&c)
Fuzzical Fighter
Captain America
Commando
Ikari Warriors (1 of them is enough)
G.I. Joe
G.I. Joe the Atlantis Factor
Gauntlet
Gauntlet 2
Ghostbusters II
New Ghostbusters II {{ PAL excl }}
Godzilla Monster of Monsters
# Bad Dudes
# Crazy Climber
Demon Sword
Legend of Kage
Golgo 13
Mafat Conspiracy
Elite
# Devil Man this game’s not too good but it has an Anger metre which is always a plus
Devil World Miyamoto’s take on Pac Man. Not my favourite genre but a solid exm of it.
Dig Dug II
# Tetris flawed high speed control
# Don Doko Don
Don Doko Don II
Donkey Kong
* Donkey Kong Jr
# Donkey Kong 3
SonSon
Super Pitfall this game has some crazy lv design, it's almost like a hack
# Door Door
MTV’s Remote Control antiquated pop trivia!
# American Gladiators
Double Moon Densetsu poor town and combat graphics but still solid
* Dusty Diamond’s All Star Softball
Circus Caper
Firehawk
Silkworm
Jackal
Operation Wolf
Legacy of the Wizard
Trojan
Mig 29 solid Space Harrier style bomber game from Camerica
Gyruss
# Section Z
Fushigi no Umi no Nadia
* Game Genie * did the SMS have anything like this? Either way it’s great.
Gremlins 2
Gumshoe
* Guerilla War
Hammering Harry
Double Dribble
* Heavy Barrel
* Moon Crystal
# Moon Ranger decent potpourri game
# Hello Kitty World just because I have a Hello Kitty DS case.
# Gargoyles Quest II
Hi no Tori (is this a real game or only a ROM from MSX?)
Hogan’s Alley
* Holy Diver
# Ice Climber
* Little Samson
Miracle Piano Teaching System seriously with the keyboard attachment I’d be all over this
The Immortal
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade by Taito not Ubi or TecToy (Genesis version)
# Young Indiana Jones
Itadaki Street
* Isolated Warrior cool iso shmup
Freedom Force
Kid Icarus has that round-the-world open screen play style seen in some of Mario 3’s 7^th World
Journey to the West cheap graphics and the music is an ear infection, but plays well and fast w some charm
Kick Master these graphics are what happen when you try to make the NES look like the TGFX. Still fun.
# King’s Knight like Millipede with forced vert scrolling.
Millipede
* Recca how in hell did it take me so long to list this game?
Krion Conquest Vic Tokai platformer with a witch. Like Megaman but quirky and hard.
Krusty’s Fun House hideous character sprite and music but very good lv design
# Labyrinth I may be imagining there’s more to this one than there is
# Legend of the Ghost Lion mediocre but faintly intriguing RPG
# Crystalis back in the day this game sucked due to its unfair/hidden lv-based trigger system. With online walkthroughs it’s doable though still unfair.
# Metroid this game’s rep was always far too high, but it looks nice and has some atmosphere
# Layla low budget run n gun
Robin Hood Prince of Thieves
Legendary Wings
# Tiger Heli the large amount of space one can’t advance in the screen is a problem
Life Force/Salamander preferably Salamander
# Silver Surfer could’ve been quite good with some lasting bosses
# Little Mermaid hmmm....
Lone Ranger
* Mission Impossible
# Mr Gimmick grossly overrated, but pleasant
# Ninja Crusaders
Ninja Gaiden
Ninja Gaiden II
Ninja Gaiden III
Zen: Intergalactic Ninja
Nuts & Milk forgotten puzzle platformer
Over Horizon hori with ideal usage of NES palette contrast
Elevator Action
Paperboy (1 of 2)
Pinball Quest
Silva Saga
Punch Out! Preferably Mike Tyson’s
# Punisher
Radia Senki
* Excitebike
Rolling Thunder
Rygar
# Sky Destroyer
Skykid
Solstice you think Kid Chameleon should’ve had saves?
Buzz and Walldog something like Kid Chameleon
Space Hunter there are times when the expression “wtf” means something good. A bit like the interior sections of Air Fortress except with Mario-full-speed movement
Wing of Madoola ever grumble to yourself “Athena looks too good”? fortunately this game’s enemy respawning isn’t gamebreakingly cheap
Spy vs Spy
Stinger
Tetsuwan Atom
Uncharted Waters
Werewolf
Willow
Wrecking Crew
Ys technically I’d prefer this on the TCD but the Famicom game is quite polished
Ys II ( ditto )
Asterix


BRIEF WORST GAMES LIST
Sunday Funday
Foton - The Ultimate Game on Planet Earth
Orb 3D
Peter Pan & the Pirates
8 Eyes
[[ 90% of Sachen and Color Dreams ]]
[[ a whole lot of Famicom exclusive platformers ]]
Track & Field 1 and 2
Total Recall
Back to the Future 2 & 3
Terminator
Roger Rabbit
Superman

[j_factor]

I am continually amazed that anyone actually likes Dragon Warrior. That is one of the worst RPGs I've ever played, and I say that without hyperbole.

[Bastardcat]

After revisiting it, I can agree that Dragon Warrior is one of the most boring games ever created. It has all of the excitement of a CD-i Interactive encyclopedia.

