Voxels?

[BladeJunker]

VertexTexture_zps5b9f61d2.png voxel_pack_preview_114_zpse50be216.png Please ignore the EGA colors, just testing 4-bit color global palette limits.

I guess with voxels the first matter would be easier editing of models where I think vertex colored polygon cubes would be best. If you've tried some of the early voxel editors they are hard to operate and difficult to look at when sculpting and perceiving depth from layered 2D squares.

Polygon performance in the editor can be tricky on native hardware but only loading and drawing one model at a time helps. You don't really need an editor to run on the platform hardware but if your game involves user created assets it doesn't hurt EGs. Minecraft, SimCity, RPG makers, race track editors. There's always compromises like double wide pixel screen resolutions or slower rotation controls like moving only in short static values like 45 degrees.

Thought dither talk is relevant here as I would like to address how it 'falls apart' when the scale gets too small that switching to alternating lines makes the fields posterized shape hold up longer and that raising color contrast when the vertex is 2X2 or 1X1 pixel from dither to solid color can make distant polygons clearer. All of these visual limits tends to increase quite a bit when using a double wide pixel screen resolution like 160x224 or less.

Pretty basic transfer between polygon cube to raster voxel using voxel data structure. Funny how voxels often get mistaken as a form rather than a data structure, quite a few polygon skinned games these days with a voxel system underneath. Mostly I think sticking to cubes is just a smoother change over to 2D voxels.

I'm guessing raycasting cubes is harder on performance than 2D squares but mostly the ability to paint each side of a cube a different color makes voxel modeling easier. Yet again its a distance to perception matter so maybe 3 radius distances of Polygon, Raycast, and 2D Squares is in order.

VertexTexture01_zps06fa102c.png
Mostly been working from a standpoint of one construction scale cube roughly 5X5 feet to build a hull of mostly corridors probably with increases in voxel resolution isolated to doors and landmarks that can LOD through adjusting the octree.

SonicTheHedgehog1_zpsbb83a033.png
Don't think you can get away without using sprites to fill the world, 3D models are expensive enough that a good world hull is all you can expect. This matter has been tricky as the simple concept is that mock polygon look like Sonic games used that has a slight painterly quality to it but without some actual environmental resolution to look at I can't figure out how complex looking the polygon prerenders should be. Primarily I don't think regular sprite art and flat shaded surfaces match well so something like Virtua Fighter 1 is what human characters should look like.

I guess Cybercop is a good example of how much 2 visual standards can clash.http://gamesdbase.com/game/sega-genesis/cyber-cop.aspx

[Chilly Willy]

I like those vehicles in the second picture... very cool.

[BladeJunker]

I like those vehicles in the second picture... very cool.

Well that is somebody else's work, posted that to show intricacy and the challenges at modeling voxels using the older editors and the 2D square rendering. I think they are from a Command & Conquer pack, came across a few projects here and there like Doom with voxel models and Build engine games with sprites exchanged for voxel models. Bit of a lost art voxel modeling as it didn't last long after 3D accelerators took off but with Minecraft among others we've had a resurgence of people 3D modeling with blocks again.

[alextheman]

A.M.O.K. on Saturn is essentially a 32X port, I'm sure it is enhanced from the 32X game in some way but nobody has commented on how. I'd say Scorcher would have been a 32X game as well, but who knows what the speed difference would have been. When I first saw A.M.O.K. I seriously wished that all of the shoddy ports of PS1 games to the Saturn had ground up voxel engines instead, especially Thunderstrike II.

Strange, the part at 4:18 on this video looks like A.M.O.K minus lighting

[sheath]

That part probably is A.M.O.K.'s engine at least, if not how the game looked at that stage in development. I would assume it wasn't anywhere near finished due to the lack of enemies, bullets, or main mech.

[mic]

Strange, the part at 4:18 on this video looks like A.M.O.K minus lighting

Or not so strange:

Zyrinx did the polygon part and Jacob and I made the voxel part. Since the 32x died, zyrinx ported their engine and I ported our engine to Saturn. It had the same dual-SH2 processor setup, so it was quite easy to port. On the Saturn, Zyrinx of course switched over to use the hardware polygon rendering, while I stuck with voxels (and the processors were fast enough for me to keep a relatively steady 30fps in singleplayer mode and 20fps in dualplayer splitscreen :-) Zyrinx shipped "Scorcher" for Saturn and PC, and Lemon shipped "Amok" for Saturn and PC.

That's a quote from a member of Lemon where he talks about that 32X demo tape.

[sheath]

Or not so strange:



That's a quote from a member of Lemon where he talks about that 32X demo tape.

What is the source for that interview? I'd love to read it.

[zyrobs]

What is the source for that interview? I'd love to read it.

Not much of an interview, but one of the ex-zyrinx guys commenting on the first upload of the demotape.

http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=10686

[BladeJunker]

Would it be possible to render a decent amount of voxels on Genesis or Sega CD if you limited it to only few models on a regular 2D background like Resident Evil or Alone in the Dark? How about lowering the voxel resolution lower like 4X4 or 2X2 only, make something abstract but easier to render?

