Which games have scaling and rotation?

[sheath]

Ah, okay, I have tried to eyeball it like that before but wasn't sure. Road Rash SMS has smoother transitions than Super Mario Kart even. I used to figure that scaling distoritions were proof enough, but they can just pre-render without redrawing the sprites as well I'd imagine. I wish overclocking the 68k did more than just speed everything up, I'd like to see Road Rash at 60FPS at the same scroll speed.

[zetastrike]

EA could've either used the ASIC or the CD's faster 68000 for that version of Road Rash. Would the faster 68000 have made much of a difference?

[sheath]

The Sega CD CPU should software scale about 50% faster if the game isn't framerate locked.

[A Black Falcon]

Yes, accuse someone else of making baseless assertions pulled out of their ass because you NEVER EVER do that. That's not the ABF way.

More personal attacks instead of actually attempting to answer the question? What are you people so scared of?

"But.... It only counts if it's using an ASIC that's dedicated to scaling"

Just look at any of the games on that list that actually do manage to do real-time scaling, and compare it to arcade games with hardware scaling. I'll wait. You'll notice that it's a vastly different thing and what you see on the Genesis is so inferior that it clearly is not in the same category.

After all, if you were right, games like Outrun or Space Harrier II on the Genesis would actually play well and would use sprite scaling, because of course the Genesis can do real sprite scaling, right? But no, it can't. Road Rash is about the best you people can come up with, if that is indeed real scaling (is there proof?), and that games' framerate is so atrocious that it shows why it wasn't done. Occasional neat visual effects, while nice, are not the same thing at all as super-scaler style hardware scaling, which you need to have to be able to really say that a system supports scaling and rotation. Just being able to occasionally manage a maybe-real scaler effect somewhere in a game as a little effect, but not full screen and not in a super-scaler-style title, is not what anyone would mean when they ask "does the Genesis support scaling and rotation?".

[madmax2069]

How about the rotation on those enemies at 1:00:00 and 1:02:32?

[/QUOTE]

I was always impressed with the visuals in this game, just never cared for the music in it.

The boss battle at 48:50 was always neat to look at.

[zetastrike]

More personal attacks instead of actually attempting to answer the question? What are you people so scared of?

Because this is how every argument with you plays out:

You: "It's an objective fact that *insert random assertion you thought up two minutes earlier*. Prove me wrong, idiots"

Someone else: *Posts video/article/spec sheet/whatever that puts a serious dent in your previous assertion*

You: *Backpedals and moves the goal posts so you haven't been proven wrong (in your mind).* Because you're a legend in your own mind and are never wrong.


Answer me this: the N64 doesn't have dedicated sound hardware. Does that mean it's sound isn't real? It's certainly not up to the quality of previous consoles with soundchips.

And for shits n giggles, let's pretend that Road Rash, or Outrun, or Space Harrier, or any scaler/linescroll game had been ported to the SNES or PCE. What examples we have show that they're no better or worse on the MD's contemporaries. This "no scaling/rotation" crap isn't the MD's deficiency alone. And before you reply, scaling one background layer is a lot less useful than sprites unless you want to drive across a carpet or have a scaling "sprite" against a black backdrop.

[A Black Falcon]

Because this is how every argument with you plays out:

You: "It's an objective fact that *insert random assertion you thought up two minutes earlier*. Prove me wrong, idiots"

Someone else: *Posts video/article/spec sheet/whatever that puts a serious dent in your previous assertion*

You: *Backpedals and moves the goal posts so you haven't been proven wrong (in your mind).* Because you're a legend in your own mind and are never wrong.

I wasn't wrong in this case because I was talking about hardware (or as-good-as-hardware) scaling and rotation from the beginning. I didn't specify that because I thought it was too obvious to need to mention, but of course you people always like to make up your insults...

Answer me this: the N64 doesn't have dedicated sound hardware. Does that mean it's sound isn't real? It's certainly not up to the quality of previous consoles with soundchips.

I've already addressed this in the other thread, you know. As I said there, if you can do software scaling that is every bit as good as hardware scaling and rotation, then for all effective purposes it's the same thing, though there is still a technical difference which is relevant. If you cannot do software scaling as good as hardware scaling and rotation, then your system doesn't really support scaling and rotation, it can just hack in a few effects here and there maybe.

That technical difference, between a system with hardware scaling and one with software scaling that's as good as hardware scaling, such as that on the 32X, DOES matter, since technical differences matter, but only on a theoretical level; as far as gameplay goes, of course, the two are identical.

When a system doesn't have either hardware scaling or software scaling or rotation as good as hardware scaling or rotation, it doesn't fully support scaling and rotation. For instance, the Atari Lynx has hardware scaling, but not rotation I believe; that has to be done in software and is noticeably choppy, while scaling looks nice thanks to the hardware support. Apart from the Neo-Geo, the Lynx is the only 4th gen console (TV or handheld) with hardware scaling.