[Thenewguy]

At the risk of getting a "well duh!" Sonic The Hedgehog on SMS has a water palette swap, just in case its being overlooked -

I'm talking about the NES's colorspace (ie master palette) in general . . . sure, there'sa few less usable colors in the NES's colorspace than 6-bit RGB, but there's many more shades and lower-contrast colors by comparison.

I've been comparing the two palettes on and off for the last week, and I would say that this would have to be commented on a per colour basis, and not talked about as a whole.

For instance where it comes to blues, the NES colours pretty much have counterparts in the SMS palette which look similar to the same shades, then the SMS has its extra blues on top of those colours, obviously NES doesn't have enough shades of yellow for it to have a smoother shading transition than SMS (I would say that NES arguably only has one yellow colour in its pallette, with one other being a green-yellow mixture, whilst SMS has three different yellows), mauve also seems to have similar colours on SMS to NES, with extras on top of those. Green possibly fits what you're saying, SMS has more shades, but NES maybe has a little more balance of dark and light shades, dark red definitely shades better on NES.

All in all I would say they're fairly comparable for shading, with each system having certain colours as specialities.

Unless you live in EU (because the NES library was pretty bad in EU when compared to US, and Japan)

In comparison to Japan yes, but in respect to the US I think this is maybe an overstatement to be honest, most of the big titles came out in Europe, though many were very late. On the other side we got Over Horizon, Ufouria, Super Turrican, and the nice port of Elite, Hammerin Harry was alright, Mr Gimmick was alright, Parasol Stars was alright etc.

Not saying we had it better than the US, not even saying that we had a comparable level of quality, just saying it wasn't really bad in Europe. The only games which I can think of which were sorely missed were Crystalis, Vice, Metal Storm, Gun Nac, Zombie Nation, Mega Man 6 (albeit I think everyone had already lost interest by the time 4 was released anyway), Ninja Gaiden 3, and Silver Surfer (yes I like this game).

I'd say both US and Europe had it pretty bad in regards to RPGs compared to Japan, America got loads more than Europe for sure, but by the time they made it there they were very out of date. I'm not sure Dragon Warrior would've really mattered in regards to Europe if it had come out three years late like it did in the US (knowing Europe it would've been even later than the US too, released ~1990, at which point it had been irrelevant for 3 years odd)

[Kamahl]

That slowness shouldn't be a problem for simple sky gradients and such. (ie changing just 1 color)

No but the Master Palette is, not enough shades to make it worth it.

[NeoZeedeater]

I am continually amazed that anyone actually likes Dragon Warrior. That is one of the worst RPGs I've ever played, and I say that without hyperbole.

Nostalgia is a strong force. Nintendo gave it away for free with Nintendo Power and many had it as their first RPG.

I thought it was decent back in '89 but after coming off the mind-blowing experience of Phantasy Star, it felt like a huge step backward.

[sheath]

Dragon Warrior was my first RPG, and I ate it up. My imagination ran wild with the box art and the dragon enemies, I felt like I was in a whole different world while playing that game. But then, I owned a Master System and never wanted to pay $70+ for one of its RPGs an even passed on Phantasy Star II and Sword of Vermillion on Genesis in favor of less expensive Action games. My first personally owned RPG was Shining in the Darkness and Phantasy Star III, and I loved them both because they gave me that then old familiar feeling of being in another world.

In the last decade I went back and collected all Master System RPGs along with Crystalis (not technically an RPG I know), Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy. I have completed all three Master System RPGs in an impulsive gaming marathon, whereas I gave up on Crystalis, couldn't get into Dragon Warrior and really just don't get the appeal of Final Fantasy. I even thought I would be amused with Final Fantasy because I used to read that web comic that used its characters, but nope, nothing, it failed to hook me.

This testimony has no bearing on the quality of any game ever, but there it is.

[Zoltor]

I am continually amazed that anyone actually likes Dragon Warrior. That is one of the worst RPGs I've ever played, and I say that without hyperbole.

Um... it was like the first RPG, and while it didn't have the refinement of the ones after it(It's bare bones), thus seems meh today, when we have a metric ton of greats, but it was grounbreaking when it first came out, to the point that it very much belongs in such a list(It's not like the title of the topic asked for a top 10 list or something).

In short, like it or not, It's still a good game, It's just there are so many amazing RPGs out there now, it just makes it seem meh/pointless to play.

[NeoZeedeater]

Um... it was like the first RPG

Wha? It wasn't even close to the first RPG. The genre was on computers since the mid '70s and consoles since 1982.

[Black_Tiger]

That slowness shouldn't be a problem for simple sky gradients and such. (ie changing just 1 color)

I'm still not sure exactly what you're saying the SMS shouldn't be able to do, but many SMS games have animated water and lava and misc objects which color cycle gradients, the same as 16-bit games. There are also full and partial screen tinting effects, which go through more than a single color/shade.

Um... it was like the first RPG, and while it didn't have the refinement of the ones after it(It's bare bones), thus seems meh today, when we have a metric ton of greats, but it was grounbreaking when it first came out, to the point that it very much belongs in such a list(It's not like the title of the topic asked for a top 10 list or something).

In short, like it or not, It's still a good game, It's just there are so many amazing RPGs out there now, it just makes it seem meh/pointless to play.

Dragon Warrior is extremely deep and sophisticated compared to too many major RPGs being released in recent years. It also has better music than too many major modern games, which try to mimic ambient film soundtracks.