Robovoxel_zps2d3b5f3d.png
Been trying to make voxel designs in a schematic sort of way for now as practice although there are quite a few good modern editors for voxel blocks out there. Strange modeling, you're making a hull but also painting it at the same time.
Not a lot of range to be expected in low end voxels, about 3 LODs at with Source, Medium, and Far being typical. Can't get much more detail from resolution increases beyond what was done in the late 90s and by that I mean the visual fidelity increases sort of level off quickly that going beyond 320X240 graphics scale consumes a lot of system memory with little upgrade overall. Seems better to stylize details at a relatively low number of voxels than to chase smoother volumes from what is essentially Legos.

Some voxel related stuff I came across.
http://furballz.net/engine/
http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=45593
http://forums.newdoom.com/showthread.php?t=36458
http://gnarlyroot.com/3d-printed-par...game-concepts/
http://discourse.stonehearth.net/t/p...corner/203/310
http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php...=45680#p756808

Side thing, I bumped a thread in Sega CD Station on FMV as I got sidetracked by it lately, if you have any thoughts on that it would be most appreciated.

[Kamahl]

ZBrush has a feature where you can make 2 or 3 black and white pictures (front, side, bottom) and you get a 3D model out of it.

ZBrush is awesome.

[BladeJunker]

ZBrush has a feature where you can make 2 or 3 black and white pictures (front, side, bottom) and you get a 3D model out of it.

ZBrush is awesome.

Yeah Zbrush is cool, my buddy offered to buy that for me once but I felt it was overkill for what we were doing, can't say I didn't want to try it though. I came across a few of those auto-sculpters, pretty handy option.

Been using Blender because its free lol, was trying to vertex paint a quad model but I can't figure out how to apply one color per quad face.

Actually speaking of 'primary views' I had something I forgot to mention. I think its better to preserve relative volume through voxel LODs by starting lower and then whittling and rounding when higher, the model can really inflate when you model small and then switch to a larger voxel scale.

[j_factor]

Are there any examples at all of voxels on N64 or PSX?

[BladeJunker]

Are there any examples at all of voxels on N64 or PSX?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uZeF4AvxM0
Closest I could find was Commanche on the Snes so far, used a Super FX2 chip. Maybe some 3DO, Robinson's Requiem originally had voxels but I think it switched to polygons in port, guess that doesn't count.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdUeg0M3ybQ Nice texture, guessing terrain tile stamp voxels instead of single color squares.

[Chilly Willy]

Voxels are most commonly used for the ground, or for determining the visibility of an object. Using voxels for anything more than that will be beyond the power of old systems. Think of the voxel demos on the Amiga and Atari ST as an example, or that GBA game video I linked above.

The SegaCD can do voxels, but it will need highly optimized 100% assembly for the rendering code. I wrote a voxel demo for the SCD, but it runs like shit since it was all C code. Again, see demos for the Amiga 500 or original ST 520 as an example of what you could expect of the SegaCD.

EDIT: Furballs isn't a good example - it uses OpenGL and floating point for voxels. You can forget anything using floating point.

[BladeJunker]

Voxels are most commonly used for the ground, or for determining the visibility of an object. Using voxels for anything more than that will be beyond the power of old systems. Think of the voxel demos on the Amiga and Atari ST as an example, or that GBA game video I linked above.

The SegaCD can do voxels, but it will need highly optimized 100% assembly for the rendering code. I wrote a voxel demo for the SCD, but it runs like shit since it was all C code. Again, see demos for the Amiga 500 or original ST 520 as an example of what you could expect of the SegaCD.

EDIT: Furballs isn't a good example - it uses OpenGL and floating point for voxels. You can forget anything using floating point.

Thanks for the blunt projection, I'll go look at the Amiga and Atari ST stuff again. Kind of figured Assembler all the way would be a mandatory requirement, just goes with the territory of no extra slack in performance rate.

I trust your experience but 'used for the ground commonly' doesn't negate other uses unless you can explain why? Are you saying it couldn't render 1 or 2 low res voxel models alone if it weren't terrain? Terrain seems kind of big compared to for example a teapot? I have fairly low expectations on resolution quality but you're saying none or not at all?

Runs like shit I can handle, most of my references also ran poorly back in the day. You're probably thinking I had Doom or Quake in mind but was actually thinking more along the lines of turn based gameplay and semi static navigation like Hired Guns on Amiga, dungeon crawlers mostly but I guess Doom RPG could work. If I wanted fast rendering on Genesis or Sega CD it looks like simple raycasting is the way to go like Wolf 3D but not Doom2. Mostly I was trying for 3D level complexity through slower movement as sacrifice.

Sorry about Furballs, I should have said it's reference for getting a good look at a 2D voxel model appearance up close in HD compared to low res screen screenshots or badly compressed videos rather than canon to Genesis expectation, low res tends to mask defects you're trying to get a good look at. I also hope you didn't think I was comparing a platform with a glut of hardware resources to one with hard limits, without much reference you look at everything.