And for shits n giggles, let's pretend that Road Rash, or Outrun, or Space Harrier, or any scaler/linescroll game had been ported to the SNES or PCE. What examples we have show that they're no better or worse on the MD's contemporaries. This "no scaling/rotation" crap isn't the MD's deficiency alone. And before you reply, scaling one background layer is a lot less useful than sprites unless you want to drive across a carpet or have a scaling "sprite" against a black backdrop.

I agree with you here, yes. Of course the TG16 and SNES don't support scaling and rotation either. The SNES has Mode 7, but as you say, that's not full scaling and rotation support; it can only scale and rotate one background layer, not any sprites. That's a significant limitation.

As for Road Rash on the SNES or TG16, that'd be interesting to see... I wonder how fast they could manage it. I think the Genesis has the fastest CPU of the three, so it might run even worse on those systems... and Road Rash isn't something that could get much out of Mode 7. With an addon chip maybe the SNES version could get closer. As for the TG16, the system has some pretty good fake-scaling titles such as Outrun and Victory Run, so it can do a solid job at that. I don't know if anything actually tries to do real-time scaling, though...

[Bottino]

TinTin au Tibet rarely gets any praise for it's artistic design. The game's designers did an amazing job with the visuals. It captures the art style and feel of the comic and cartoon show perfectly.

Yeah, i agree with you, especially since Tintin ( the comic book/cartoon ) is a favorite of mine. I need to put some time aside to play this game properly.

Having said that, I don't believe that the game is utilizing scaling during stage 1. If you examine the video, each frame of the sprite is different as Tintin moves towards the screen.

Ah, i see. Thanks for the input

[j_factor]

Just being able to occasionally manage a maybe-real scaler effect somewhere in a game as a little effect, but not full screen and not in a super-scaler-style title, is not what anyone would mean when they ask "does the Genesis support scaling and rotation?".

Nobody asked that question, though.

[Bottino]

Let's imagine for a second that, in this thread, we're a bunch of kids playing a Basketball game in the schoolyard and having a good time.

Black Falcon is that one kid who comes and wants to change the game to a freaking Dodge ball match.

[superandroidtron]

I was always impressed with the visuals in this game, just never cared for the music in it.

I know it isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it does sound much better on real hardware than in this video. The emulator they used sounds tinny, and, in some cases, flat out wrong.

[Itszutak]

Let's imagine for a second that, in this thread, we're a bunch of kids playing a Basketball game in the schoolyard and having a good time.

Black Falcon is that one kid who comes and wants to change the game to a freaking Dodge ball match.

Well, if some kid wants to play dodgeball with a basketball...

[A Black Falcon]

Nobody asked that question, though.

That you're setting your standards so low is a pretty clear statement that you've essentially conceded that obvious fact (that Genesis scaling is nowhere near the level of hardware scaling), you just don't want to admit it.

Let's imagine for a second that, in this thread, we're a bunch of kids playing a Basketball game in the schoolyard and having a good time.

Black Falcon is that one kid who comes and wants to change the game to a freaking Dodge ball match.

You could

1) Actually try to figure out which of the games in the list in the OP actually use real-time scaling and which fake it.

or

2) Continue with the stupid irrelevant insults, while ignoring the fact that surely not all of those games actually use scaling or rotation, but instead fake it with various other visual effects. I absolutely think that the difference between actual, real scaling and faked scaling (with multiple sprites it switches between, animations, or what have you) is important! Listing things as "scaling" which actually aren't is deceptive. There are some Genesis games with real-time software scaling effects. The point here should be to find which ones they are, if that is possible.

[j_factor]

By the way, that X-Men 2 example earlier... I was wrong. I checked it with Gens Kmod. That's the real deal.

That you're setting your standards so low is a pretty clear statement that you've essentially conceded that obvious fact (that Genesis scaling is nowhere near the level of hardware scaling), you just don't want to admit it.

Of course the Genesis can't match hardware sprite scaling. If it could, they wouldn't have included that feature in the Sega CD. Show me where anyone said software scaling on the Genesis is just as good as hardware scaling, or that the Genesis "supports" scaling and rotation, a phrasing you've used in multiple posts already.

That doesn't mean that software scaling (and rotation) isn't a thing, or that it hasn't been done on the Genesis.

[OverDrone]

Any examples of software driven sprite scaling, as in not stepped pre-renders, are there on SNES or PC Engine just out of interest?

And I will mention again: Yu Yu Hakusho's line switching looks just as good as Fatal Fury 2's effect IMO, a game that runs on a machine with dedicated scaling hardware.